Bonding Kirby & Penny - Moving in

[kirbyultra]

I've been debating whether or not to start a thread about this. *sigh* I'm so stressed out from all the bonding the last couple months (with Toby and Kirby, which I gave up on) that I'm dwelling on every little thing for the new couple. It's driving me insane and I don't want to put all my nerves into my blog. I just have this fear that I'm doing all this work and it's not going to end well.

Ok, so I've done 16 sessions with Kirby and Penny since I got her. They are both fixed buns. Kirby is 3 and Penny is 2. I do two sessions a day in the hallway outside of my apartment. It's totally neutral territory as none of my buns hang out there.

The experts at our rescue recommend doing 2 minute sessions until the buns look like they are ready to go longer. Minimum, they say do 2 minute sessions for a week so that they have time to familiarize with each other. I stuck to 2 minutes for most of the week, but they seem to do just fine. Sometimes they'll ignore each other the whole 2 minutes. Sometimes they go nose to nose.

Kirby usually stands nose to nose with her for about 5 seconds before he pounces on her. I don't let him do that anymore. When they get into this nose lock or their cheeks touch, I pet them both over the head and they sit there for 2-3 minutes without issue.

They compete to be the one who puts their head down first. I used to think that that was a gesture of submission but I think it's actually a demand to be groomed, therefore a sign of wanting to be the dominant bun. They try to stuff their head under each other's heads and so they end up in this cheek lock (it's funny to watch, but nerve racking to actually experience). If I leave the two of them alone, I know Kirby'll pounce on her head. In the last 2 days I've kept the sessions to 3 minutes each time.

I know some people recommend doing 15 minutes but Kirby never lasts that long. He gets really frustrated and antsy and it makes me nervous about what he'll to Penny. Penny still sorta likes him despite the slight violence. I don't want her to start hating him

I can't do car rides to stress them. I live in Manhattan and a "car ride" around the block takes 20 minutes due to traffic (I'm not kidding). Driving at the speed of grandmotherly walking is hardly what I'd call stressful. Plus if a fight breaks out, I can't just stop the vehicle. I don't have a friend's home suitable for borrowing as grounds for bonding.

For now I just keep doing the 2-3 minute sessions... the buns just kinda hang out. My blood pressure skyrockets for 2-3 minutes twice a day.... it's ok... I just hope we are headed somewhere worthwhile with all this. :faint:

 

[Happi Bun]

Bunny bonding is definitely stressful. Dunkin and Amber are bonded but still have their little arguments. Have you tried banana on the face? Also, you don't need a car to do stress bonding. I've heard that putting the bunnies in their carrier and placing that on top of the dryer or washing machine can do wonders.

Hang in there!

 

[kirbyultra]

I've heard about that. I have a double stacker washer/dryer

There is a laundry room in the basement of the building... but i don't know how people would feel about me putting 2 bunnies on top of their running laundry. I probably won't do that LOL I am kinda breaking rules as it is, using the hallway for bonding. My building is kind of anal about stuff. Luckily the hallways don't have any cameras I have to do bonding sessions at 12 noon and 12 midnight because there's least foot traffic at those times. So far in 16 sessions I've only run into 2 people in the halls. Sneaking around the halls and setting up cardboard blockades is also part of the stress

 

[elrohwen]

I feel your pain! It's definitely stressful.

I've never heard of doing 2 minute sessions. Honestly, I would start with longer sessions involving some stressing (even just putting them in a laundry basket, or a cube made out of NIC grids and carrying it around is good enough) and then some time in the bathtub. You need to give them more prolonged positive exposure. In 2 minutes, unless it was a totally positive 2 minutes, it seems like they would be morely likely to take away negative impressions of the other bun.

Is there somewhere other than the hall you can do it? Bathroom? Bathtub?

 

[Bex&Bun]

Its it possible to use your bathroom? I used that coz Willoughby is hardly ever in there. If your other bun goes in there, maybe cleaning it so it gets rid of their smell and then trying it in there?

 

[kirbyultra]

What if they fight behind the toilet bowl?? I always wondered about that. I can't do it in the tub because my tub is really deep and I can't reach in to stop a fight. It is one of those "super deep soak" tubs lol. I can't sit in there with them... There'll be no room for the buns lol

There is unfortunately no true neutral space in my apt because they all take turns free roaming. Except my bedroom. They are not allowed in there because of me and my husbands hay and rabbit allergies. The bedroom is the one place we keep rabbit-free so that we don't choke and die in our sleep. I don't exaggerrate because we used to let Toby play on our bed and he used to loooove it but my husband would cough and choke in his sleep. It became a big problem even with the air filter so we had to make the no bun in bedroom rule

It's usually a very neutral 2 min. Not positive or negative. I don't want to go for much longer than that until later on. The people at my rescue swear by the two minute rule and I don't want to stray too much, then have it backfire and they will be like "toldja so" I have seen it happen to other adopters and when they fail and go back to basics things work out better.

