Buying vs. Adopting

[Katmais_mommy]

So, I work at a big chain pet store. All of my co-workers know that I'm a rabbit enthusiast and I know more about rabbits than any of the employees.

My co-worker (who I dont like) asked me where to buy a bunny. I asked her why and she said that a few customers have asked if we(the store) sells them. We tell them no. So, in reply to my co-worker, I said yes, I do know where to buy them. She then asks where to buy them. She and I have always got along pretty well, but this is where my passion for rabbits kicked in.

I said, "I know exactly where to buy them. I even know of a few breeders in the area. But I'm not going to tell you. There are far too many sitting in shelters. So, next time a customer asks about a bunny, tell them to check the animal shelters."

She gave me the dirtiest look but I stood my ground. The store/company does not sell dogs or cats (or rabbits) because we advocate adoption. I thought it was only fair to advocate the adoption of shelter rabbits too.

Whenever customers have come up to me in the past looking for rabbits, I tell them about the shelters that have a number of them.

I'll be honest and say that I got mine from a breeder, for free, since she was a friend of a friend. But when I got them, I had no idea about the population of shelter rabbits and the horrible stories of domesticated rabbits being set free. I know that in the distant future, I would like to rescue a rabbit from a shelter.

I'll say that I learn something new about rabbits every day, whether it's from this site or from a fellow customer I meet at work. I had NO CLUE what I got myself into when I got Kody and Katmai, but i dont regret any of it. It's hard work and time consuming. They require space, good diet, and lots of love. And when adults come into the store looking for a bunny for their child, I'm speechless.

I know that not all children are "bad with bunnies", because it depends on both the child and the temperament of the rabbit. But I dont know that and I never want to take a chance, knowing that a rabbit's life may be at risk. I know that these parents dont mean any harm because they dont know how much work rabbits require.

It also bothers me when I see that rabbits fall under the "Pocket Pet" category. I know alot of rabbit owners will agree with me when i say that rabbits are a lot like dogs. They require litter training, neuter/spay, and space. They also may require medication. All require nail clippings and check-ups.

So, i was surprised to hear that a small herd of people came into my store, weeks after Easter, looking for bunnies.

Most people also ask for a dwarf/small breed. To me, my Lionhead/Dutch mix rabbits are definitely the stereotypical small breed rabbits:jumpy/hard to handle type of bunnies.

I've also noticed a pattern in the pet-owning area. Most parents buy their toddler a goldfish or betta fish. Then, they buy a hamster for their 6 yr old. Then, they buy a guinea pig for their 8-10 year old. Then they buy a rabbit for their "tween". Then they buy a puppy for their teen or for themselves as an adult. Honestly, I have no problem with this pattern. I think it is a good idea and a good way to ease a child into having a responsibility. As the child grows older, the responsibility grows slightly larger. In my opinion, i think this pattern provide a smooth transition.

I'm not saying that i'm against buying. It's just that I like to promote adoption. Everyone has their own reasons for buying a cute baby or an adult pure-breed. I intended this to go towards the "bunniesare not little pocket pets to be kept in cages their entire lives"direction.

It's sad to admit, but in my state, there is a rabbit network that is devoted solelyto taking in only domestic rabbits that have been set free by their owners. They dont take in rabbits from the public. It makes me sad that there are SO many rabbits there. My state has a lot of woodland. So people think it's okay to set them free. Luckily, this organization is dedicated to this one problem. http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/



SO sorry for the rant. This was just an opinion so please respect it and feel free to disagreeI'll respect your opinion too I'm sorry in advance if I have offended anyone, because it wasnt my intent.I truly love everyone on here and I've always appreciated everyone's advice on my posted topics. :biggrin:

 

[rabbitgeek]

I accept your gracious invitation to respectfully disagree.

Adopting for money is buying a rabbit.

What is the difference whether a buyer pays $75 to a breeder or pet store versus $75 to adopt?

Money is changing hands. That makes it a sale.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios

 

[Katmais_mommy]

rabbitgeek wrote:

Money is changing hands. That makes it a sale.

