BunTastic!

[Torchster]

I had started a reply to this...but it got a little long so I will only talk to a couple of points.

Thank you for the response. There is no need to apologize for a long post. Sometimes it takes time to make a reasoned response, such as yours.

“Responsible breeders spend a lot of time and effort on keeping their rabbits healthy, which includes keeping the environment in which they live in sanitary, the purchase of quality food and hay.” Is this the only duty owed by a “responsible breeder” (to use your term) to the bunnies they breed? I am sure that most any breeder out there spends more money on their buns, than I do on mine. I only have 3, so just by sheer numbers they have to spend more money. But really, is that all there is to being a responsible rabbit breeder? There is nothing more? Sanitary enviroment, and quality food and hay? That is the bar?

Also - We could argue Hobbs or Locke, but taking my ‘community’ point to an illogical conclusion obfuscates my point. The people who obtain membership in RO and post in RO are members of that community (as opposed to being born into that community). They reflect on that community, as does it on them. Continued membership in RO by definition gives tacit approval to bunnies living in less than ideal situations (to be kind), and RO members must be OK with that. I for one, am not. Perhaps its politically correct to allow everyone possible to be a member and enjoy the fruits of that membership…but what is it that RO really stands for? Membership? Is it more important to be inclusive or take a stand?

It seems to me, that the RO community is more about getting more members and trying to include as many people as possible. The fact that a meat breeder wasn’t told to leave tells me that it would be OK to open up a rabbit recipe section. While perhaps some or many or most or nearly all of the community of RO would find it objectionable, would it be taken down and the poster be told not to post it? Currently as I see it, the answer would be no.



Perhaps I thought that there was something more to RO. What I thought it was when I joined, and what I see it as now, are two different things.

 

[TinysMom]

Torchster wrote:

It seems to me, that the RO community is more about getting more members and trying to include as many people as possible. The fact that a meat breeder wasn’t told to leave tells me that it would be OK to open up a rabbit recipe section. While perhaps some or many or most or nearly all of the community of RO would find it objectionable, would it be taken down and the poster be told not to post it? Currently as I see it, the answer would be no.



Perhaps I thought that there was something more to RO. What I thought it was when I joined, and what I see it as now, are two different things.

Hi! I had a couple of breeders (not moderators) contact me and ask me to read the last couple of posts here and post a reply.

I'm sorry you were upset about seeing an introduction from a meat breeder. However, I think you have the wrong impression about our forum policies and I thought I'd share a few things with you.

First of all - this forum is not nearly as much about "getting members" as it is about "helping the bunnies". People who have been around here for a while will tell you that one of our main focuses is on HELPING ALL RABBITS...whether they be breeder rabbits or pet rabbits or rabbits in a rescue. This is one reason why we have a rescue section - along with why we have the infirmary and a fairly informative library of articles on rabbit health and behavior.

We're not about the "people" that join - we're about helping the rabbits they live with.

In our forum decorum area (which is frequently mentioned in the rabbitry and other areas) - we have certain rules. Here is a list of some of them:

Unacceptable Behavior (Subject toWarnings):

- name calling

- ridiculing of another's opinion

- failure to 'agree to disagree'

- the posting of obviously inflammatorytopics (eg: rabbit meat, breeder vs.animal rights attacks)

- overly abrasive or negative posts on any topic

- personal vendettas

- 'advertising' or linking other forums or commercialventuresin posts (see Content Rulesfor advertising policies).

Forum Decorum

​

Now keeping in mind that we're not about the "people" - but the rabbits - that means that if someone joins who IS a meat breeder - we're not going to shoo them away. What if they can learn something about taking better care of their rabbits?

They are sent a private message behind the scenes from a moderator informing them of our policies about not DISCUSSING meat breeding - given an address for another forum they might feel more comfortable in for those discussions - and yet - still welcomed to take part in the general discussions.

You would NEVER find a thread welcomed here about sharing rabbit recipes or any other thing....but that doesn't mean we're going to ban someone or tell them to leave.

I would like to point out that we all - as both pet owners - and breeders - have different standards for our rabbits. Let me give you an example...

I currently have six flemish giant does living in my living room/rabbitry/hallway/kitchen/bathroom area. They are free-roaming.

In addition - I have Zeus a flemish giant mix who free-roams our bedroom and master bathroom.

Would it be wrong of me to say, "oh...if your rabbits aren't free-roaming (because they need LOTS of exercise and interaction)...then you shouldn't be part of this forum because you don't care enough about your rabbits.."?

