Cecal Overproduction

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elrohwen

elrohwen

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Joined
Apr 15, 2009
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Location
Danbury, Connecticut, USA
I'm so bummed to be posting this - last night I started the cementing phase of my bunny bonding where both bunnies stayed in the same pen. This morning I noticed that Otto was acting ticked off - flipping his feet all over the place. I finally noticed that he had a huge ball of cecals stuck to his rear and end and he was flipping his feet trying to get it off.

He's hard to handle, so I'm not going to be able to clean him up alone - I already made an appointment to have the techs at my vet's office clean him up at 2pm.

But now I'm wondering if I should take him to see the vet too. He's just acting a bit uncomfortable and spending all of his time in the litter box, but this might just be that he doesn't like being poopy and thinks sitting in the litter box is better than the ground. He's otherwise pretty alert and is eating.

He probably ate his weight in hay last night during the bonding session, in addition to his usual greens (green leaf and romaine lettuce - he will only eat lettuces), so his diet hasn't changed. He hasn't had any treats in a few days either. He got his usual pellets and greens this morning and is eating pellets as we speak (which I will take away from him), so I don't know what in his diet could be a cause. He's never had poopy butt before. Any ideas? Suggestions?

So opinions - should I take him to see the vet for an exam?I know cecal overproduction can be normal, but ispoopy butt normal?If no on the vet exam, is there anything else I should do or watch for in the next day or two?

He had a negative fecal test in February and my new rabbit also had a negative fecal and full exam within the last few weeks.

Location: Connecticut

Description (Breed, color, weight): holland lop, 4.3lbs, broken black

Age: 1 year

Sex: male

Concise Summary of the Rabbit's Condition: cecal overproduction smushed onto bum; still eating and moving around, though spending most of his time in the litter box (which he never does usually)
 
A bunny breeder friend said that bunnies getting nervous cecal production is common, so he may be reacting from his first overnight with his new bunny partner. Could this be the case?

I'm definitely leaning away from actually seeing the vet, but I'd love to hear suggestions for feeding and possible causes.
 
Caecal overproduction is most commonly linked to a diet that is too rich. I know you know this but I'm just gona say it for the benefit of any readers who don't ;).

Many animals who eat vegetation can't/find it hard to process the plant material etc. and so have developed other means of doing so eg. cows have a Rumen (the fermentation vat), before entering the 'true stomach' which breaks down the vegetation as much as it can before the stomach does the rest. Rabbits have a caecum, which is quite similar to the rumen in cows. Unfortunately the caecum is located AFTER the stomach for rabbits, so not really in the right order. That means that it goes straight to the stomach first, where not all the nutrients and goodness can be extracted, and then to the caecum, which does the rest.
Rabbits produce caecals, which are eaten directly from the caecum, and are redigested, to get all that goodness back out, that was left in.

Rabbits that have a diet that is too rich, too 'good' even, don't need to eat their caecals, because they are already getting all the nutrients and kcals they need.

Caecals are the ones that look like a little bunch of grapes- normal poops from the "second" time around, are the round, harder, lighter ones.

If your bun is producing lots of caecals, and sitting on them, rather than eating them etc., that means either one of two things- he/she is overweight, and can't reach round to eat them directly from the caecum, OR their diet is too good, and in that case try reducing the number of pellets, and really pushing the hay. Bunny diet should be 75-80% hay.

Anyway- back to you Elrohwen :D

As you say he is 4.3lbs, he's obviously not overweight, so can eat the caecals if he wants to.
You also said he has recently had a fecal test and it was all negative? So I'm assuming he has nothing nasty causing it.

How much of the pellets would you say he gets a day? Lots? Has this increased a little lately?

Perhaps try really reducing his pellets and veggies, and just get him on the hay for a few days, to try and get it cleared up- maybe sort out his digestive system a little bit?

I'm glad the bonding is going well :)

Jen


 
Jen, his normal pellet ration is 1/4c Oxbow BBT per day. He's only a year old and not overweight, so I haven't reduced it yeteven though it's a bit much for his weight. This morning we gave them a 1/4c of Oxbow and a 1/4c of the other bun's food (still weaning her onto Oxbow, so it's about half Katee Timmy). But Otto only ate out of his own dish and only ate about half of it anyway. And I think he already had the cecal problem before he started eating his pellets (or at least it started right about when he got his breakfast, not after). He usually spaces that 1/4c out until 5 or 6pm, so it's not unusual that he only ate some of it this morning.

They both eat ridiculous amounts of hay during bonding, I guess because they're bored :p He probably ate twice his normal amount of hay over the course of last night, which is why this seems so weird. I'm going to take away the uneaten pellets and veggies (it's also normal for both buns to leave a good portion of the veggies and nibble throughout the day) and push hay for the rest of the day and night.

He had parsley available last night, which he has never had,because it's my other bun's favorite, but he sniffed it and wouldn't touch it, so I don't think he ate any of it (and I was up til 3am when the veggies were all gone, so I'm pretty certain he didn't have any).

eta: Excellent description of the common causes of cecal overproduction as well! :biggrin2:
 
When I went to put him in his carrier, he jumped in one litter box and lifted his tail. A second later he jumped out, ran to the other litter box and lifted his tail. There was no pee in either spot ??? Any ideas on this behavior?
 