You make a very good point. Personally, I would prefer to spend the $75 for example, on a rabbit that has been rescued by an animal hoarder rather than spend $75 on a rabbit from a breeder.

This might sound odd, but I would rather like to rehabilitate a "damaged" rabbit. Whether it be a physical or mental damage, I love a good challenge.

 

[rabbitgeek]

Should an average, first time rabbit pet owner take their chances on getting a "damaged" rabbit?

I've heard some stories about adopted rabbits that wind up costing hundreds of dollars in vet bills.

I'm sure that is not what these buyers were expecting when they tried to help out a rescue bunny.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios

 

[TinysMom]

Katmais_mommy wrote:

SO sorry for the rant. This was just an opinion so please respect it and feel free to disagreeI'll respect your opinion too I'm sorry in advance if I have offended anyone, because it wasnt my intent.I truly love everyone on here and I've always appreciated everyone's advice on my posted topics. :biggrin:

First of all - thank you for your post. As a breeder, I may disagree with parts of it- but I do understand where you are coming from.

As a moderator, I want to point out to all reading this that we have a policy to "agree to disagree" and while we welcome discussions....we always want to respect the right of the other members to have different opinions.

I think it is great that you support rescue - my heart bunny that lives in my bedroom is from a rescue...and I love him dearly.

As you've probably noticed - our forum is breeder-friendly and very pro-rescue. Somehow we try to mesh the best of both worlds.

Unfortunately - if you live where I live and want to rescue a rabbit - you have to drive over 200 miles one way to get one. Rabbits are not turned into animal shelters here (I've asked...they won't accept them because I had wanted to volunteer to help!). So ... if you want a rabbit - you buy from an unethical breeder who sells them too young (usually at the flea market that is about a mile from the Mexican border) - or you buy them from hopefully an ethical breeder.

Unlike many breeders in Texas - my herd is kept indoors -in air conditioning. This means that when someone wants to adopt from me - I have several questions we discuss before I will consider selling them a rabbit. I bred flemish giants to be COMPANION rabbits - not meat rabbits and not outdoor pets (it gets up to 100 in the summer).

Anyway - I'm glad you felt you could share...and I hope you know that even though I'm a breeder - I respect and value your comments.

:biggrin2:

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

rabbitgeek wrote:

I've heard some stories about adopted rabbits that wind up costing hundreds of dollars in vet bills.

Any rabbit from any situation can have vet bills. Rabbits from breeders, pet stores, rescues, and any other source can have health problems. Not to mention the routine vet bills like check ups and spay/neuter which can run into the hundreds like any other medical treatment.
I have a lionhead who I got for free from a breeder (she was free becasue she is a pet and I do know the breeder before I got her). While she has not have any health problems, she has still cost about $380 at the vet to get spayed. While the 2 I adopted from the humane society have had health issues which cost a couple hundred each plus the cremation and ceramic paw print (not cheap either).

You really need to know what you are getting for the money you spend no matter where you are going. A rescue will probably be spayed or neutered and healthy checked by a vet, but you to take your chances with the health as the history of the rabbit is not usually known. With a breeder, the rabbit is intact and not usually vet checked, but you do get the know where it comes from and can see where it has lived and been raised. Some breeders do have health guarantees and you go back to the breeder of something does happen. Staying in contact with the breeder can also be good of there is a genetic issue that pops up later so the breeder can make changes to the breeding program to avoid these issues if future rabbits. If you go to a pet store, there is usually no guarantee that is worth much. While they might take them back if they are sick, they will probably just sell it again or do other no so good things. Pet stores have no info on where the rabbits come from (and most don't care anyway), so you have no idea of the history however young the rabbit is.

I think that people really do need to be able to make an informed decision on where they get a rabbit. While a rescue can be good, it is not for everyone. Breeders can also be good, but like anything there are good and bad ones.
One thing I really do hate is when one group attacks the other based on the actions of a few bad individuals. People need to know the good and bad of all options from unbiased sources.