At what point do we draw the line? Only owners who let their animals free-roam? Only owners that have NIC cages? Only owners that have less than X rabbits? Only owners who feed hay? Only owners who feed vegetables?

No matter where we draw the line - someone who could probably benefit from the knowledge shared here on RO - would probably be left out.

I'm sorry you were bothered by the introduction from a meat breeder. To be honest with you - I'm glad that they introduced themselves that way because it gave the moderators a "heads up" so we could contact them about our policies for discussion, etc.

And I'm sorry that the idea of breeders and how they cage their rabbits bothers you. That is one reason some folks have pushed before for a "private" sub-forum for the breeders only - but too many of our members enjoy reading about the litters and genetics, etc. This is why we have it as a separate forum so people can choose whether or not to take part.

Good luck in whatever you decide about this forum. I understand where you are coming from - I hope you know that. I would NEVER eat rabbit (at least not knowingly)...

But we're here to help the rabbits - and sometimes that means biting our tongue even if we don't agree with the person.

Peg

 

[JadeIcing]

Torchster wrote:

It seems to me, that the RO community is more about getting more members and trying to include as many people as possible. The fact that a meat breeder wasn’t told to leave tells me that it would be OK to open up a rabbit recipe section. While perhaps some or many or most or nearly all of the community of RO would find it objectionable, would it be taken down and the poster be told not to post it? Currently as I see it, the answer would be no.

I could say so much more but no time. I do want to reply to this part. We do say something when people bring up meat rabbits. Things are edited all the time that members don't see. Why? We know not everyone is ok with seeing it. It is in our rules which yes we do make sure people follow. We also send them to places we know will cater to those sorts of discussion. No we don't ask people to leave because we strive to make ALL bunnies have the best life possible. Everyone brings something to the table even if it is what not to do. Closed doors bring nothing good. It stops things from progressing, and with out progress the ones who suffer most are the rabbits.

From our rules....

Unacceptable Behavior (Subject toWarnings):

- name calling

- ridiculing of another's opinion

- failure to 'agree to disagree'

- the posting of obviously inflammatorytopics (eg: rabbit meat, breeder vs.animal rights attacks)

- overly abrasive or negative posts on any topic

- personal vendettas

- 'advertising' or linking other forums or commercialventuresin posts (see Content Rulesfor advertising policies).

 

[CalifornianKit]

Also make sure theyre "meat breeders" and not "meat pen" breeders. I breed meat californians and in NO WAY do my bunnies get eaten. Meat pen breeding is basically breeding 4 meat breed rabbits for uniformity. =) No eating what so ever

 

[Torchster]

I’m certainly not too big to admit when I am wrong. I didn’t see or remember the section about unacceptable behavior (I did look for it, but only briefly). It appears that moderator would delete a section about rabbit recipes. Also, for the record, it appears that something is done about meat breeders, but that is more behind the scenes so it would be difficult for me to know anything about that.



Also, for the record, in case I didn’t state it clearly before, I have learned some things about rabbits from this forum - be it directly from members, or from links to other websites. And that information could have come from a breeder or not, I do not know. In reality, I don’t really care-I am just glad to find information about rabbits, which can be hard to come by. And where it comes from isn’t that important, I just wanted to give credit where credit may be due, which could have been a breeder.



However, another point still has not been addressed. The living conditions of some of these rabbits. What I find even more alarming is where these posts are coming from. I assume that most of the breeders on RO (if not all) are NOT the type of breeders who operate as a “puppy mill.” I assume that the ‘puppy mill’ breeders really don’t care about their buns that much and don’t bother with RO. I assume that the breeders on RO are the more responsible breeders.



Having said that I still find at least some of the conditions that the breeders on RO (whom by definition I consider to be the more reasonable breeders - see discussion above) to be objectionable.



I did some further research and found the ARBA. ARBA was the breeder association that I could find in the US (although there could very well be others, my search did not turn them up). I did this to see what the breeder associations say is acceptable living conditions. I could not find that information, most of the information that I found there led to places to pay and get a book, which I am not intending to do. And, as a side bar, I was VERY surprised to see a cook book advertised at the ARBA website, along with a fair amount of information about “commercial” applications of rabbits, to put it nicely.



I hope that there is an alternative to the ARBA, but that appears to be the dominate one in the US. But also, not my point at the moment.



Back to the subject at hand, living conditions. I’ve seen posts in sections of RO by well intention new rabbit owners and about the set up that they had already done for the new rabbit that they just got. Sometimes these new owners got out and get a cage (among other things) for their rabbit. I’ve seen numerous times where RO members have stated the setup that the new rabbit owner was too small.



