My bunny has been in the hospital for 2 days now and is being treated for bladder sludge. I hope to have her home tommorrow but I am afraid that her bladder sludge will reoccur. My bunny is a good body weight, I feed her hay, timothy base pellets and vegetables so I don't know how she developed bladder sludge. Does anyone have any experience in taking care of a rabbit who had bladder sludge? Any information is helpful. Thanks!
Bladder Sludge (Resolved)
- Thread starter tazzychan
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tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Hi, I'll move this to the Infirmary for you.
We have had several bunnies with bladder sludge issues. Check out the Library topic on Urinary Tract Problems.
Did the vet say what was casing the sludge? It can sometimes be caused by bladder infections that require antibiotics to treat. Some sludge is dietary, as you've alluded to, and sludge can even be genetic.
Your primary concern should be to keep your bun as hydrated as possible. Adding a tiny bit of fruit juice or vanilla extract to the water or offering pedialyte as well as water can help. Make sure you wash the veggies right before giving them, so that they have a lot of water on them (this is a good way to get more water into the bunny).
Limiting calcium intake can help in some bunnies, but when genetics are a factor in the disease, the rabbit will break down its own bones as a source of calcium--see the threads on Luna and Chase in that link for information. You already are on the right type of pellet. Alfalfa has more calcium than timothy, so eliminate any alfalfa that you feed. You may also want to remove high-calcium veggies from the diet, like members of the broccoli family (broccoli, kale, cabbage, brussel sprouts, etc etc) and parsley.
The #1 concern will probably be adequate hydration, so ask the vet or vet tech to show you how to give sub-cutaneous fluids (if you're comfortable doing that). We have a video somewhere in the library, but it is best to have a vet show you how and give you the supplies. This may be needed on an occasional basis for your girl if she doesn't drink enough. You can also syringe water and pedialyte into her mouth.
We have had several bunnies with bladder sludge issues. Check out the Library topic on Urinary Tract Problems.
Did the vet say what was casing the sludge? It can sometimes be caused by bladder infections that require antibiotics to treat. Some sludge is dietary, as you've alluded to, and sludge can even be genetic.
Your primary concern should be to keep your bun as hydrated as possible. Adding a tiny bit of fruit juice or vanilla extract to the water or offering pedialyte as well as water can help. Make sure you wash the veggies right before giving them, so that they have a lot of water on them (this is a good way to get more water into the bunny).
Limiting calcium intake can help in some bunnies, but when genetics are a factor in the disease, the rabbit will break down its own bones as a source of calcium--see the threads on Luna and Chase in that link for information. You already are on the right type of pellet. Alfalfa has more calcium than timothy, so eliminate any alfalfa that you feed. You may also want to remove high-calcium veggies from the diet, like members of the broccoli family (broccoli, kale, cabbage, brussel sprouts, etc etc) and parsley.
The #1 concern will probably be adequate hydration, so ask the vet or vet tech to show you how to give sub-cutaneous fluids (if you're comfortable doing that). We have a video somewhere in the library, but it is best to have a vet show you how and give you the supplies. This may be needed on an occasional basis for your girl if she doesn't drink enough. You can also syringe water and pedialyte into her mouth.
pla725
Well-Known Member
My Smitten had this issue last May. I cut out the pellets andswitched tofiltered or bottled water. Took care of the problem.
Amy27
Task Force
I have had several sludge and bladder stone issues with my bun Chase so if you have any specific questions let me know and I will try to answer them. What greens are you feeding? Some greens have a higher calcium intake. Is your bun drinking well so the bladder is being flushed good? tonyshumand had good suggestions on increasing water intake. I would offer a water bowl and a bottle to encourage her to drink more water. Another thing you can do to up the water intake is soak your greans in water for an hour or long if you can. They will absorb some of the water so she gets more water when eating them. You said you feed Timonthy pellets but what kind of hay? Some hay his high calcium content.
Like tonyshuman said I would have her checked for an infection and I would also have blood work done to see if that helps determine the underlying cause. Sometimes though they just can't determine the underlying cause which has been the case with Chase. So I just do everything I can to keep the bladder flushed well and low calcium food.
Good luck
Like tonyshuman said I would have her checked for an infection and I would also have blood work done to see if that helps determine the underlying cause. Sometimes though they just can't determine the underlying cause which has been the case with Chase. So I just do everything I can to keep the bladder flushed well and low calcium food.