It is really about educating potential rabbit owners about the care and where they can get a rabbit. Educated people tend to make better decisions than those who just decide they want one and go get it that day.

 

[DIpitydane]

I feel about bunnies just the same as I do dogs, cats, birds, etc, etc, etc...You have two GOOD options in my opinion...you can either adopt a rescue which obviously saves a life, or you can buy from a REPUTABLE breeder, thus supporting ongoing efforts to preserve breed standards and health. I believe both are of benefit to bunnies or any other critter for that matter.

Unless you are against the owning of bunnies as pets altogether, there must be good breeders to carry on the genetics and maintain the standard for each breed....all the breeds we know and love of any species will go extinct while we wait until the homeless ones are all adopted. It is for this reason I do not buy into the whole, "Don't buy while they die" mentality. That said, I do not agree with just breeding for the sake of breeding...pet bunnies should be one of the wonderful side effects of a breeding program that produces animals as close to the standard as possible while maintaing health and soundness. Standards are made to keep a Flemish looking like a Flemish...and a ND looking like a ND...without standards to follow a breed could evolve over time into something that doesn't even resemble what it should.....this is what happens to dogs in the case of bad breeders and is why you get purebred Beagles that look like Dachshunds, or Chihuahua's that weigh 10lbs. The standard must be adhered to for a breeder to be considered reputable.

So generally speaking, if it were me(an it is not) I would recommend both and explain why each is a good thing. Prospective owners definitely need to be made aware of shelter animals period...BUT, it's also mutually beneficial to the animals for people to be made aware of what makes a good or a bad breeder. That way, should they decide they DO want a purebred, they have the power of knowlege in their favor. Some people no matter what, want a specific breed because of temperment traits, size, etc....and better that they are given the insight to what a good breeder is, rather than just not bringing it up in an effort to promote shelter pets instead.

Anyway, wow, I typed a lot....bottom line...support shelters and good breeders only with your money...if we all did this, bad breeders wouldn't have cause to exist.

 

[Katmais_mommy]

I agree, no matter where you get your rabbit, it may cost you some vet bills, whether it is a shelter bun or from a reputable breeder. I think it may come down to research and knowledge of owning a rabbit. I got my rabbits from a breeder and Katmai's vet bills to date has reached almost $800.

Franco, where I am from, we have a Rabbit Network run by very knowledgable rabbit people. In my opinion, I would recommend this place to a "First Time owner". This place rehabilitates injured rabbits back to health in order for them to be placed in homes. Since I am not a newbie, I would go to a shelter or my local SPCA for a rabbit.

TinysMom, I'm glad that this site is pro-breeder and pro-adoption. And I'm also glad that the site is pro-outdoor and pro-indoor. I hope I didn't offend you, as I have always appreciated your advice and comments in the past. I also appreciate your insight on the topic.

PS: Money is never a matter to me when it comes to any kind of animal. Franco made a point that both options are technically sales. I know this will sound weird, but personally, I would choose a scarred or earless rabbit over a cute baby rabbit.

Also, my sister almost adopted a Jack Russell Terrier with terminal cancer. She makes a lot of money from her job and wanted to give it a comfortable passing. Unfortunately, her landlord wouldnt allow a dog. I was just proud that she even opted to adopt this dog instead of a puppy from a pet store.

I hope that was a good analogy. Me and my sister are weird when it comes to animals. I would be the type to adopt a 3-legged dog.

In my opinion, I would recommend the House Rabbit Network to a first timer, as there aren't any breeders in the area. And maybe an experienced owner to a shelter.

 

[slavetoabunny]

rabbitgeek wrote:

I accept your gracious invitation to respectfully disagree.

Adopting for money is buying a rabbit.

What is the difference whether a buyer pays $75 to a breeder or pet store versus $75 to adopt?

Money is changing hands. That makes it a sale.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios

The major difference is that when you pay a rescue, all you are basically paying for is a hugely discounted spay or neuter. My rescue charges $55 for an adoption fee and it costs us $65 for the surgery. If the person paid the same amount of money to a pet store or breeder, they would then also incur hundreds of dollars to have the rabbit neutered.

