*BUNNY DIARRHEA* Infection?

[mariethomas]

I have a terrible anxiety disorder and it leads me to believe that everything in the world is wrong with my rabbits. So I apologize for my constant Health posting.

CASPER: I just went from having my bunnies poops go from green, to smaller and brown. And everything was fine. But today he had clumpier poop! And then it was DEFINITELY diarrhea afterwards. I know how sensitive this is, but I would think I'd mostly have to keep him hydrated. **Any tips?**
He's been eatting his hay, pellets, and ONE piece of parsley. His poop is not that watery, more mushy.

KORN: Before I went to sleep, I cleaned his cage. When I returned from school I noticed he left 1 pellet in almost TWELVE hours. I took him out, gave him new food and water and he returned to pooping.
Then, this morning he pooped what looked like a single Cecotrope with a tiny bit of red mucus type on it. So I definitely thought he had an infection. (past experince) and then later on, 3 HARD poops almost attached with a brown/orange mucus.

I didn't want to stress them again, but my anxiety was killing me and I brought them to the vet (together) and he didn't even take a look at Casper before telling me he had an infection and was worse than Korn. All I showed him was his mushy poop. He also told me Korn had an infection.

They are both behaving normally as of now, playing and eating. But I am avoiding vegetables.

This is the only vet I have found with SOME knowledge of rabbit care. Everytime he has prescribed drugs, I have lost that animal. (they WERE sick to start with)

So I ask for the opinion, would you give this to your bunnies? He said it was to help with the infection and should be given 0.5 on a syringe every 12 hours. I don't know what this is, nor have any knowledge on medication for rabbits.

Please any advice is highly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Mariah]

I am really sorry your buns are sick. I know how hard that can be. I also have super high anxiety when it comes to my buns as well. I cant help with the medication, but Im sure someone will be along shortly to give you some advice.

Are they both still currently, eating, drinking, pooping & peeing?

 

[mariethomas]

Thank you. It is definitely a horrible feeling. One pooped mushy with some form. Not completely diarrhea. He has ate and drank.
I don't see any poop from my other rabbit, but he is eating and drinking. They are both sitting around.

 

[Imbrium]

Cotrimoxazol = a combination of Trimethoprim and Sulfamethoxazole
Both of my go-to lists for antibiotic safety for rabbits specifically list the Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole combination as safe (and there are no specific warnings/side effects listed on either site)
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm
http://www.rabbit.org/health/antibiotics.html

I'm SO glad you rushed them in - true diarrhea and suddenly not eating are both very serious medical emergencies for bunnies! I'm also quite relieved that your vet managed to prescribe a safe antibiotic - I know how hard it can be to find a vet who knows the first thing about rabbits in some countries, making emergency situations even scarier than they'd be for those of us in the UK, US or Australia .

 

[Imbrium]

As for the dosage, I can't read the packaging clearly enough to figure out the exact strength of the suspension and don't know how much your bunnies weigh so I can't tell if the dose is correct. However, proper dosing is 15 - 30 mg/kg.

If you know how much each of your bunnies weighs, multiply their weight in kg by both 15 and 30 to get the lowest and highest acceptable dosages... then figure out the strength of the medication (it should tell you how many mg or grams or something per x amount of liquid) and do the necessary conversions to determine how many mg of medication are in the amount your vet said to give per dose (or if you tell me their weights (close approximation is fine) and the strength of the medication, I can do it ) - as long as the amount in a dose is between the minimum and maximum amounts for their weights, then you're good to go.

 

[JBun]

Jennifer pretty much covered it. It definitely does sound like Korn has something going on. When there is mucous in their poop, it indicates there is inflammation from something. This can be from bacterial mucoid enteritis, or sometimes it can happen after a rabbit has had a blockage. I think an antibiotic was the right call by the vet, and thankfully it's a safe one for rabbits. With Casper, mushy poop can sometimes be caused by something new in the diet, as well as from too many sugars, but with your other rabbit possibly having something that is contagious, then it's also possible that Casper has it as well. So it's probably good they are both on the antibiotic. The sulfa antibiotic will also cover the possibility of coccidiosis.