I am having difficultly articulating my point - and I am really trying to be reasonable. I am only going by pictures, when people post stuff about the new cage they got. And I am mentally comparing those pictures to what people post in the breeders section. So I am going by pictures…not actual measurements done by people…not by some square footage requirement (that is why I went to the ARBA website for, some kind of standard)…I am only going by what I see. And I see people, whom I assume that are at least as knowledgeable as I, if not more so, telling people that they need a bigger cage-yet seeing breeders using something that looks like the same thing to me.



*Please note for the record, I am not against caging bunnies. If you look around my blog, you will note that I cage mine. I do it for safety, in my case. That, and Petunia would destroy all the carpeting in my home in about 10 days, if it was up to her.



So to me, there seems to be a double standard at work here. One would think that any rabbit needs the same things as the next rabbit (assuming size and things like that are equal). Do breeders get a pass on this because they breed rabbits, or because they have more of them?



There are other things to consider. What kind of exercise do rabbits get? I see post all the time about rabbits who are caged needing a couple of hours of out time to get some exercise. When you see a breeder posting pics of cages stacked 4 or 5 tall with 3 or four stacks, what if any exercise time can be given to those rabbits. Do breeders get another pass?



The last point that I will bring up is that I see a great many posts about how social rabbits are. What kind of socialization can a rabbit get in the above mentioned situation? Again do breeders get a pass on this issue also?


Why do recommendations on one part of the website not apply to the other? Why can people post on part of the website that something is objectionable and should be different not apply to another part? If it is helping rabbits on one part of the website, why isn’t helping rabbits on another part of the website?

 

[CalifornianKit]

A lot of breeder have rabbit runs for the caged rabbits to run around in during the day while supervised. They are basicallybig cages where the rabbits can hop around and binky and nibble on grass and just be content. I know with my cali's during the winter i let them out in the sun for as long as i can but i have to shorten the time and move them to the shade during summer.

 

[Wabbitdad12]

Let me see if I am following your trains of thought.

Some people find it offensive that people raise rabbits for meat, and they are directed to other websites. From your commentsit appears that you find it offensive that people breed rabbits. So, if I follow your thought process, why are breeders allowed to stay and the others are not?

Is this correct?

Regarding your comments about cage space. In all the books I have read, that discuss cage space there is no regulated/sanctioned/agreed upon mininum square footage per breed or size of rabbit. Most agreed upon space requirement is that the rabbit should be able to sit up and completely stretch out.

Responsible breeders handle all their rabbits on a regular basis, checking the condition and health. I cannot speak for all breeders when it comes to the socialization of their herd.

Regarding the American Rabbit Breeders Association. This organization has done a lot over the past 50+ years of its existance promoting rabbits and the care of them.

Another point to consider is that rabbits are in a special class of animals. They can be considered either a pet, livestock, or both. Obviously you might not agree with consuming rabbit meat, but surely you would agree that is good that there is an organization that is concerned with all aspects of rabbit care - whether for pets or livestock.

Finally, In this politically correct society we now live in, it is impossible not to offend someone. What you may not find offensive, may offend someone else. On a forum like this you have to be able to agree to disagree.

 

[TinysMom]

Torchster wrote:

However, another point still has not been addressed. The living conditions of some of these rabbits. What I find even more alarming is where these posts are coming from. I assume that most of the breeders on RO (if not all) are NOT the type of breeders who operate as a “puppy mill.” I assume that the ‘puppy mill’ breeders really don’t care about their buns that much and don’t bother with RO. I assume that the breeders on RO are the more responsible breeders.

I hope we try to be the more responsible type!

Having said that I still find at least some of the conditions that the breeders on RO (whom by definition I consider to be the more reasonable breeders - see discussion above) to be objectionable.



I did some further research and found the ARBA. ARBA was the breeder association that I could find in the US (although there could very well be others, my search did not turn them up). I did this to see what the breeder associations say is acceptable living conditions. I could not find that information, most of the information that I found there led to places to pay and get a book, which I am not intending to do. And, as a side bar, I was VERY surprised to see a cook book advertised at the ARBA website, along with a fair amount of information about “commercial” applications of rabbits, to put it nicely.

I don't know how familiar you are with the history of rabbits here in the U.S. - and I'm going to address that down below. But let me point out that when ARBA started (over 100 years ago I think...I could be wrong) - that meat rabbits were pretty much the only rabbits being bred - and I mean rabbits that were meant for consumption.