 

[JadeIcing]

Ditto to Patti.

 

[Marrie]

My rabbit cost $10 to adopt and came with a carrier which cost way more than $10, they didn't make up the money they gave him in food or anything. They just put in a small fee to avoid the people who want "free" rabbits. There is no profit in a shelter, like with a pet store. I always recommend a SMALL rehoming fee to people who are rehoming their pets, it just helps weed out some of the less savory characters that browse for "free pets".

That being said - I have bought animals from breeders as well. A GOOD breeder (one that thinks of the animals as more than just $$$) is fine - I do tend to recommend people don't buy from pet stores though as often the animals come from mills (though there are exceptions to that rule).

My parrot came from a breeder, I drove all the way to another state to find a respectable one that I trusted, 8 hours total drive non-stop to pick him up. I was a bit wary of a rescue, as I wasn't sure I could handle a biter or a plucker, but ultimately the reason I didn't rescue is that the rescue for birds is 3-4 hours away (one way) and they required us to drive up there at least 4 different days and it just wasn't possible.

As for vet bills being possible no matter where you get the animal, completely agree. My cousin got a dog from a pet store - it got sick a week later, $500 in vet bills later, it died. I know someone who got a bird from a well respected breeder - it got sick after a month or so and cost thousands in vet bills to get it healthy. No fault of the breeder, who offered to take the bird back, it is just impossible to guarantee no animal you sell will get sick.

My adopted bunny came litter trained (though the shelter didn't do it), knows the word "no" and doesn't chew much. He's been friendly and sweet and well behaved. Animal I adopted before this bun was a dog and she came so well trained she caught a chicken in her mouth that the other dogs were trying to kill, brought it to me unharmed (though a bit shaken) and gave it up when asked.

There is a rabbit rescue near me that adopts out their buns from foster homes - they spay/neuter them, litter train them, train them to behave as house bunnies all before they allow them to be adopted out. If a family wanted a well behaved bunny, I would send them there.

I see no problem with advocating adoption if that is your stores policy on other animals anyway - why should rabbits get lesser treatment than a dog by the store employees?

 

[Yurusumaji]

I want to point out that getting a pet from a breeder or store may also be preventing that one from being yet another rabbit that winds up in the shelter. There are so many variables that can be considered to defend your choice in where you purchase your rabbit.

However, I also want to say that it's important to remind people that adoption is an option. So many people don't even know that shelters have rabbits waiting for homes or even that there are rabbit-specific rescues out there. It's really great that you inform them of this option. They may still decide to get their rabbit from a breeder or pet store, but I'm sure others will at least look into their local rescues and possibly find a rabbit they truly love.

Like the OP said, they didn't even know about rescues when they got their rabbit. Maybe you would have enjoyed knowing that. There is a thin line between informing someone of a new option and trying to badger them into it, though. So always be careful with the way you present yourself to these people. You catch more flies with honey.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

Either way is a viable option--shelter or breeder, depending on your reasons and desires. And as Tiny's Mom says we have the "agree to disagree" as long as it doesn't become personal or attack oriented. My favorite quot on this is from the French philosopher Voltaire--"I may not agree with what you are saying, but, I will defend to the death your right to say it". I personally favor a bunny from a shelter unless you're gonna breed and are shooting for specific characteristics. Shelter bunnies come with a cost factor usually much less than just the cost of neutering and are usually socialized and have been checked over for any problems. However, we do live in an imperfect world so nothing in life is guaranteed. We know personally that shelters lose money--we have rescued a bunch and let a few get adopted from us and our cost for each rescue just on vet bill is over $200. Add in food and essentials, a hutch, and incidentals and I am sure it goes well over $300. But we get the satisfaction of knowing we helped an animal in need--that's what counts the most right here.

 

[DIpitydane]

I'd like to throw in also that we should not forget the differences in "breeder" and "petstore"....and not all breeders are equal either. The only bunny I'd ever "buy" from a petstore was one there for adoption thru a reputable rescue. A good breeder does not in general sell buns thru a petstore. A good breeder also does not breed to turn a profit and knows that when every effort is put forth to ensure a good specimen in health and conformation, money is generally lost rather than gained.