One thing you need to keep an eye out for when a rabbit is on antibiotics, is that it doesn't affect their appetite and they keep eating and drinking ok. If they don't, you may need to syringe feed them. Also keep a very close eye on their poop. Their poop should start looking more normal. If it gets worse and their condition worsens, they may have also contracted the clostridium bacteria, in which case the antibiotic metronidazole would be needed, as well as sub q or IV fluids to rehydrate them. So, just something to keep an eye on.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Generalities/Enteritis_en.htm

 

[mariethomas]

I am glad this is something suitable for rabbits. I have determined how much they will each get (both under a pound) and they have already taken 2 doses. Casper had one more clump of mushy poop. And then he started pooping normal small pellets again and ate and drank all night. This morning he has barely pooed but is very active. Korn is pooping less, but has very healthy pellets. No more signs of mucus. They both seem fine to me as of right now and I hope they continue to stay this way.

Thank you very much.

 

[mariethomas]

Update: They were both prescribed 0.5 every 12 hours, for 7 days. Both of them are doing completely better, and yesterday was the final day. But today I noticed Korn had a tiny bit of the mucus substance on one of his poops. Is he not completely rid of the infection? Should I continue to give him the medication as prescribed? And for how long? He weighs under a pound, I wouldn't want it to be too much for his small body. Could my other rabbit catch this from being around an area he's be in? Other than that he acts as normal and all his poops are perfect. Does anyone know what I could do for him? I will be calling up my vet when he is open again.

 

[lovelops]

marie I'm like you also and start to freak out over the least little thing. I was thinking Lady was dying because she wasn't eating but remembered she was running around binkying all over the place last night until 7am and then she went to sleep and
has been sleeping on and off most of the day... so don't worry there's more of us like you on the list..

I'm glad to hear your buns are getting better and I wish I could help with your last question but I can't. I know there are other's on the list who know and I'm sure they will pipe up sometime soon!

Take care and I hope everything works out!

Vanessa

 

[Mariah]

marie I'm like you also and start to freak out over the least little thing. I was thinking Lady was dying because she wasn't eating but remembered she was running around binkying all over the place last night until 7am and then she went to sleep and
has been sleeping on and off most of the day... so don't worry there's more of us like you on the list..

I'm exactly like this too... Are all bunny owners paranoid...?

I'm not a vet, but I would say if one of your buns still has mucus in the poo, I would continue giving the medication. However, I am not entirely sure if that's ok or not. I'm sure someone else will comment with a suggestion for you.

I hope all is well! Please keep us posted.

 

[Imbrium]

Hrm... I've always known antibiotics to be a 10-day course (both for humans and for animals)... I've never actually given antibiotics to a bunny though, so I can't be certain it's not different for some reason and the extra 3 days may be a matter of different routine practices in the US vs Ecuador.

There's generally no harm in giving the antibiotics for an extra three days just to be sure you've knocked out their infections as long as there isn't a lapse between doses (ie don't wait a day or two and then resume giving them) even if it isn't necessary [if you continue to give them to one rabbit, you should keep giving them to both if they live together (as a precaution), since anything treated by antibiotics is almost certainly contagious].

On the other hand, antibiotics themselves can cause some side-effects (usually within the GI system) if you haven't been giving probiotics with them (which I'm guessing the vet didn't recommend/prescribe). If he seems almost completely better and the only indication otherwise is the occasional mucus-y poop, it's possible the antibiotics caused it... so if you stop giving them, you could see improvement from that.

It's really kind of a toss-up, since if you keep giving the antibiotics and they're to blame, they could make things worse... and if you stop giving them and *that* makes things worse, you can't go back to giving them without committing to a FULL second round (in which case, it's better to go back to the vet than to go that route on your own).

Ideally, I guess I'd recommend giving the antibiotics for three more days *but* also giving a probiotic (as that would negate any side-effects from the antibiotics); however, that hinges on being able to find a suitable probiotic. I have no idea if small animal probiotics are available in your country... however, a small amount of a human probiotic supplement (pills, not yogurt) that didn't contain anything unsafe for bunnies could be given if small animal probiotics weren't available - that may be easier for you to find. It's really hard to overdose with probiotics; under-dosing is actually the bigger concern by far. [If you find a human probiotic and can provide the ingredients, we can help you determine whether it's bunny-safe and help come up with a guesstimated dosage.]

Either way, you obviously want to keep a very close eye on both of their poops - if you see an increase in the number of mucus-y poops or if they're not completely gone after a few more days, then it's time to go back to the vet. If you can, bring a sample of the mucus-y poop (preferably from less than 24h before the visit) with you.