Good luck
Thank you so much for you advice. I am still really worried about Tazzy because she is still at the vet and it has already been two days. They said that they got about half of the sludge flushed out. I usually only fed her parsley which I have now learned is high in calcium. I am planning on feeding her coriander, romain and bok choy when she comes home. I feed her timothy and orchard grass hay. She was a pretty unactive bunny and that is another life style change we are going to make. She was having bloody urine which what initally caused me to bring her to the vet. They have her on antibiotics and anti-inflmmatories. So most bunnies pull through and beat this condition right?? I am just so worried and I really dont want anything to happen to her. It makes me feel alot better to hear about other bunnies who had this condition and were able to over come it. Is it necessary to syringe feed her water when she gets home???
We have had a few forum members who have had excellent results treating their buns for bladder sludge with subqutaneous fluids at home and also dietary changes.
it is easier to do subqutaneous fluids at home than give fluids orally.
I'll give you a video on this but it still would be necessary for a vet or vet tech to show you how to do this in person
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdf-M9miFzE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdf-M9miFzE[/ame]
it is easier to do subqutaneous fluids at home than give fluids orally.
I'll give you a video on this but it still would be necessary for a vet or vet tech to show you how to do this in person
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdf-M9miFzE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdf-M9miFzE[/ame]
Amy27
Task Force
The hay you are feeding her is good. I will see if I can find the links I have that tells the calcium content of greens and hay. I think she will be fine, but I am not an expert. But Chase has made it through 2 bladder stone removals and 1 bladder sludge. I would make sure she is checked on a regular basis to make sure the sludge stays gone. That is one of the problems when you don't know the cause you can't really tell if what you are doing is helping without taking them back in to the vet for them to do an x-ray to check the progress.
I would ask the vet when you pick her up if you should syringe water. I would soak the greans and try to offer her more options to drink out off and do what tonyshuman said about maybe adding some flavor to the water. When I added flavor I always added another regular water thing, so if I put flavor in her water bowl I added a bowl of regular water and left regular water in her bottles. That way she still has plenty of options to drink the regular water if she does not prefer the flavoring. Chase never took to the flavoring. Currently in Chase's cage she has 3 water bowls, 3 water bottles, and a cat water foutain. I make sure every step she takes there is an option to drink.
I cut out parsley also except for maybe once a month I will give it. I use cilantro in place and my buns love it. I would also introduce the new greens slowly so you can tell if one is messing with her system.
Activity will get the urine moving around in the bladder which will also get the sludge moving, so the more she moves hopefully more sludge will be passed when she urinate. Sludge tends to sit at the bottom of the bladder and so it doesn't always come out as much when they urinate. I know there is a way you can massage the bladder to keep the sludge moving around and that is suppose to get more sludge out when they urinate, but I never really did that. You would want to check with your vet on that and they would need to show you how.
Another thing to think about is any treats she is getting. Those could contain a lot of calcium.
If you have stairs let her run up and down the stairs. That will make her more active and will really get the sludge moving around.
This website lists the types of hay. When you click on the type of hay it will give you the calcium content.
http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/hay.htm#Bunny%20Blend
This one also lists calcium content of hay.
http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/caforage.html
Calcium content of veggies
http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html
This is from the HRS and discuss lots of different ways to lower calcium and what foods may help
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html
This is a list from the HRS about bunny safe greens. You want to make sure the low calcium greens you decide to try are safe http://www.rabbit.org/care/veggies.html
Here is the thread in the library. There is some great information there in the links. I know that in the thread for Chase and Luna there are a lot of suggestions so I would take the time to read them.
ETA it would help if I put the link to the library thread lol http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12052&forum_id=10
I would ask the vet when you pick her up if you should syringe water. I would soak the greans and try to offer her more options to drink out off and do what tonyshuman said about maybe adding some flavor to the water. When I added flavor I always added another regular water thing, so if I put flavor in her water bowl I added a bowl of regular water and left regular water in her bottles. That way she still has plenty of options to drink the regular water if she does not prefer the flavoring. Chase never took to the flavoring. Currently in Chase's cage she has 3 water bowls, 3 water bottles, and a cat water foutain. I make sure every step she takes there is an option to drink.
