Breeding question

[paul2641]

clevername wrote:

TinysMom wrote:

Now I have talked to someone who bred broken Hollands for a number of years and she talked about something that she had noticed and that was - if she took a solid rabbit that was out of a litter that had a broken parent...that there were modifiers (I forget what she called it) that helped to make the broken pattern better when that solid rabbit was bred to a broken rabbit. It wasn't that the rabbit carried the broken gene though - it was that it somehow carried those modifiers? I'm not overly clear on that and am not breeding any more so I did not research it further.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Paul is asking how to get well marked brokens not just rabbits expressing the broken gene.

Modifiers that shape the rabbit's pattern can be inherited without necessarily inheriting the broken gene. So if you have a solid who has ideally marked brokens in their background, that rabbit can be bred to another correctly marked broken to increase the chances of producing well patterned offspring.

I'm currently trying to get the broken gene expressed correctly in my Satin Angora lines so I'm still learning too. If anyone has anything to add to this discussion that would be really helpful!

Well this will be sukis 2nd litter and her first litter the baby that reached a week had a broken pattern on him, could this mean roger actaully carries broken gene?

 

[clevername]

paul2641 wrote:

Well this will be sukis 2nd litter and her first litter the baby that reached a week had a broken pattern on him, could this mean roger actaully carries broken gene?

If he is solid he doesn't carry broken.

What kind of pattern? Ideal? Too much or too little white?

If it had to little (like a blaze on the forehead or a dot of white here or there) Roger isn't an ideal match.

If it had markings over its eyes, ears, and nose with some color over the back, Roger has the modifiers needed to produce correct brokens--assuming he was the sire of Suki's last litter.

 

[paul2641]

clevername wrote:

paul2641 wrote:

Well this will be sukis 2nd litter and her first litter the baby that reached a week had a broken pattern on him, could this mean roger actaully carries broken gene?

If he is solid he doesn't carry broken.

What kind of pattern? Ideal? Too much or too little white?

If it had to little (like a blaze on the forehead or a dot of white here or there) Roger isn't an ideal match.

If it had markings over its eyes, ears, and nose with some color over the back, Roger has the modifiers needed to produce correct brokens--assuming he was the sire of Suki's last litter.

He was poppa, the baby had pretty much the same markings as suki. But they were black, But this was just on the body fur had only just be gone to grow.

 

[clevername]

paul2641 wrote:

He was poppa, the baby had pretty much the same markings as suki. But they were black, But this was just on the body fur had only just be gone to grow.

Roger must carry the correct modifiers to produce nice brokens then

 

[paul2641]

clevername wrote:

paul2641 wrote:

He was poppa, the baby had pretty much the same markings as suki. But they were black, But this was just on the body fur had only just be gone to grow.

Roger must carry the correct modifiers to produce nice brokens then

Roger has black marks on his skin like this baby, but he is fully tort, why is this?

 

[TinysMom]

Torts are frequently called "Black torts" (unless they're blue torts, chocolate torts or lilac torts) - and it is those black markings that make them black torts.

Here are some pictures of brokens - I don't remember what your baby looked like...sorry....but these should help.

Notice how distinct their markings are...

even the not as well marked ones - still have nice markings

Here they are with a black tort from an older litter...she was like, "Can I get outta here now?"

Even as newborns - you could see very distinct markings

 

[TinysMom]

For some reason - I know I haven't looked at your blog - but for some reason - I was thinking Suki was a sable point and not a broken (from the pics I've seen). I will try to check out your blog later or see if you have other pictures of her - I've only seen her face I think...I don't know. I may have her mixed up with someone else.

 

[TinysMom]

Ah - I just checked your blog - I guess I was thinking of another bunny as she is definitely broken.

Looks like you're going to have the same problem I have with brokens (and most lionhead breeders do here too) - and that is - having the teddy gene too so that they're super fluffy...not lionhead looking.

Some breeders have cleaned this up a bit by breeding with single mane lionheads - but it does seem to be an issue here in the states....I've only had two or three that weren't fuzzy like Suki.

Just something I thought I'd share - that you will probably have a hard time getting non-teddies that are broken!

 

[Sabine]

Is "black tort" the same as "sooty fawn"?

 

[paul2641]

TinysMom wrote:

Torts are frequently called "Black torts" (unless they're blue torts, chocolate torts or lilac torts) - and it is those black markings that make them black torts.

Here are some pictures of brokens - I don't remember what your baby looked like...sorry....but these should help.

Notice how distinct their markings are...

even the not as well marked ones - still have nice markings

Here they are with a black tort from an older litter...she was like, "Can I get outta here now?"

Even as newborns - you could see very distinct markings

Roger is defo a teddy lionhead, but as far as I can make out suki doesn't have the teddybear all over her body? Ohh and her baby that had the markings looked just like them but with a thicker line down the back.

 

[pamnock]

TinysMom wrote:

It wasn't that the rabbit carried the broken gene though - it was that it somehow carried those modifiers? I'm not overly clear on that and am not breeding any more so I did not research it further.

Is that what you are referring to up above? If so - I'd love to learn more about that - and I'm wondering if I can get Pam Nock to come in here and explain some of that since she is truly our genetics guru...

Anyway - I just thought I'd ask you for clarification.

As far as I have read, the degree in which the broken pattern expresses itself is only passed on through the various degrees of the broken gene itself and its effect on the migration of melanocytes during neural crest migration. A solid does not inherit the broken gene, so has no effect on future litters of brokens.