If the infection IS still present, it wouldn't be a bad idea to nudge the vet towards doing a culture to find out what antibiotics the infection is sensitive to - some vets are quick to culture, others will try 2-3+ rounds of antibiotics before even suggesting it as an option (it can also depend a great deal on *where* the infection is, as some locations like cranial abscesses and respiratory infections can be very difficult to get a sample from). The bottom line is that a culture generally tells you exactly what the bacteria causing the infection is, what antibiotics it's resistant to and which it's susceptible to, so it gets you past the trial-and-error phase and straight to using a targeted antibiotic. Whether or not to do a culture is a matter of weighing the expense of it/the difficulty of getting a sample against the risks of doing multiple rounds of antibiotics that might not even work.

 

[JBun]

I agree. If you continued to give the antibiotic, a few more days on it shouldn't be a problem, until you are able to get back to your vet. As long as his condition doesn't get worse.

I know when a rabbit has had stasis, that they can have a bit of mucous as things get moving again and they start pooping. But I would think that after being on the antibiotic for several days, that you shouldn't be seeing mucous any more. If the problem isn't clearing up, you may need to try a different antibiotic. I don't suppose your vet does fecal tests to see what bacteria is in the poop?

 

[mariethomas]

About 2 days ago was the last time they took the medications. But tomorrow I am going to call my vet to ask whether or not I should continue with the drug. About 2 days ago was also the time I noticed Korn had a tiny amount of mucus in one of his poops. I collect each one and inspect them for any worms or mucus (as gross as it sounds) so I can assure myself he is getting better. But I have not found another poop with any mucus attached. However, his poops are not completely dry, or wet, now they are sticky? And I don't mean stuck together, but rather individually sticky. Enough to stick to a finger for about 2 seconds before falling off. I don't think this has ever happened to me before, so I don't know if it's still related to mucus, or normal. I will take what you have said into consideration, thank you.

 

[mariethomas]

He is in perfect condition other than what is stated above. Yes, my vet does fecal tests. I was thinking if the problem with Korn persists - I would drop off his poop. But as I said, tomorrow I will be contacting the vet.

 

[JBun]

Sticky fecal poop isn't normal. Fecal poop should be dry and crumble when crushed. It does sound like whatever is going on, hasn't completely cleared up. One thing that can happen with a bacteria problem, is an overgrowth of the harmful clostridium bacteria, but this requires the antibiotic metronidazole to treat it. If it is a coccidia problem, you may need to retreat with the sulfa antibiotic. Usually for cocci it is 5 days of treatment, 5 days off, then retreat for 5 more days. I think a fecal test is a good idea at this point.

 

[ladysown]

description of what your buns have, I'm thinking coccidia. Based on the meds ordered, I'm thinking that's what the vet is thinking as well.

if so, it's anywhere from a 3 day to 2 week protocol for treatment. get them better, keep their litter box well cleaned out and they should be just fine. Keep hay as a daily part of their diet until meds are finished.

 

[mariethomas]

Just called my vet up, he didn't say much at all and said to bring in his poop for a test. I hope it can wait a day or two as I don't have any money. My other rabbit is fine from what I know, just some of his droppings have poor shape.

To clear some things up, the first time my vet diagnosed an infection he said it was from something they ate. But I am not sure if this is entirely true, as I monitor everything they eat. I clean their cages everyday, but the hours I am away I suppose would be enough to give out infection. The older one has a bigger cage than the younger one, and doesn't really come into such contact with his own poo. While my other rabbit has a smaller cage and refuses to use his litterbox, I can see why he could have contracted something. I am also saving up to construct a bigger cage so I can prevent this in the future, hopefully.

I also have disinfected their cages twice in the week they were on medication so they would not contract anything again.
I will post results of what the vet says soon. Thank you.

 

[mariethomas]

Update: Finally received results from my vet. The first time I brought in samples, he said the poop looked fine and asked me if I was sure. I said I was and then I gave about 4 droppings from each rabbit in for testing. I didn't understand my vet too well as we spoke over the phone, he said they do have a bacteria, something possibly in the colon? He said it's not too late to do anything, but the medication for this is not available and he will have to look for it, and promises me by tomorrow that he will bring it in for me. I hope he is able to, as I'd like to cure this is as soon as possible.