I cut out parsley also except for maybe once a month I will give it. I use cilantro in place and my buns love it. I would also introduce the new greens slowly so you can tell if one is messing with her system.
Activity will get the urine moving around in the bladder which will also get the sludge moving, so the more she moves hopefully more sludge will be passed when she urinate. Sludge tends to sit at the bottom of the bladder and so it doesn't always come out as much when they urinate. I know there is a way you can massage the bladder to keep the sludge moving around and that is suppose to get more sludge out when they urinate, but I never really did that. You would want to check with your vet on that and they would need to show you how.
Another thing to think about is any treats she is getting. Those could contain a lot of calcium.
If you have stairs let her run up and down the stairs. That will make her more active and will really get the sludge moving around.
This website lists the types of hay. When you click on the type of hay it will give you the calcium content.
http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/hay.htm#Bunny%20Blend
This one also lists calcium content of hay.
http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/caforage.html
Calcium content of veggies
http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html
This is from the HRS and discuss lots of different ways to lower calcium and what foods may help
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html
This is a list from the HRS about bunny safe greens. You want to make sure the low calcium greens you decide to try are safe http://www.rabbit.org/care/veggies.html
Here is the thread in the library. There is some great information there in the links. I know that in the thread for Chase and Luna there are a lot of suggestions so I would take the time to read them.
ETA it would help if I put the link to the library thread lol http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12052&forum_id=10
Amy has all the right info for a good reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amy27
Task Force
I agree with you angieluv on the subq fluids. That will get even more fluids through the bladder to flush more out.
Another thing I forgot to say was another poster who said using bottle water. That is a great idea. The water you could be giving your buns could contain calcium. I got a water filter for the kitchen sink faucet so the water the greens soak in is pure and then use bottled water for there drinking bowls and bottles.
Thanks angieluv, it is nice to be able to help someone out. I know how frustrating and scary it is.
I know my vet also said something in carrots can affect calcium or the way it is processed so I limit the amount of carrots they get. I tried so many different things I am sure I will think of more later. But i know there are a lot of things in the threads about Chase and Luna that I may not have tried so I may not think to put them here but it might be something you want to try.
Another thing I forgot to say was another poster who said using bottle water. That is a great idea. The water you could be giving your buns could contain calcium. I got a water filter for the kitchen sink faucet so the water the greens soak in is pure and then use bottled water for there drinking bowls and bottles.
Thanks angieluv, it is nice to be able to help someone out. I know how frustrating and scary it is.
I know my vet also said something in carrots can affect calcium or the way it is processed so I limit the amount of carrots they get. I tried so many different things I am sure I will think of more later. But i know there are a lot of things in the threads about Chase and Luna that I may not have tried so I may not think to put them here but it might be something you want to try.
Amy27
Task Force
Chase is about 5. I am not sure how old Luna is. My vet told me 5 is middle age. But she didn't seem to think age had anything to do with it. I think that might depend on if there is an underlying disease though and what it is. I don't know this for sure but bladder or kidney disease could have an effect on the calcium and I don't know if bladder or kidney disease has anything to do with age.
If you are able to find out what the underlying problem is, that would help a lot. But it seems to be very hard to figure out. I know blood tests checking the kidney and bladder function and checking for infection was one of the main tests my vet did to try and find the underlying problem. But every test we ran was negative. CHase had a biopsy taken and a full blood test done and the bladder stone was sent to be analyzed. None of them really showed anything that would cause calcium build up in the bladder.
My vet also told me that a lot of bunnies have sludge. Some just don't have enough to effect them. She stated people come in all the time for another problem such as having problems breathing she will x-ray the chest and see the sludge. I don't remember the exact percentage she told me, I know it is in one of my threads in the library.
I really think calcium issues are something we will not have good answers on for years. Which can make it hard to treat and hard to find out why it is happening, without professionals knowing more about it themselves.
There are several stories of siblings living together eating and drinking the same thing, getting the same amount of exercise and one will get bladder sludge or stones and the other one won't.
ETA: If you don't mind me asking where do you live. Not your exact location but general location. The only reason I ask is because where I live in Columbus, Ohio there isa great rabbit vet. She teaches exotics at Ohio State University, written books on rabbits for other vetsand only sees exotics and has for years.
