Could use help from fellow breeders

[TinysMom]

I have a very sweet lionhead doe named Pow Wow -I got her at Lionhead Nationals and I just love her. Like the majorityof lionheads I've experienced - she has a wonderful personality and iscurious and friendly and just....well....special.

When I bought her - she had been bred for me. She lost her first litteras they were born early and they were just too small to survive.

She lost her second litter too....if I remember right - they were small and sickly.

Today....she lost her third litter. She only had two babies this timeand they were a good size...but it looked like maybe she had a bit of ahard time delivering them and they were stretched out and sort ofnarrow. I'm probably not explaining it right.

I think I'm concerned about her ability to breed and have a litter born alive.

What really concerned me though was her attitude after she lost herlitter. She didn't have them in her nest (which was beautiful) and whenI took them out of her cage - she tried to attack me (very unusual forher). I showed them to her and let her sniff them after she tried toattack me and she sort of turned away and almost went and hid in hernest. She normally comes to see me at the door - but now she won't comenear me and just holds her head down and won't even look at me.

Meanwhile, another doe, Sundae had NINE babies. Actually - she had fiveof them yesterday and I was looking today and realized there were NINEbabies in there now.

I hope I did the right thing - I took 3 of Sundae's babies and put themin Pow Wow's nest. She mainly sits in her cage and looks at the nest.It does look like she has covered them up a bit better than I did - andif they aren't fed in the morning, I'll have plenty of time to givethem back to Sundae...but I want to give Pow Wow the chance to be a mombecause this time she was really prepared for it and really seemedexcited about her nest and stuff. I know...it sounds crazy.

But my question here is....if you were me - would you try to rebreedher again at some point - or just not use her for breeding anymore? Shehas a great personality to be a mother - but I don't want to put herlife at risk. I really do love her.

I guess part of my dilemna is that to me - she is such a special rabbitthat I wish I could have a baby out of her - but I'm thinking that Imay just keep her to be a pet.....

I was hoping maybe someone else had dealt with this and could share.

Peg

 

[Kadish Tolesa]

Sorry about Pow Wow. I had a HollandLop ( Maisy) that I really wanted to produce some kits for me. She wasabout 8 months when first bred, and she had 2 dead babies; they weren'tcannibalized or anything, and the 2 kits looked normal.

So we removed the stillborns and replaced themwith2 kits from a different H.L. that had 6 healthy ones.Maisy had not made a nest at all, though we'd supplied her with softstraw in a nest box , she did pull a little fur, but scatteredit all over.

Well, the next morning the kits were alive and fed , ANDcovered with an ample amount of fur. Maisy was bred once more 3 monthslater and gave us 2 healthy kits. We aren't breeding Hollandsanymore to concentrate on the Flemish giants. Maisy and the other H.L.doe have been sold to 2 young 4-H girls.

Our Melange whom we are keeping , was bred by accidentand had 1 kit. We like Melange so well that she will stay here as acompanion and not be bred anymore. I'd hate to lose her b/cshe's so sweet and calm.

Well I digress, but I hope all goes well with Pow Wow ! Keep us informed .

Kadish Tolesa inkpansy:

P.S., I haven't been showing/breeding rabbits very long,and sometimes wonder if I'm doing what's best for the beautifulcreatures under my care. Occasionally I have to resort to phoninganother breeder.

 

[TinysMom]

Hmm....I'm trying to figure out how to share this.

I put three babies in with Pow Wow last night. When I went back laterto check on them - she growled at me and had covered them up betterwith her fur....so I figured I had a good chance that she would acceptthem.

I did try to pick her up and check her to make sure she was done havingbabies but she fought me so hard and she looked fine so I put her backin the cage. I am horrible at palpating anyway.

I just looked in the cage a few minutes ago and there aren't three babies in the nest....there are ....

FOUR

babies.

SHE HAD ANOTHER ONE - AND IT IS ALIVE and HEALTHY!

I'm so psyched. I can tell this one apart as the others are tort and broken tort and this one is much darker.

I just had to share. I didn't get to pick them up and check them forbeing fed but they looked good from what I saw and I'm going to checkthem later tonight.

Oh - and she sort of growled at me again - which is very much unlikeher as she normally comes to see me at the door......but I'm takingthat to mean she's going to be a good mama.

Peg

 

[SunnieBunnie Rabbitry]

I recently had a situation sort of similar with a Rex doe...

She was the sweetest doe anyone could believe! Constantlylooking for attention and licking fingers, just an absolutelove-bug. Then I bred her and she delivered 2 livekits. Just 2. I decided that I was going to fosterthe 2 to the other doe who kindled the day before a litter of 3, andrebreed this doe since she has the Type that I'm trying to breedfor.

Well... 31 days later she delivered 2 kits. Both Alive andlooked great. But she wasn't her sweet self anymore - she waslunging at the cage before I even reached up to open it! Ihad to get her attention on the opposite side of the cage in order toreach in and pull out the nestbox to check! Normally, Ipalpate my does after delivery just as a precaution, but I wasn't goingto risk getting my arm ripped off by this girl, so I left her alone.