So yes...ARBA does have a cookbook and stuff promoting the commercial sales of rabbits.

I hope that there is an alternative to the ARBA, but that appears to be the dominate one in the US. But also, not my point at the moment.



Back to the subject at hand, living conditions. I’ve seen posts in sections of RO by well intention new rabbit owners and about the set up that they had already done for the new rabbit that they just got. Sometimes these new owners got out and get a cage (among other things) for their rabbit. I’ve seen numerous times where RO members have stated the setup that the new rabbit owner was too small.



I am having difficultly articulating my point - and I am really trying to be reasonable. I am only going by pictures, when people post stuff about the new cage they got. And I am mentally comparing those pictures to what people post in the breeders section. So I am going by pictures…not actual measurements done by people…not by some square footage requirement (that is why I went to the ARBA website for, some kind of standard)…I am only going by what I see. And I see people, whom I assume that are at least as knowledgeable as I, if not more so, telling people that they need a bigger cage-yet seeing breeders using something that looks like the same thing to me.

ARBA does have minimum recommended sizes - I know that for the smaller breeds it is 18" X 24" for a cage space...for lionheads, Netherland dwarfs, polish, etc.

I do not know what it is for larger breeds.



*Please note for the record, I am not against caging bunnies. If you look around my blog, you will note that I cage mine. I do it for safety, in my case. That, and Petunia would destroy all the carpeting in my home in about 10 days, if it was up to her.



So to me, there seems to be a double standard at work here. One would think that any rabbit needs the same things as the next rabbit (assuming size and things like that are equal). Do breeders get a pass on this because they breed rabbits, or because they have more of them?

Ah...but does any rabbit NEED the same thing as another rabbit.

Let me share a couple of examples. I once had a doe named Ainsley. I loved her dearly - but she had some "issues". She had to be on the outer cage in a stack - she couldn't be in a middle cage. Cage size didn't matter - it was the position she was in and the closed in feeling she got from being in the middle.

Once we were moving cages - Art accidentally put her in the middle of a row - I told him as soon as he put her down, "Move her...she won't like it..". He didn't - she threw fits. We moved her to an end cage - she settled down.

In 5 years - I've never had that problem with any other rabbit....only Ainsley.

My point? Not all rabbits are the same.

Now another quick story. I have some rabbits that come out for playtime - some on a regular basis - some not so regular. I've had some rabbits (Pow Wow comes to mind) that would sit and quake in the corner of the room and hated to be taken out of her cage. However - while in her cage she would do binkies and do laps around her cage.

I have a flemish giant buck right now that has a cage meant for a 150 pound dog. At times - I've had four flemish giant girls inside a cage that size taking naps during their playtime....so I know he has PLENTY of room.

Know what happens when I bring Hermes out to play?

He spends about 10-15 minutes running and binkying - then he goes and proceeds to be a lump in the corner of the kitchen for the next 4-5 hours....the same size/shape of lump he'd be in his cage if he was napping there.

After about 5 hours - if he feels he's about to be caged - he'll take off running again and binky for another 10 minutes...then settle down again and snooze.

I do better letting him out for 15 minutes twice a day - then several hours once a day!

He's not the only one like that.

There are other things to consider. What kind of exercise do rabbits get? I see post all the time about rabbits who are caged needing a couple of hours of out time to get some exercise. When you see a breeder posting pics of cages stacked 4 or 5 tall with 3 or four stacks, what if any exercise time can be given to those rabbits. Do breeders get another pass?

I have pens for my rabbits to play in - and now that it is cooling down - they can go outside in the dog run area I have set up for them and get playtime outside (its only now started being lower than 100 during the day).

Do ALL of my rabbits get the playtime I'd like them to have? Nope. But I try to be sensitive to their needs and give them some playtime when I see they need it. For instnace - for two days now Athena has been showing me she wants some time out of her cage. Later today she's gonna get the hallway for an hour or two since I can see she wants the exercise.

The last point that I will bring up is that I see a great many posts about how social rabbits are. What kind of socialization can a rabbit get in the above mentioned situation? Again do breeders get a pass on this issue also?

So....how social ARE rabbits? I'd love to see a definitive answer on this. I have some that are social - and others that aren't.

The social ones that get along - get playtime together (assuming they're girls) - and they get time with me. The non-social ones I try to work with...but I don't push too hard because I understand that some of them just may never be social.

Why do recommendations on one part of the website not apply to the other? Why can people post on part of the website that something is objectionable and should be different not apply to another part? If it is helping rabbits on one part of the website, why isn’t helping rabbits on another part of the website?