 

[Djakarta]

If a person has never had a rabbit as a pet before, I will usually recommend they contact the local House Rabbit Society.

The adoption application allows a potential adopter describe, in great detail, the type of rabbit they are looking for. Not only can they specify the age and breed, they can describe the personality they want and the manner in which they hope to interact with their rabbit.

Most HRS chapters have a roster of foster bunnies, but they may also have contacts with the local shelters and can pull rabbits from them as well.

If your area doesn't have a HRS chapter, you can work with the shelters, directly. A great option for a first time rabbit family is to offer to foster a rabbit. There is usually a short term commitment ( 6 months is usual).

The shelter will provide any vet care necessary during the time frame. Many will supply cages and initial supplies.

Fostering can be a great way to see how a rabbit will integrate into your household.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Katmais_mommy- I think you bring up a very good point. And that is that the most important thing when choosing a pet is ensuring that you find the one that is just right for you! Finding the color, personality, breed, and characteristics that you desire in an animal will make your bond so much stronger and pet owning will be so much more rewarding.

I totally understand where you're coming from on the adoption end, it is sad that there are so many pets that end up in shelters. However, one way to stop that from happening is to make sure we do our best to educate and help new pet buyers.

If the buyer is not interested in adopting or just isn't able to find what they're interested in at the shelter, purchasing from a reputable breeder may be the best option for them and their pets.

First of all, have a little faith in us (reputable breeders). I go through a selection process similar to shelters: talking to the buyer, figuring out what they want, matching a rabbit to their situation. We don't just sell rabbits to anyone, we're not (irresponsible) pet stores or dealers! We take care in placing our rabbits in the best homes possible so referring someone to us is a-okay as well!

Likewise, I highly recommend making connections with the reputable breeders in your area. Talk to them, learn about their sale policies, and find a few who you would be willing to refer buyers to. By developing a relationship with the breeders, you may be able to help place buyers and rabbits to make the best match.

I think together we can all be advocates for more responsible pet ownership!

 

[Katmais_mommy]

Julie, thank you for making me feel more comfortable about reputable breeders and breeders in general.



All of you have very interesting points and opinions and I'm glad this turned out to be a positive and insightful discussion. When the next customer comes into my store, I will make sure to steer them in the right direction instead of shutting them out completely. Thanks again

 

[TinysMom]

This is the letter I send out to potential parents for my babies....just to show you what I do as a breeder.

The red information needs to be changed as it is about the prior litters I was selling.

[line]If you would prefer to talk over the phone - please feel free to call me. I am sorry if my questions seem a bit nosy but I really put a lot of time and effort into my rabbits and it is important to me that they go to a good home where they won't be abused (even by accident).


Hello! I wanted to take a moment and reply quickly to you about your interest in our flemish giants. I have a few questions that I ask before selling any rabbits (I ask everyone - not just you). My rabbits are raised in my home and are like "kids" to me (in fact - we sometimes call them "kids" when they're out playing). Therefore, it is important to me that I find the right home for the rabbits and match the right rabbit to the right home (they really do have such different personalities).

Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer these questions....

Are you looking for a male or female?


Will the rabbit be living inside or outside?


What type of cage arrangements do you have (or are you willing to make) for the rabbit? (Please note that they can not live on wire flooring - I use extra large dog crates for them and then let them have playtime in the house. A hutch outside would work IF the floor was not wire).


How many children and what ages are in the home?


Who will be providing the main care for the rabbit?


Do you have a source locally for buying pellets and hay?


What other animals will be around the rabbit?


Have you ever had a rabbit before?


Have you done any research about having rabbits? If so...where/what?


Why are you interested in a flemish giant?


Now for some information about me and my flemish giants....