 

[elrohwen]

Your two minute rule is intriguing! I've read a lot about bonding and have talked to many people and haven't heard of this technique (which is especially interesting since I know rabbit people in CT - you would think they would have similar techniques to those in NYC). If it works for so many, I can't really argue!

 

[kirbyultra]

elrohwen wrote:

Your two minute rule is intriguing! I've read a lot about bonding and have talked to many people and haven't heard of this technique (which is especially interesting since I know rabbit people in CT - you would think they would have similar techniques to those in NYC). If it works for so many, I can't really argue!

Yeah, I won't argue with 60 years of combinedrabbit experience among 3 women in our rescue. If they say 2 minutes, I'll trust them. If it doesn't work after the prescribed number of reasonable encounters between the buns, then I can ask them "what else do I do?" lol

 

[elrohwen]

How long do you do the 2 minute encounters? And what is the next step?

 

[kirbyultra]

About 20 encounters of 2 min each. The purpose is to allow the buns to see each other for a great number of times and accept that it is safe and harmless. It primes them for the longer sessions to come. The idea is that the human can control the session for 120 seconds and guarantee the buns won't fight and there won't be any unpleasantries. Once the buns do it again and again they'll believe simply out of routine that the other bun is not going to hurt them.

I buy this because my Kirby is not quick to trust and he's much calmer in these short sessions with Penny than the sessions he had with Toby where it was extremely hard to keep them from fighting even for 2 minutes.

I could try to see if the buns'll share a salad together. I tested them the other day. Kirby wouldn't eat. Penny stuffed her face silly

I just hope it works!

 

[kirbyultra]

Last night, I let Penny roam the rabbit room for a while and she was in front of Kirby's cage... Kirby came over and stuck his little nose through the pen to try to sniff her. She wasn't close enough so I "helped" a little and pushed her butt against the bars. Kirby started to really stick his nose into the fur in her butt! He wasn't grooming her, he was taking some really deep whiffs!

I pet Penny a bit and she flattened out, so I pushed the rest of her against the pen. Kirby sniffed her up and down and he seemed to be having a good time. Penny didn't mind. She's lovely and laid back like that :inlove:

Today, I decided to try the hallway inside my apartment. I'm getting too stressed out worrying about getting in trouble borrowing the building hallway. I didn't want to use my own hallway originally because that's where Kirby and Toby was bonding and I didn't want Kirby to associate the "bad" place with Penny. Plus the buns run up and down that hallway and it's not exactly neutral, but nobunny "owns" it either.

They did ok! Kirby put his head on top of hers. She was squished beneath his head and slowly Kirby's head slid down until his cheek was side by side with her.

I separated them by lifting Penny's head but she kept reaching her neck back over at Kirby. I think she likes him! ink iris:

 

[elrohwen]

Aww, yay for Penny and Kirby! I can't wait to hear how they do in longer sessions, but it sounds like there won't be lots of fighting at least.

 

[crystal]

Sounds like you are having a similar problem to my buns... they both want to be groomed and they put their heads together too.

I found squeezing some of the water from a grape onto their heads made them groom each other. I don't know if it was just because it was after a few more sessions, but the banana thing didnt work for me and it just left them with yucky fur. I found the grape wasn't so bad though cos it's more like water and less sticky. and it got the results I wanted.

I've still got a way to go though... would love to know if you find other things help too. all the best!

 

[kirbyultra]

That is an excellent way to "cheat!" My Penny loves all things edible. I bet I could con her into licking Kirby that way :biggrin2:I should try some fruit juice on him...

Today, I've beenreally bummed out about my rabbits and soI kind of said, to heck with it... I broke all the rules and sat Kirby and Penny together for 23 minutes total. Kirby was nervous at first and he did pounce on her but it was like 45 seconds into the session and I knew he was just antsy.With a lot of petting and coaxing, he relaxed. Later on,Penny flopped over several feet away from him at one point. Kirby groomed himself a little bit. But still whenever they go nose to nose, they get into a cheek lock. Neither bun wanted to groom the other first -- nothing new.

I artificially placed them together side by side (picked up Penny and sat her next to Kirby) and I petted them on the head for as long as they would sit for it. Kirby would occassionally sit up and try to stick his head under her belly, but he did not succeed and so he just sat down and let me pet him again. They sat like this, neither one moving very much for over 15 minutes. Kirby would sometimes lick the floor (he does that a lot when he is lying on his tummy). But no grooming of each other yet. At the 23 minute mark, Kirby got up and walked away. He started to paw and dig at the door so I knew he had his fill.

When bonding, do you interfere? I pretty much HAVE to pet Kirby otherwise he would just freak out and attack her. But with some gentle petting, he is very calm. I feel like I am "cheating" when I pet the buns during bonding because it shouldn't rely on my presence... eventually, anyway. I think they're just not ready yet to truly work it out alone. What are your opinions?