For one thing - perhaps it is because the breeders aren't ASKING for help or opinions on how they do things?

 

[TinysMom]

Finally - I couldn't seem to post this before...

I don't know how old you are - so if I seem to be speaking down to you in any way - I apologize - I don't mean to come across that way.

But I'm 50 years old...I had my first rabbits when I was about 10 years old. To this day - I don't remember if we even had pellets for them back then - I've asked my mom and she thinks that after we had them a year or so - we might have had pellets but she doesn't remember buying pellets at first. They had had and leftover vegetables (raw) and stuff like that.

Rabbits have come a long way as far as being "pets" in those 40 years. It used to be that you kept rabbits outside in a hutch...having a rabbit inside was literally "unheard" of. We did keep a rabbit inside one winter (in a spare bathroom) because we got him when it was still cold outside. But after that - he lived outside - along with other rabbits we eventually had.

Rabbits were originally bred for meat consumption - that is just a fact of life that we can't overlook. It is part of their history and whether we like it or not - that is how much of the public sees them.

Its only been in the last 20 or so years that we've seen the "exotic" rabbits come into existence here in the states and that they've become more common.

When I was ten - I had a Florida White rabbit (at least that's what I think it was) - and I'll never forget how excited I was to see a BLACK rabbit at the pet store. You never ever saw black rabbits...only the whites. I remember begging my mom to spend the extra $5 to get me the black rabbit instead of a white one because it was "rare".

And a lop rabbit? Mini rex? Satin? Never ever heard of them....

When I first started breeding rabbits - I was talking to the owner of the feed store and trying to make sure that he would not sell my rabbits for consumption (there are no pet stores for 150 miles). I remember him stating that he had no problems with people eating rabbit and my anger and frustration at him - then he explained to me that during the depression - it was the ONLY meat his family had - and that because they had the rabbits that they could give grass and hay and stuff - it saved their family's lives when there was little to no food.

I left his place angry at him - but also - over time - I started to realize some things that I needed to learn.

Rabbits weren't always "pets". The only other example I can even come close to thinking about is people who keep "pot-bellied pigs" or whatever they're called - the minis.

Pigs were originally a livestock animal....just as rabbits were. Now - the pigs are becoming pets too...and our culture is adapting to that change.

I'm glad that you're part of the "enlightened" culture (no offense meant) that can look at rabbits and see them as pets with needs and stuff.

But not everyone is that way - and a lot of that reason is because rabbits have really only been "pets" for a few short years.

We have a long way to go.

 

[Torchster]

Wabbitdad12 -



Actually, I’ve never said I find breeding of rabbits offensive. I’ve only ever been concerned about the conditions that rabbits live. Of course there are abuses in either the ‘pet’ setting and in the ‘breeding’ setting. There are far to many stories to even try to count of really terrible abuses in the ‘pet’ setting, that is for sure. Not my point at the moment.



Do I find the breeding of rabbits for meat offensive? Well yes, to put it mildly. Do I find the breeding of pigs offensive, nope, bacon makes anything better-except for maybe beer. Double standard, perhaps. But tasty bacon trumps double standard.



In re the ARBA, I will admit to not know much about this organization. I’ve been to their website a few times and tried to read what I could - much of it was for sale or members and I’m not interested in giving money to that association. Why is that? Because I find the ‘commercialization’ (shall we say) to be offensive. In the exact same way I would find for cats or dogs.



Now, this is what I find baffling (perhaps I’m just stupid, one possibility). Evidently the breeders here on are RO are comfortable with the ARBA stance on “commercialization” (I find this term the less offensive of many that could be used and I am attempting to be respectful) of rabbits, judging by their membership in and support of the ARBA, by attending conventions, shows, being judges or showing rabbits. (Please do not mistake comfortable with happy, excited about, or fully supportive - just comfortable, that is all that I am saying.) I did a quick check of a couple of other places namely American Cat Fanciers Association and American Kennel Club. I believe that these two associations are similar in nature to ARBA - except is one is for dogs and the other for cats. I can find no information about ‘commercialization’ on either of their websites - nor can I imagine that there would be. Yet I find breeders on RO associating themselves with and organization that advocates the raising of rabbits for ‘commercial’ purposes. Nor do I see any move to either change the ARBA stance, leave the ARBA, or starting something else. Perhaps there is something going on behind the scenes, but I do not see anything on RO. If you give money or time to the ARBA, you are supporting the ARBA and the ARBA is supporting using rabbits for ‘commercial’ purposes…plain…simple…fact. I’m not saying that you like the stance, I am not not saying that you would ever eat rabbit, I’m not saying you would ever even go into some place that even serves rabbit…I am saying that you support that stance by your actions.