Later that afternoon, I noticed her pulling more fur. I wentto check the nestbox (again the attitude) and found still, only 2babies. So with the help of a long stick, I pinned her to thecage so I can reach in and get her to palpate. Sure enough -more babies inside. I massage her belly and try to getcontractions up again... but nothing until the following lateafternoon... a stillborn, partially canibalized. I palpatedher again - still more babies. She went on to pass anotherone, again canibalized. On day 34 she passed the last one -very long and stretched like a stuck kit. This one for thepurpose of not being too graphic, looked like it passed away a numberof days beforehand. Mom lost 1 of the 2 living babies when itwas 6 days old... it had been dragged out of the nestbox when nursingand was too chilled to be able to save it. The other onepassed yesterday at just shy of 2 weeks - it had started to leave thenestbox and mom attacked it.

This girl's attitude has not improved onebit since.I don't know if her attitude will ever go back to what it wasbefore. I don't know if I can trust her to raise anotherlitter herself - but I would really like to get a nice typed daughterto replace her.

Good luck with your doe Peg - I hope you have better results than I did.

~Sunshine

 

[TinysMom]

Oh - I have to share.

I was just feeding in the rabbitry and Pow Wow came right up to meagain and let me pet her. As long as I didn't put my hand near her nest- she was fine with me and she even ate out of my hand for a minute.

As soon as I put my hand towards the nestbox...she brushed it away withher head. I told her I was sorry but I had to check on her babies...andI cooed at her while I looked at them briefly.

ALL FOUR are fed and look fat and healthy. I've talked to both Art& Robin and neither of them put another kit in with her (Iwasn't sure as we had a kit somehow get out of the nestbox and onto thefloor early this am and Robin found it and put it back with its mama -I think it is because mama had knocked the nestbox on its side bymistake after feeding).

I'm so happy about this and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that her kitdoes well as it may be my only chance to get something out of her.

But I'm especially happy that my sweetie is back.

Peg

 

[Kadish Tolesa]

Congrats Peg on the 4th kit !!!! Gladto hear about Pow Wow !

:colors: K.T.

 

[TinysMom]

Well, I thought I'd just share a quick update. I just got done looking at the babies again (sort of).

Mama is just as sweet as can be - as long as I'm feeding her or giving her a treat and not going near her babies.

She doesn't bite me if I go near them but she tries to stand guard andnot let me near them. She lays beside her nest almost all the time andI frequently see her stretch a bit - sort of peek in at them....andthen settle down again. I swear she's saying to herself, "I finally didit.....I knew I could get it right."

All the babies are being nursed and one in particular looks very fat.One of them isn't as fat and I may take mama out tonight with that onebaby to see if she will nurse it some extra....

I'm just so excited - to have a kit out of Pow Wow - to have her be ok- and just for her to have the chance of being a mom. She just actslike she's pleased with herself...which sounds crazy probably but she'sjust so expressive usually.

Peg

 

[TinysMom]

I just HAVE to share this....it was so cute.

I guess maybe a baby was still attached to Pow Wow when she jumped outof the nest today because when I checked on her....there was a baby outof the nest.

It was tucked between her front feet and she was holding her head justabove it. I talked to her for a minute or two before I opened the cageand she stayed with the baby till I put my hand in there.

Then...she didn't growl at me - but she nosed me towards the baby as if saying, "Ok...you can pick this one up".

When I picked it up - it was just as warm as could be - as if it was still in the nestbox....

I KNEW she'd make a great mama....I'm so proud of her!

Peg

 

[SunnieBunnie Rabbitry]

That's so awesome to hear Peg.

I'm glad she's making the most of her first real shot at being amomma. She definately sounds like a permanent keeper!

~Sunshine

 

[TinysMom]

I thought I'd share a quick update on Pow Wow....

She's an AWESOME mommy.....so good with her kids. She's a bitfrustrated right now - their eyes have started to open (3 of the 4 haveopen eyes) and they have gotten OUT of the nestbox and are followingher around.

I put them back in the nestbox - only to have her baby climb right back out again and wander around.

I love babies at this age.....and it is so good to see her with them.I'm so glad I let her foster some babies and I'm so glad she had theone of her own. I may try to share pictures later on....

Peg

 

[gentle giants]

That's such a cool story, Tiny's Mom. People whohaven't raised them (and even some people who have, sadly) don'trealize how much they feel about their babies. I had a Mini Rex doelose an entire litter last winter, and she was so incredibly depressedfor weeks after, it about made me cry to see her.

 

[RABBIT#1]

I am so glad for you! She is such a great mom!

 

[TinysMom]

I thought I'd take a moment and share photos ofPow Wow's daughter. This is the one that was actually from her - notone of her fosters.

I never shared it on the thread but on the 2nd day she overcleaned herand the doe is missing about 1/2 of one of her back feet. But she stillgets around fine and she's a sweetie...





I just LOVE her face.

Peg

 

[bluebird]

I usually give does 3 chances too get it right.bluebird