He also mentioned that they have too much fiber in their diet. But all rabbits eat here are pellets, and I have to dry up my own hay for them. He said to stop feeding that, and to just stick to other things (not exactly sure what he meant). He also said they are eating something bad, could be the dried grass, or of course, what my vet says, the cardboard from their cages.


Out of topic rabbit cage setup:
The set up of my rabbits cage is simple. I use a safe hamster bedding (for all small animals here) over cardboard, so it adsorbs any pee. But the bedding is supposed to accomplish this as well. The bottom of their cages is pure plastic, I couldn't put bedding over plastic because they dig in the bedding and they would only run into their urine? They especially do this at night, they go to the pooping area and chew the cardboard! It is also their favorite thing to chew because they seem to find all the cardboard around the house. Once again, I'll have to save up for somebody to custom make me somewhere where the poop drops, because they are only bound to get bacteria again. (The cage is completely like a metal wiring type thing: I could post pictures if needed)

I will post another update hopefully soon on the medication prescribed.

 

[JBun]

Yeah, when you find out the bacteria that was found, and also the medication that the vet wants to give, that would be great. Just want to make sure it is safe for your bun before it is actually given, and also that the medication is going to be effective.

Too much fiber in a rabbits diet is almost never a problem, unless they have problems keeping weight on. Usually the problem is not enough fiber, and one symptom of this can be excessive cardboard chewing and eating. Rabbits will turn to cardboard for fiber, because they aren't getting enough from other sources. But cardboard is bad because it doesn't break up and just stays in a mass when chewed, which can then in turn cause digestive issues and a possible blockage. Unless something harmful is in the cardboard, I seriously doubt it has anything to do with their current poop problems though. Bacterial problems like these, can just be picked up randomly, from dirty living conditions, from antibiotics killing off good bacteria, from stress upsetting the GI balance, or also from too many sugars and starches in the diet causing a GI slowdown and giving bad bacteria a chance to take hold. So there are lots of things that can allow these harmful bacteria to take hold. I seriously doubt your hay has anything to do with it. Contaminated veggies, maybe. I don't know what kind of pellets you have available there, so can't really comment on whether they are a good thing or not.

If you have any concerns about the medication, sometimes if the symptoms aren't too severe, a rabbits own immune system can sometimes fight it off and get back in balance. You can help this along with an unlimited grass hay only diet for a little while, but this may be difficult for you in your current situation. Have you ever tried looking for good quality horse hay? I don't know if this is something you can find there or not.

I'm not sure about how to fix their cage situation. Do you have any sort of wire mesh at maybe a building supply type store or a livestock supply store maybe? We have lighting grids here, that can also be used to make a grate to cover litter with. So is the pet bedding not absorbing the urine then? You really shouldn't need cardboard as a liner if the bedding is doing it's job.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f69/stormhaven-litter-system-step-step-instructions-48510/

 

[mariethomas]

I am still looking for hay till this day, my vets both say it is not recommended and that it is "too much fiber". I always wash any veggies beforehand, and our pellets always varies. We do not have brand name pellets and every time I buy some, it is never the same as the last.
Thank you for the helpful link. I myself do not have the funds to create something as spectacular as that. I have taken care of the cage problem as I have hired somebody to fix something new up for my rabbits.

Update:
I finally recieved a printed copy of the results. All it says is "escherichia coli hematíes" so I believe this translated is, "Escherichia coli".
The medication that is needed for this which my vet JUST ordered on Friday is in a capital further away from us. And he says the latest he will be able to give it to us is Monday. It will be almost a week without any help and I was very upset with my vet. In the meantime, I had to bring in my rabbits for something that will "greatly help them" until I actually receive the real medicine. So I cannot update on the drug prescribed as I do not have it.

Casper: They say he has it less than Korn. But 2 days ago he pooped and it was all attached by mucous. But until today, I have not seen another one of those. Right now I need to bring him into the vet for his medication until the real at home medication arrives.

Korn: He has not peed in a whole day. I went to two vets today. Brought him back to one and they gave him something to help his stones.
Now he has something different from Casper.
Furosemida 40mg in tablets were prescribed. I have to break it to half, and put it in water up to 1 on the syringe. I have four pills, meaning this will be an 8 day treatment.

I will post another update or edit this when I return with my other bunny. Thanks so much for your help.