Would any member of American Cat Fanciers Association or American Kennel Club find it justifiable that their organization were to support ‘commercialization’ of either cats or dogs and justify that by saying the “organization…is concerned with all aspects of…care” to quote wabbitdad12? Is this situation any different? You might say that the history is different between cats and dog vs. rabbits. Yes it is, very very different. But that is history, that is the past, that doesn’t change where we are at right now. Either one supports the commercialization of rabbits one doesn’t or, in the alternative, you just don’t care. And if you don’t care, you by definition just don’t care about rabbits.


That was a tangent and a half…I’m still concerned about the living conditions of rabbits. I’m still wondering why something is unacceptable for people in the ‘pet’ section but it is acceptable in the ‘breeder’ section? Why can I go into the ‘pet’ area and tell someone what they are doing is not acceptable…but I can’t do the same thing in the breeder section? Why don’t the same standards apply? Shouldn’t they apply? Am I totally off on another planet? Do I need to come back to Earth on this?

 

[TinysMom]

There is no alternative to ARBA if you wish to show rabbits - unless you are a youth - then there is 4H.

But for people who show - it is ARBA or nothing.

You state...

Do I find the breeding of rabbits for meat offensive? Well yes, to put it mildly. Do I find the breeding of pigs offensive, nope, bacon makes anything better-except for maybe beer. Double standard, perhaps. But tasty bacon trumps double standard.



I simply want to add one thing to this....Rabbit meat is actually very healthy for everyone but particularly for folks with certain medical conditions (I want to say its "high cholesterol" but I'm not sure). But I think for some folks it is one of the few protein sources they can have as far as meat goes.

As far as the living conditions of rabbits - I guess that all I can say is we have pet members here who have rabbits in conditions as bad - but they may never share about it on the forum - I'm stating that simply by the odds and the general sizes of cages that are available for sale, etc.

We can't govern everyone. Its just not possible.

If you feel you need to leave - I understand. I truly do.

I mainly wanted to come in your blog because some breeders contacted me and asked me to address a few facts - like how we don't encourage meat breeding or discussion of it, etc.

No matter what you decide - good luck with your own rabbits!

 

[Torchster]

Tiny Post one - I’ll try to address some of the things you said here. To begin, I do know some of the history behind rabbits generally and behind specific breeds (where they came and stuff like that). I AM NOT AN EXPERT, nor do I claim to be. Certainly the ARBA has been around for a very long time. Also, the fact that you have been around a great many rabbits than I, should easily make you more learned about rabbits than I.



Thank you for posting the about the size of cage recommendations. I assume that if it has cage size recommendations for the smaller breeds of rabbits, it would have them for all breeds. You, as a member, have access to information that I do not. You also have more knowledge of the ARBA because, well, you work with it, I do not.



I vaguely remember someone, somewhere posting something about the size cages that facilities that do animal testing have to use. I tried to find it yesterday, but no luck. I was trying to come up with something, anything really. But failed. I did try to find something.



In the interest of brevity, I attempted to allude to the fact that I see rabbits as individuals - “assuming size and things like that are equal.” Granted it was only sentence, but I was trying to keep things short, and trying to take up as little time as possible. I agree with you, even if I didn’t state it well enough, that rabbits are individuals. Each rabbit has different needs. This can apply to a great many things, whether or not they need to socialize, how much time they need out, perhaps even diet.



You ask the question “So....how social ARE rabbits?” I could post links to other websites, but I think you at least acknowledge that they are by giving them play time together. I find it hard to imagine a real discussion on this issue so I won’t waste your time by elaborating on it. There are variations among individuals, of course, but speaking to the whole, they are social animals.



Now, I will give you some props. You don’t let your buns out to exercise in 100 degree heat. Good for you! It would be irresponsible to do so. I wish I could let my buns outside at all, but I live in a condo, and they treat the grass with all kinds of chemicals. I’m also not into the whole leash thing for rabbits. Now that its cooling off, you will let them out to play, that is very cool of you. I’m not trying to be patronizing here, I’m trying to say that it is a good thing that I don’t even do. Of course even you admit - “Do ALL of my rabbits get the playtime I'd like them to have? Nope.”