It is most likely that just as there is more than 1 rex gene and more than 1 dutch gene, that there is probably more than 1 broken gene. We can see a wide range of expression from minimal white "booteds" to minimal color "charlies".While booteds are common in Mini Rex, they are never seen in some other breeds,meaning that the broken gene and its degree of expression may be due to a number ofdifferent broken genes.



Pam

 

[clevername]

pamnock wrote:

As far as I have read, the degree in which the broken pattern expresses itself is only passed on through the various degrees of the broken gene itself and its effect on the migration of melanocytes during neural crest migration. A solid does not inherit the broken gene, so has no effect on future litters of brokens.

It is most likely that just as there is more than 1 rex gene and more than 1 dutch gene, that there is probably more than 1 broken gene. We can see a wide range of expression from minimal white "booteds" to minimal color "charlies".While booteds are common in Mini Rex, they are never seen in some other breeds,meaning that the broken gene and its degree of expression may be due to a number ofdifferent broken genes.



Pam

I'd be interested in reading where you found this information as I'm trying to develop some brokens in my Satin Angora line.

So far I've used one well marked buck to with 3 different does. 2 of which were of a line with no broken ancestry, and 1 who was. The 2 from the non broken line threw kits with boots and small white blazes. The doe from the broken line threw well marked brokens (like dad).

If the pattern were truly tied to the inheritance of the broken gene(s?) One would expect the results to be similar regardless of the does ancestry since the En gene could only be passed through the sire, right? Or is there some other way to explain this?

Anyway the modifier theory is something Joan Hastings (Holder of the COD for Broken Satin Angora) told me. I havn't read other sources to back it up so I have no idea how true it is....but I figured since it was working for her I'd run with it.

 

[aurora369]

I just have to say that I am really enjoying reading all this information. I barely understand most of it, genetics is not my thing, but a little bit is making its way into my brain.

I think this type of technical discussion is really beneficial to have around. The explanation of how to properly breed for a goal is great to have around for reference.

I know that about 4 years ago, I was considering breeding and even bred Wildfire twice. It was from reading threads like this one that I learned what was involved in being responsible, and decided that I could not provide that level of dedication. I think that these kinds of threads provide the best help to those looking to improve their breeding practices.

Good job everyone!! Keep up the great discussion!

--Dawn

 

[paul2641]

The babies are born with these broken patterns yeah? Suki is due on the 22nd lets see how she does!

 

[Numbat]

I agree with you Aurora! It's interesting to learn about this stuff.

Oh good, I was just about to ask when Suki was due Paul! Good luck!

 

[pamnock]

clevername wrote:

pamnock wrote:I'd be interested in reading where you found this information as I'm trying to develop some brokens in my Satin Angora line.

So far I've used one well marked buck to with 3 different does. 2 of which were of a line with no broken ancestry, and 1 who was. The 2 from the non broken line threw kits with boots and small white blazes. The doe from the broken line threw well marked brokens (like dad).

If the pattern were truly tied to the inheritance of the broken gene(s?) One would expect the results to be similar regardless of the does ancestry since the En gene could only be passed through the sire, right? Or is there some other way to explain this?

Anyway the modifier theory is something Joan Hastings (Holder of the COD for Broken Satin Angora) told me. I havn't read other sources to back it up so I have no idea how true it is....but I figured since it was working for her I'd run with it.

You'll find the most info on the genetics involved in broken patterns in research on mice. Each broken rabbit will carry modifiers that will effect the pattern. Solids have the gene that allows full migration of melanocytes, so they can't have an influence on restriction and placement of migration like the brokens do.

The differences in markings in your broken vs solid lines is only going to be based on the genes that the brokens carry. Selective breeding can help to "set" a pattern, although some variability will still be present.

Pam

 

[clevername]

pamnock wrote:

The differences in markings in your broken vs solid lines is only going to be based on the genes that the brokens carry. Selective breeding can help to "set" a pattern, although some variability will still be present.

Pam

So the fact my buck keeps throwing mismarks when paired with certain solid does is a fluke? Or is there something to actually explain this?

To me, if he spit out perfectly marked kits from one breeding, that proves he's capable of passing on that correct pattern. Plus his track record seems to indicate that mis marks only occur with certain does. At the very least the doe's genetics must has SOME impact on how the broken gene is expressed. Given the history, I feel like I'd be wasting my time if I kept breeding well patterned brokens to them.

Here's the run down:
Broken Buck X Solid Doe (solid line)- 3/9 broken Pattern is limited to a small blaze on the head, chest and feet.

Broken Buck X Solid Doe (solid line)- 7/8 broken Pattern is limited to a small blaze on the head, chest and feet.

Broken Buck X Solid Doe(broken ancestry) -2/7 broken both Patterns resembles Sire's

 

[Flashy]

I find this fascinating. It makes me wonder about Sandy's litter, and Sandy's genetics. All the butterfly kits had similar markings to either dad, each other, or grandad, which I thought was pretty cool. This thread is teacing me a huge amount

 

[clevername]

Here's a mismarked that came out of the first litter (I kept her as a wooler), all the brokens out of this line look like this. See how small the blaze is? Her entire body was colored save for her feet and chest.

 

[pamnock]

clevername wrote:

Here's the run down:
Broken Buck X Solid Doe (solid line)- 3/9 broken Pattern is limited to a small blaze on the head, chest and feet.

Broken Buck X Solid Doe (solid line)- 7/8 broken Pattern is limited to a small blaze on the head, chest and feet.

Broken Buck X Solid Doe(broken ancestry) -2/7 broken both Patterns resembles Sire's

To get atrue statistical representation, you'll need to compare the results of 100 breedings rather than just the results of a few breedings.

Pam