I am a fairly new breeder to flemish giants - but I've had them as pets for over 4 years. My flemish giants are raised in my home and when they are young - I frequently spend an hour or more per day with the litter to socialize them and let them play. They have grown up around our two dogs and two cats and will frequently jump over them or climb over them to get around them. They are fairly comfortable with humans - BUT - they are temperamental also. Some of them like to cuddle - most of them prefer to come to you for some pets when you're sitting on the floor. A couple are "kissers".

The rabbits that I will be selling as pets are being sold that way for one or more of several reasons - it could be that their ears are lopping a bit and they haven't yet gotten ear control (or may not have good ear control). It could be that they are going to be small for flemish giants (the most common reason). It could be that their coat color isn't what I want for the rabbits for show and breeding. None of these issues are "health" issues but are instead ones that affect the rabbit's ability to be shown and make weight - or pass on characteristics to offspring.

The light gray rabbits were born on December 24th, 2009 - and they are over 3 months old. This means they will not be itty bitty babies when you get them - I need to observe them until 3 or 4 months of age to determine who is showable.

The steel litter was born 3/11 and will not be ready to go for sure until June 15th - but some of them MAY be available by mid/late May depending upon how the weaning process goes. I will not sell rabbits before 8 weeks of age.

Anyway - if you would prefer to call me and discuss these questions rather than type them out - you can call me weekdays after 2 pm at

I hope you understand the reason for these questions....I pretty much raise these animals like my own pets and I want to make sure they go to a home that fits their personality so they will be happy and you will be happy.

 

[Pipp]

Yes, the MAJOR difference is that a rescue bunny will be speyed/neutered, and this will stem the flow of unwanted rabbits. The rescue rabbits also have a better chance of being healthy and socialized.

Keep in mind there is a difference between shelters and rescues. The shelter/animal control bunnies are probably more in need (they are routinely euthanized) but they're unlikely to have had a lot of vet care or socialization, and they're not as likely to be speyed/neutered, which is something pretty essential to their future health and behaviour. Reputable rescue groups will provide all this.

If you want to save a life, go to a shelter. If you want to get a good assessment of a rabbit's health and personality (and maybe free up room for a rescue to take in a in-danger shelter bunny) and be able to give the rabbit back if it doesn't work out (with no refund of course), and get a rabbit already speyed/neutered or with a vet coupon to get it done for a discount, look for a rescue.

Petfinder.com is a great source.

If you want to take a chance on a cast-off but likely help a rabbit in danger of being set loose, look on Craigslist.

If you're someone who knows enough about rabbits to want certain characteristics found in certain breeds, or you want a 'show bunny', then look for reputable breeders who know their rabbits, breed out defects, don't sell them before they're eight weeks old and will take them back if the new owner can't keep them.

The worst option is a pet store. The rabbits are most often from rabbit mills, they're sold way too young, they're unhealthy, mis-sexed and never sterilized, the staff knows nothing about how to care for them, nor can they educate the buyer. And if something goes wrong, you're on your own.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[Watermelons]

I do support shelters, and rescues, but NOT the SPCA here, their nothing but a giant money pit.

I will admit I went to a backyard breeder for my bunnies. I tried to support a local rescue but none of them bothered to e-mail me back or answer my phone calls. And forget it about the SPCA, their only in it for the money, when the price of a rescued dog hits 500$... something is wrong. Plus I would much rather get a rabbit that hasn't been fixed yet, only because I want to know it was done by a GOOD vet, and NOT on the cheap because its a rescue. I know how rescue spays/neuters are done compared to other pets, and especially animals getting fixed at the SPCA clinic. Far to many problems arise.
I'm still miffed none of the rescues bothered to contact me back, but regardless I love my little bunnies and I think I'm happier getting them from a little breeder.
There are SOME, and i mean a seldom few, that know what their talking about at a petstore. I used to be one of them selling bunnies in a petstore, we made sure all the animals went home with proper housing and care items, the rabbits came from small breeders not mills. My first bunny was from the store. And honestly, I've found plenty of rescue staff that know nothing about what their talking about, it pains me to listen to them go on sometimes.

So I'm on the fence I guess. Both Rescues and Pet stores have a lot more work to do.