Can someone explain pine vs. cedar to me?

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Saudade

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I've been reading around and I find all these things disproving rumours about pine being a bad bedding/litter for rabbits. I use pine shavings in my cage with Lucy.

Can someone who actually knows how and why pine shavings affect a rabbit?
 
The reasons for cedar and pine being bad are that they contain chemicals that are released when it is exposed to urine which have been shown to cause liver problems. However, the evidence for pine being harmful is not very strong. I use Feline Pine litter which is pelleted pine litter and supposedly the processing of this litter removed any possibly harmful chemicals anyway. I choose not to use wood shaving litter of any sort because it DOES NOT absorb well. You are much better off with a pelleted pine, aspen, or paper-based litter.
 
Pelleted litter isn't available anywhere near me.

I believe what you are referring to are chemicals that cause problems with HMEs however after speaking to my brother (a pharmacist) and getting him to explain the processes that occur with these. He believes no harm can come whatsoever, they use pine bedding for lab rats, these creatures can't have any of their HMEs increased or decreased because it will mess with the drug uptake.
 
If you have woodstoves in your region, you can sub in wood stove pellets.

IMO, I wouldn't personally mess with coniferous shavings, due to the tannins and resins that feature more prominently in those woods (impact is evidenced on the coniferous forest floor).
The average store bought cage with the average rabbit owner is likely placed in a poorly ventilated area, and cleaned infrequently...bad combo. In the lab situation, animals have to be cleaned stringently, so as to preserve the testing environment. I can see why pine would be OK in that situation.

If the cage is meticulously cleaned daily, and no accumulation of urine occurs, pine might be a possibility...

Hardwoods like aspen, poplar, etc. are a better route for most rabbit caretakers.


ETA: I shouldn't attempt this kind of deep thinking at 2AM...
 
Saudade wrote:
Pelleted litter isn't available anywhere near me.

I believe what you are referring to are chemicals that cause problems with HMEs however after speaking to my brother (a pharmacist) and getting him to explain the processes that occur with these. He believes no harm can come whatsoever, they use pine bedding for lab rats, these creatures can't have any of their HMEs increased or decreased because it will mess with the drug uptake.

I'm not sure how exactly how all of that plays out, but my exotic's vet who is at least nationally known if not internationally....... does not want us to use pine shavings and cedar shavings. A friend of the family isaprofessor of veterinary science and he alsosays not to use those. Your brother might very well have some information there, but I personally lost several rats to cedar. Each year, for Christmas, I would get the rat a big bag of good smelly cedar and every year my daughter's rats would die. I finally found out about the problems and will not use it.


 
Cedar is very different to pine, cedar is full of highly poisonous substances. Pine on the other hand when heat treated (as all beddings should be) loses its poisons.

The impact on the floor of the forest you are talking about has to do with the acidity of the pine needles rather than poisons.

I still have yet to find any solid evidence as to why pine shavings would be bad for rabbits. I'm hoping to dispel the myths and rumors about pine shavings once and for all.
 
Oh, yeah.... I use pelleted wood for litter (Equine Fresh) and it's a pine base...... Definitely fine with the heat curing.
 
To be honest, I am really undecided about whether or not I think pine would/could be harmful. I have used aspen before when it was donated to me, but that small bag only lasted a few days so I doubt that would have told me anything anyway. Of course no matter what bedding you are using if there is improper cleaning and ventilation your animal will be sick. My main reason for not using shavings of any sort is that they just don't absorb, and with thirty-some rabbits to try and keep clean by myself, I need something absorbent.
 
Undried pine has phenols in it--that's what make it smell like pine. You may notice that kiln dried pine doesn't smell very "piney" because these compounds have been baked out. Phenols can irritate mucous membranes, which is a big deal for bunnies whose sensitive noses are going 24/7. Rabbits also have sensitive eyes.

As indicated in that article (sorry I don't have time to read all of it, but just skimmed it), these compounds induce some enzymes in the liver. This means that they cause these proteins to be over-active and thus break down things more quickly. Therefore, an animal on pine bedding will metabolize a drug more quickly than one that isn't, and this can cause problems both in determining the right dose of a drug to give, and in the way the animal gets some nutrition from food. Not only drugs are metabolized by these enzymes, some compounds in food, such as vitamins, are. This means that a rabbit might not get as many vitamins as they should.

Also, breaking down drugs and other things more quickly can make the byproducts of these compounds be more concentrated in the body at a given time point, which could be problematic. For instance, if vitamin X is degraded to compound C that is more toxic than vitamin X, the concentration of compound C increases. If compound C was previously produced slowly enough that the body could get rid of it (usually in urine), this increase in its concentration might overshoot the body's ability to eliminate it, and levels could build up to be toxic or dangerous.

Finally, induction of liver enzymes puts stress on the liver, and that's the last thing we need with rabbits. They can be prone to fatty liver disease, and the liver is a very important organ in the body that we really need to protect. These same enzymes are induced in humans when they are chronic alcoholics, so keeping rabbits on phenol-producing bedding may cause liver damage akin to chronic alcoholism.

I think the respiratory issues alone are enough to keep small animals off of pine and cedar bedding. The liver issues are a bit controversial, but there is just too much evidence that they could be a problem. I know the lab animals I have seen (from mice to rabbits and on up the evolutionary tree) are not kept on pine bedding. Perhaps that is because I have seen animals involved in pharmaceutical testing, and they don't want the livers of these animals to be at all influenced by their bedding as the metabolism of a drug is primarily what they study in that kind of test.

Kiln-dried pine pellets (like Feline Pine or wood stove pellets) are cheap and becoming more readily available. They're the best solution for bunnies' health and the wallet.
;)
 
On the other hand, there have been articles that admit the changes in chemistry when cedar is used but then go on to say that those changes are irrelevant to rabbit health. It is one of those subjects where everyone have a strong opinion and exaggerates their side, but also one which is under-researched.
 
Certainly, the argument can be very polarizing... Note the site "Pine is Fine", which is conveniently run by American Wood Fibres.

No $ benefit there, not at all:rollseyes

As Lucille said, lack of conclusive research from either side.
Tonyshuman did a marvelous job of joining the dots to common rabbit challenges... but what else can you expect from a biomedical scientific researcher?:D
 
Nancy McClelland wrote:
We've been using Kiln dried pine for 7 years without any problems. Our Vets in CA said it was alright as well as our Vets here in Lost Wages.
Kiln dried pine is supposed to be a better choice than regular pine because the phenols have been baked out.
 
You cannot see the liver issues, especially if liver function tests are not conducted every year. You won't know about slow liver damage until she gets sick and has to metabolize some drug with her liver, or if she has acute liver failure.

It's best to have blood tests done every year after age 4 or 5, and she really shouldn't be on pine bedding.
 
Dave set me up with this thread, I thought it was recent but well, it wasn't.
Anyways, lol,
I switch it up, when it's colder I use the pine, and when it's not so cold I use Kaytee Bedding (Lavender Scent) .. remember my thread? :p
 

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