If you are able to find out what the underlying problem is, that would help a lot. But it seems to be very hard to figure out. I know blood tests checking the kidney and bladder function and checking for infection was one of the main tests my vet did to try and find the underlying problem. But every test we ran was negative. CHase had a biopsy taken and a full blood test done and the bladder stone was sent to be analyzed. None of them really showed anything that would cause calcium build up in the bladder.
My vet also told me that a lot of bunnies have sludge. Some just don't have enough to effect them. She stated people come in all the time for another problem such as having problems breathing she will x-ray the chest and see the sludge. I don't remember the exact percentage she told me, I know it is in one of my threads in the library.
I really think calcium issues are something we will not have good answers on for years. Which can make it hard to treat and hard to find out why it is happening, without professionals knowing more about it themselves.
There are several stories of siblings living together eating and drinking the same thing, getting the same amount of exercise and one will get bladder sludge or stones and the other one won't.
ETA: If you don't mind me asking where do you live. Not your exact location but general location. The only reason I ask is because where I live in Columbus, Ohio there isa great rabbit vet. She teaches exotics at Ohio State University, written books on rabbits for other vetsand only sees exotics and has for years.
I am from Canada. The vet that I am seeing now seems to have experience in taking care of rabbits with bladder sludge because they told me of other stories of rabbits they have previous treated.
Did any of your bunnies develop urinary incontinance after their bladder stone condition?? Tazzy seems to be peeing all over the place since we found out about her bladder sludge, she usually uses her litter box, but I am hoping that it is only termporary because of the bladder sludge and treatment.
Did any of your bunnies develop urinary incontinance after their bladder stone condition?? Tazzy seems to be peeing all over the place since we found out about her bladder sludge, she usually uses her litter box, but I am hoping that it is only termporary because of the bladder sludge and treatment.
Ok Tazzy is finally at home now, she is so skinny now. She is still passing bloody urine and the doctor has her on baytril. She seems to be hopping a little funny since we bought her home from the vet, she is able to hop but looks a little wierd. Could this be due to the bladder sludge and the fact that she was kept in a cage for three days at the doctor's office? Glad that my bunny is home but still very worried about her.
Thanks
Thanks
Amy27
Task Force
Chase did not develop what I would call urinary incontinence. But when she was in pain she would go on the floor which was unlike her. She usually uses her litter box. I still think she could control it but she would move around and try to use the bathroom everywhere to make herself feel better. She also couldn't empty her bladder so she would go in one spot and 5 minutes later go in another spot. She would also sit real funny when she tried to go. Whenever that happened I took her to the ER vet to get pain drugs and fluids. The good news is once the stones and sludge where gone she started using her litter box again like she never stopped.
She maybe hopping funny if she is in pain or uncomfortable. Chase never had the procedure that I think yours did. From your posts I am guessing your vet flushed her bladder. Is that correct? I am not sure if it is normal to be uncomfortable after that procedure or not.
I would keep watching her and if she is still moving funny and urinating where she usually doesn't I would call the vet and ask them if she could be in pain and if they could give her some pain meds. I would also keep pushing fluids. When she urinates is she arching her back and keep changing positions?
She maybe hopping funny if she is in pain or uncomfortable. Chase never had the procedure that I think yours did. From your posts I am guessing your vet flushed her bladder. Is that correct? I am not sure if it is normal to be uncomfortable after that procedure or not.
I would keep watching her and if she is still moving funny and urinating where she usually doesn't I would call the vet and ask them if she could be in pain and if they could give her some pain meds. I would also keep pushing fluids. When she urinates is she arching her back and keep changing positions?
ra7751
Well-Known Member
Umm....this is an interesting thread. I have dealt with sludge/stones many times. Few things to think about. The calcium issue is the forefront. There is no evidence that calcium intake leads to bladder sludge. I would not assumecalcium unless a urinalysis has shown absolute proof of excessive calcium in the urine. Rabbits do metabolize calcium differently than most animals. And there will be calcium in the urine. But at the same time, if you reduce calcium to a very low level, that can lead to a condition known as Metabolic Bone Disease. Something I see often in wildlife....and sometimes in domestic rabbits. Properly absorbing calcium is vital in keeping bones strong....and this is especially true in rabbit in which the bone mass in the body compared to the strength of the muscles can lead to fractures. Vitamin D3 is essential in the correct absorbing of calcium in the body. Many inside rabbits that are fed lower quality foods are prone to calcium issues due to a lack of D3. The body can't produce D3 on it's own. It requires either dietary supplements...or exposure to direct and unfiltered sunlight. There has to be some calcium intake to maintain strong bones. Oddly enough, I was talking to one of my vets about this particular issue just this morning.