Here are some pics... I couldn't get a pic of them in a cheek lock. The autofocus sounds on my camera always scare them out of the lock.

 

[elrohwen]

Soooo cute!

My personal bonding philosphy, for what it's worth (since I don't have that much experience) is to make the early sessions as positive as possible, even if that means interfering. One of my buns goes a little hump-tastic when they're first put together for a session, but my other bun hates it, so I just keep her from humping for a bit and she settles down. They will need to work things out on their own at some point, but I'm all about forcing them to be pleasant for at least a week or two and hope that when they do start working things out at least they won't be so inclined to fight.

I'm also a huge fan of stressing. My personal fav is putting them in the laundry basket and shaking it around on my knees for a bit. It really throws them off their game and makes them snuggle. I like the combo of stressing, then bonding time.

 

[kirbyultra]

I brought home some cardboard boxes that I will use to bring the buns out for a spin around the building as a stressor. Hope it helps!

Below is an excerpt from my blog. I got so happy today with the results of an impromptu session.

It happened by accident and it went well, sorta. Kirby was out in the rabbit room and I opened Penny's xpen door to give her some love. Penny hopped out so I decided what the heck, I started petting her. They sorta just played on their own for a while. No drama, no aggression of any kind.

It was so sweet, actually. Penny rubbed her face all over Kirby's cheeks and nose. Kirby sat for it. I separated them twice from their "cheek-lock" and they came back together. Kirby didn't even freak out. But he once again, got annoyed with her and boxed her. Luckily, my cautious hand was hovering there and my hand got scratched and Penny didn't feel very much of it. I ended the session there.

But I felt like it was very good because the duration was really long (maybe 7-10 minutes) and on top of that, the session was not in a "neutral" territory. It happened right there in the rabbit room where they both live. Both of their pen doors were shut though, so they didn't actually go into each other's space. I think it helped that I refloored the place yesterday, so it wasn't tainted overwhelmingly by Kirby's scent and Toby's scent should be completely gone by now, save for anything on the xpen that now belongs to Penny.

Yay!

I also spoke to one of the bonding experts at my rescue today. Despite my failure, she helped me a lot with trying to bond Kirby and Toby. For what it's worth, their sessions improved 100 times with her advice and help. I told her about what was happening during Kirby and Penny's sessions and she was very positive. She definitely thought this was going in the right direction. So I do feel good about this.

 

[elrohwen]

That's great progress!

I really think it's so important to have an experienced bonding mentor. I have a friend online who has bonded her own quartet and a friend's quartet, which basically means she has bonded pairs between each possible pair of bunny (I guess that's 12 pairs?) so she's been a huge help to me. It's so important to be able to bounce ideas off of someone who has seen it all.

 

[kirbyultra]

Yeah, a support system for such a difficult and stressful process is important. I freak out a lot and I am so careful because of my experience with the boys. Thank goodness this pair is more promising.

I am at a funny cross roads now... I wonder if they can't peacefully coexist for longer periods of time now. They're not like some pairs who ignore each other all day. They pretty much take 15 seconds to situate themselves and then they can't stop paying attention to each other. Of course I have to watch em like a hawk when they start interacting and get into a cheek lock. I think I consider the cheek lock a bad thing because they still can't decide who's going to be the dominant one. It's like "you go first! No you go first! I'm not going first!"

It drives me crazy cuz as soon as I pick up penny to put her back in her pen, she licks me. I'm like, Chica, why don't you lick Kirby?!

 

[kirbyultra]

Yeah, a support system for such a difficult and stressful process is important. I freak out a lot and I am so careful because of my experience with the boys. Thank goodness this pair is more promising.

I am at a funny cross roads now... I wonder if they can't peacefully coexist for longer periods of time now. They're not like some pairs who ignore each other all day. They pretty much take 15 seconds to situate themselves and then they can't stop paying attention to each other. Of course I have to watch em like a hawk when they start interacting and get into a cheek lock. I think I consider the cheek lock a bad thing because they still can't decide who's going to be the dominant one. It's like "you go first! No you go first! I'm not going first!"

It drives me crazy cuz as soon as I pick up penny to put her back in her pen, she licks me. I'm like, Chica, why don't you lick Kirby?!

 

[elrohwen]

Bonding involves a lot of moments where you think "will they ever get past X behavior?" and a lot of moments where suddenly they're totally over it.

And I'll say that my buns are moving in together tonight, yet neither grooms the other. My girl wants grooms, but relaxes and snuggles fairly quickly when she doesn't get them. It'll happen eventually and as long as it's not causing nipping and fighting it's not a big deal.

Your two do need to work out who is dominant, but I think you will need a few more longer sessions (at least 30 minutes) for them to work that out. It'll happen though! They aren't fighting and trying to attack each other, so there is no reason in the world why they will not bond. Don't stress about it! Just keep going with the procedure and they'll get there. Don't overanalyze as it can just make you nutty (I should know because I tend to do it too )