How much time is right? I have no idea. I don’t know that a bun that is x pounds that lives in a cage that is y big should have z amount of time outside of their cage. There is no magic formula for that. And because buns are individuals, I don’t think that there ever will be. I don’t have a magic number. However, by sheer math, the more buns there are, the less supervised time outside their cage they can get. You can change this by adding more places for the buns to play (like by having two different play areas, therefore letting more out at any given time) and by having more people supervise the buns (you can’t possibly watch buns 24 hours a day, you do need to sleep, so with the help of another person there could be more time out). You also bring up letting the ones that get along out time together. Very smart, you let them socialize and play at the same time, two birds with one stone!



Please note that for the record I’m not saying that you have to let every bun out every single day for x amount of time. Perhaps you are sick, or you have to go to a doctor’s appointment, you have relatives in town, a birthday party to go to or perhaps you have a sick bun that needs the attention more. If they miss a day or two where you can’t find time, it happens.



I am saying that they need time out of the cages, that its important, and the more buns that there are, the harder the math becomes - and at some point the buns have to suffer. Where is that line, I wish I knew.



Now here is where things get disturbing. “For one thing - perhaps it is because the breeders aren't ASKING for help or opinions on how they do things?” I have bent over backwards to try and make this a civil discussion. Perhaps, in your opinion, I haven’t done a very good job of it, but I have really tried. I’ve tried to admit when I was wrong, I’ve tried to show when I don’t have the answer, I’ve tried to point out the good things that other people do. I have not called out anyone by name. And this is the answer I get back - “For one thing - perhaps it is because the breeders aren't ASKING for help or opinions on how they do things?” Perhaps breeders, or more directly Tiny’sMom, are entitled to this attitude by the fact they breed rabbits and I don’t. Perhaps because I don’t breed rabbits I’m not entitled to questions of those that do.



History is full of examples of change. History of full of examples of people with that EXACT attitude being proven how wrong they are. History is full of examples of people questioning the status quo, amateur outsiders questioning authority…and sometimes being right. Am I to be an historical example for people to look up, nope. Am I the guy who knows it all? Um, that would be a capital NO. I would more probably be the example of the guy who knows little.



It’s getting VERY hard to be civil, but I am trying.



Then again, perhaps you don’t know best. Perhaps there are better ways. Perhaps you should be questioned. Perhaps I am not the one to do it. But let me be absolutely crystal clear on this one point - I AM concerned with all aspects of rabbit care. I am concerned about the rabbits. That doesn’t make me the all knowing rabbit person of authority - but it does give the right to ask reasonable respectful questions. If I’m wrong, well then hopefully I will admit it (as I have done). If my stance is untenable, hopefully I will see it and move.



I do know one thing, if someone questions me on how I treat my rabbits, about their living conditions - my answer will not be “For one thing - perhaps it is because the breeders aren't ASKING for help or opinions on how they do things?” I will answer those questions openly and honestly. Perhaps I might even learn something for the person asking the questions.


Now, I ask this question again and again, why is something unacceptable for people in the ‘pet’ section but it is acceptable in the ‘breeder’ section? Why can I go into the ‘pet’ area and tell someone what they are doing is not acceptable…but I can’t do the same thing in the breeder section? Why don’t the same standards apply? Shouldn’t they apply?

 

[Torchster]

Tiny’sMom post number 2. Well, I think that I addressed most of this in my first post. If you want to know about me, well I crossed the 40 year line a while back, so I am no child. Obviously I’m not a PETA member or anything…hmmm bacon. As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t be alive today without animal testing (won’t go into details). I did not grow up around rabbits (only dogs, birds and few fish). I grew up in Montana, so I have spent my fair share of time around farms and farm animals-but did not live on one. I’ve only had rabbits as pets for a couple of years now, maybe a year and half…I should really know my babies gotcha day, but when I first got rabbits, I didn’t know there was such a thing as gotcha days. I have no intention of ever breeding anything. Of course living in a condo as I do, pretty much rules it out anyway, but I still can’t imagine myself breeding anything.



Is the past history of rabbits sometimes sad, well yes. But the past is the past. I can’t change that. Today, right now that is something that can be changed.



Perhaps me asking questions will change something. Not something big and grand. Just change something little and minor. Perhaps my questions are stupid and don’t need to be asked? I don’t know. But I feel compelled to ask them. I don’t know if this comes across, but I have to ask them. Something inside of me is screaming me to ask them. I can speak, bunnies can’t.



So I ask the question. I do not bash. I do not go into the breeders section and harass anyone there. I don’t go into the general section and ask it there. I try and do it respectfully in one tiny barely read place in the forum, my blog. A place people have to come to find it.