Hmm....well if he seems totally himself, and eating loads of hay, then I am not entirely sure what to suggest lol :p.

I'm sure someone more knowledgable will come along.

It doesn't sound like he gets too many pellets, so that doesn't sound like the cause.

Maybe just keep an eye on it and it might clear up by itself in a few days? It could be the stress from the bonding- perhaps it's disrupted him a little, and he's ignoring his cecals?

Jen
 
elrohwen wrote:
When I went to put him in his carrier, he jumped in one litter box and lifted his tail. A second later he jumped out, ran to the other litter box and lifted his tail. There was no pee in either spot ??? Any ideas on this behavior?
Click to expand...
I'm in a rush so I'll explain myself a little better later, but perhaps this is also 'stress' from the bonding experiences? Maybe he is a little excited/stressed/ exerting his behaviour? Tail lifting and rushing around could be slightly dominant behaviour?

:)

Jen
 
Well, I noticed the tail lifting after I had taken the other bun out and put her in her own cage. It could be that though. He was being oddly territorial of the litterboxes and humping Hannah in them occasionally. Though in general he has a very submissive personailty. Other than that minor humping he has never exhibited dominat behavior.
 
It could be stress or a cecal bacterial imbalance. The stress could be from bonding, or maybe he's in pain--if the tail lift thing looks like he's trying to pee but can't he could have a urinary tract infection. If it's more like a charging stance--which involves the tail being lifted in my experience--then it's probably not a urinary problem. Cecal bacteria can also get out of whack if the immune system is challenged, by emotional stress or illness.

I'd give him a dose of probiotic and watch his peeing behavior closely. If he's straining to pee, it's time to go to the vet. If he's just getting ready to charge and the probiotic clears up the cecals, I wouldn't worry anymore.
 
elrohwen wrote:
When I went to put him in his carrier, he jumped in one litter box and lifted his tail. A second later he jumped out, ran to the other litter box and lifted his tail. There was no pee in either spot ??? Any ideas on this behavior?
Click to expand...

This to me means Vet time, that's a typical Urinary Tract Infection behaviour, the poopy butt would also be symptom of that. Occasionally it means they're trying to pass gas, but otherwise it's almost always a UTI thing in my experience.


sas :clover:

 
Thanks for the input guys. I saw a tech and explained everything that was going on, but she said I didn't need to see a vet and to just watch his eating and pooping behavior. *sigh* I was worried you would say that about the UTI. If I had noticed those symptoms earlier I probably would've booked him right into the vet, but I saw it literally seconds before we left.

It definitely wasn't a charging stance - Otto's never charged anything in his life and the most dominance related behavior is about 5 humps to our female bun, so it was definitely some kind of pee/poop related behavior.

I'm going to watch him like a hawk the rest of today and make the decision to go back to the vet tomorrow if I see anymore of the tail lifting in the litter box behavior. I'm going to read up on other signs of UTIs to see if there's anything I'm missing.

He's currently back in the bonding pen eating hay like a champ - part of what makes me think it's not a dietary imbalance because he's eaten more hay in the last 24 hours than he's probably ever eaten.
 
I'm happy to report that Otto is much more active now than when he had poo all over his bum. He seemed miserable for a few hours, but now he's running around, eating like crazy, grooming himself, etc. Still waiting for any funny litter box behavior.
 
Glad he's doing better.

Watch him like a hawk, like you said ;) and let us know how he is doing

Jen
 
It's funny that he would only sit in the litter box while his bum was covered in poo. I've never seen him do that and he doesn't done it since we got home. Nice of him to keep the rest of the pen clean! Haha
 
Perhaps he knew he had a poopy butt, and associated the poop with the litter tray, so just automatically went to sit in the litter tray?

Not quite sure. It could be due to stress from the bonding, so hopefully he'll become a little more relaxed.

Jen :)
 
Last night was stressful for them, probably more from me sitting up late with them and watching tv than for any other reason. Haha. Though he did get a little humpy, which he has never done, so I think there was absolutely stress involved that caused him to hump. Hopefully that's all it was.

I think it's so cute that he sat in the litter box because that's where poops go. He's a strange little guy. Throughout bonding he has never left a single poo out of place.
 
elrohwen wrote:
Throughout bonding he has never left a single poo out of place.
Click to expand...
Well that's good! That implies that he's not desperately trying to exert his dominance, and be territorial. Hopefully the humping will just fizzle out, if he's not that dominant a bunny too :)
 
Previously he had been the humpee, so not sure what got into him last night (my girl seemed quite surprised at the change too!). In general he's the furthest thing from a dominant bunny I've ever seen. Haha.
 
It's really strange. My Benji has always been the dominant bunny- he's the one who would nip, chase etc. Pippin was always quiet and ran away etc.
However, Benji is always the humpee, and Pippin is the humper. It's so odd. Pippin will DEMAND grooms from Benji, give Benji a few mere licks and then demand some more, and then will hump Benji's face.
Then he acts surprised when Benji chases him trying to bite him....... lol.
I'm just hoping he will stop soon. Benji has stopped ALL his aggressive behaviour. No more nipping- nothing. Now all I've got to stop is the humping but I am not sure how to do it lol! I just keep stopping it and preventing it but I think it's going to take a while.

Jen
 
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