The sludge in the bladder can also be the result of a combination of hard water (lots of minerals) and genetics. At one time, Oxbow offered a low mineral content water. Some people try distilled water....but the body has to have some minerals.
The sludge might also be shedding spores from an active EC infection....and your statement that there was some neurological deficiencies as far as hopping differently at least raises the idea that EC might be involved.
Baytril is never my first choice of antibiotics in rabbits. Just isn't usually up to the task. I would prefer to see a urinary culture to pinpoint the possible infection. Isotonic fluids are essential in flushing the urinary tract. I also tend to acidify the system....and fresh cranberry or extract seems to help. But the bottom line....lots of fluids are the best treatment for urinary issues.
Randy
The sludge in the bladder can also be the result of a combination of hard water (lots of minerals) and genetics. At one time, Oxbow offered a low mineral content water. Some people try distilled water....but the body has to have some minerals.
The sludge might also be shedding spores from an active EC infection....and your statement that there was some neurological deficiencies as far as hopping differently at least raises the idea that EC might be involved.
Baytril is never my first choice of antibiotics in rabbits. Just isn't usually up to the task. I would prefer to see a urinary culture to pinpoint the possible infection. Isotonic fluids are essential in flushing the urinary tract. I also tend to acidify the system....and fresh cranberry or extract seems to help. But the bottom line....lots of fluids are the best treatment for urinary issues.
Randy
Hi All
Ok it has been about 5 hours since I have brought my bunny home and she just doesn't seem like my loveable bunny anymore. She is peeing up a storm all over the floor and doesnt seem to really want to eat anything. Her bum in all wet from the pee, I am afraid that she might have urinary inconintence. Do bunnies with sludge usually act this way and does this ever go away?? I feelso depressed I am so afraid that I might never have my loveable bunny back to normal again. The doctors did a urinary culture to find out more about her bacteria. Has anyone go through an experience similar to this and did there bunny and did there bunny ever fully recover.
Ok it has been about 5 hours since I have brought my bunny home and she just doesn't seem like my loveable bunny anymore. She is peeing up a storm all over the floor and doesnt seem to really want to eat anything. Her bum in all wet from the pee, I am afraid that she might have urinary inconintence. Do bunnies with sludge usually act this way and does this ever go away?? I feelso depressed I am so afraid that I might never have my loveable bunny back to normal again. The doctors did a urinary culture to find out more about her bacteria. Has anyone go through an experience similar to this and did there bunny and did there bunny ever fully recover.
ra7751
Well-Known Member
You might want to seriously consider having a full CBC with EC titer. There are only a few labs in the US that can properly titer for EC. Watch for some type of neuro marker in the left rear leg....may an unusual hop, possibly an odd stretch or maybe even a stumble....might be very slight. And I would be very interested to know if any bacteria is found in the urine culture.
Randy
Randy
She is not eatting at all now and has been grinding her teeth very loud. I think she must be in pain and the vet is not open utnil monday. I am so worried that I am going to lose my little girl over the weekend. I am going to syringe feed her some papya tablets but I dont have an critical care to feed her, is there something else I can use to subsitute for the time being until monday?
I think your girl needs to see an emergency vet. She desperately needs, at least, some pain meds. Something like Metacam which is also an anti-inflammatory might be a good bet.
She also needs fluids. Sub Q fluids is probably the best thing for her because she may be getting dehydrated, and equally, if she is not eating, those fluids will help her guts.
If you want to syringe feed her then you could soak her regular pellets in hot water and wait fr it to cool and then syringe feed it. You'll need to make it quite runny to make sure that it is syringable.
How is she doing now?
She also needs fluids. Sub Q fluids is probably the best thing for her because she may be getting dehydrated, and equally, if she is not eating, those fluids will help her guts.
If you want to syringe feed her then you could soak her regular pellets in hot water and wait fr it to cool and then syringe feed it. You'll need to make it quite runny to make sure that it is syringable.
How is she doing now?