It’s a question I have to ask… why something is unacceptable for people in the ‘pet’ section but it is acceptable in the ‘breeder’ section? Why can I go into the ‘pet’ area and tell someone what they are doing is not acceptable…but I can’t do the same thing in the breeder section? Why don’t the same standards apply? Shouldn’t they apply?

 

[Wabbitdad12]

Torchster wrote:

Wabbitdad12 -



Actually, I’ve never said I find breeding of rabbits offensive.If you actually read my comments I said it "appears" didn't say you said you find breeding offensive.


Do I find the breeding of rabbits for meat offensive? Well yes, to put it mildly. Do I find the breeding of pigs offensive, nope, bacon makes anything better-except for maybe beer. Double standard, perhaps. But tasty bacon trumps double standard.



In re the ARBA, I will admit to not know much about this organization. I’ve been to their website a few times and tried to read what I could - much of it was for sale or members and I’m not interested in giving money to that association. Why is that? Because I find the ‘commercialization’ (shall we say) to be offensive. In the exact same way I would find for cats or dogs. If you had read Tinysmoms postthe following paragraph's were answered.


Now, this is what I find baffling (perhaps I’m just stupid, one possibility). Evidently the breeders here on are RO are comfortable with the ARBA stance on “commercialization” (I find this term the less offensive of many that could be used and I am attempting to be respectful) of rabbits, judging by their membership in and support of the ARBA, by attending conventions, shows, being judges or showing rabbits. (Please do not mistake comfortable with happy, excited about, or fully supportive - just comfortable, that is all that I am saying.) I did a quick check of a couple of other places namely American Cat Fanciers Association and American Kennel Club. I believe that these two associations are similar in nature to ARBA - except is one is for dogs and the other for cats. I can find no information about ‘commercialization’ on either of their websites - nor can I imagine that there would be. Yet I find breeders on RO associating themselves with and organization that advocates the raising of rabbits for ‘commercial’ purposes. Nor do I see any move to either change the ARBA stance, leave the ARBA, or starting something else. Perhaps there is something going on behind the scenes, but I do not see anything on RO. If you give money or time to the ARBA, you are supporting the ARBA and the ARBA is supporting using rabbits for ‘commercial’ purposes…plain…simple…fact. I’m not saying that you like the stance, I am not not saying that you would ever eat rabbit, I’m not saying you would ever even go into some place that even serves rabbit…I am saying that you support that stance by your actions. So being a member oforganization like a union means someone supports everything thatunion says, and does and has a history of.

Would any member of American Cat Fanciers Association or American Kennel Club find it justifiable that their organization were to support ‘commercialization’ of either cats or dogs and justify that by saying the “organization…is concerned with all aspects of…care” to quote wabbitdad12? Is this situation any different? You might say that the history is different between cats and dog vs. rabbits. Yes it is, very very different. But that is history, that is the past, that doesn’t change where we are at right now. Either one supports the commercialization of rabbits one doesn’t or, in the alternative, you just don’t care. And if you don’t care, you by definition just don’t care about rabbits. Were dogs and cats ever considered or are considered livestock? No, people do not eat cat or dog meat. So that would be the reason that neither cat or dog associationshave anything about the "commercialization" of thoseanimals. I am sure there might be somewhere in the world where they are. Rabbits are considered livestock,like cows,pigs, sheepandlikeTinysmom said ARBA was started when rabbits were rarely viewedas pets.Many people still eat rabbit in the US and the world

I am a member of ARBA and I do care about my rabbits. My rabbits are beloved family pets, To tell people they do not care about their rabbits simply because they are members of ARBA is a narrow minded view.

A person can be a member of an organization and not necessarily agree with everything that organization does. For example,being a member of a political party or voting for a particular canidateof a party does not meanthat a person supports everything that canidate stands for.

That was a tangent and a half…I’m still concerned about the living conditions of rabbits. I’m still wondering why something is unacceptable for people in the ‘pet’ section but it is acceptable in the ‘breeder’ section? Why can I go into the ‘pet’ area and tell someone what they are doing is not acceptable…but I can’t do the same thing in the breeder section? Because the breeders need a section to discuss breeding of rabbits.They already know some people object to breeding.

I look forward to your next blog update about your rabbits.

By the way I agree withyour comment on bacon, thingsdo taste better with it, as for the beer,it depends on the beer.

 

[Torchster]

I wish I had time to reply today...but I didn't. Hopefully i will be able to continue this later.