Antibiotic side effects/Bladder stone/Blood in urine

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neri18

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Pippin was on Baytril and Reglan for 5 days. His doses just ended Saturday morning and some of his poops have been moister than usual while on it. He had some stasis that they thought was caused by a UTI and he's been eating great and drinking like normal the whole time he was on the meds. Most of his poops are normal and round and it looks like he's been eating some because I see him reaching down and munching something. They're all green in color with the moister ones being a brighter green. It also looks like he might be dribbling a little. I don't think it's pee because it smells more poopy than ammonia/pee. It's usually just a few drops but sometimes it's more smeared on the carpet. It's not diarrhea. I was just wondering if this extra moist poops could be a side effect from the antibiotics and how long it might take to return to normal. He seems his normal self, pretty happy and comfortable, and not acting like anything is bothering him. His urine seemed rusty colored but it looks like it's returning more to a yellow-brown color. I don't want to take him to the vet unless he starts acting like something is wrong. I just don't want them to assume it's something and give him meds when it's just a side effect that will wear off. Would giving him some Bene-bac help to dry things up more and get everything more normal? Like I said, he doesn't seem sick at all and he eats, drinks, and uses his litterbox fine, he just has some dribbles and his butt is damp.
 
He should have been given a pro-biotic while he was on the antibiotics, but I don't think giving some to him now will hurt. I give mine half an acidophilus capsule about three hours after the antibiotic dose.

Try and encourage more hay and water consumption. Maybe try new varieties of hay and give him small handfuls of fresh hay all the time to encourage him.

You can also soak his veggies and try a separate bowl of water spiked with a capful or two of juice -- preferable cranberry. (I have to give Pipp a cranberry/apple mix flavor before she laps it up). I also just discovered she loves cucumber juice. She's normally a bunny who never drinks water but I saw some sludgy pee recently so we're on a hydration regime.

Canned pumpkin is also a great source of wet fiber, that should help both the wet cecals and the UTI.

PS: Its important to NOT judge a bunny's health by his demeanor. Rabbits hide their illnesses to avoid being targeted by their many natural enemies. I don't know that a five day course of Baytril is sufficient for a UTI, not my area of expertise (and you'll probably hear that a lot of our knowledgeable members really hate Reglan) so watch him very carefully. The current 'dampness' may be a 'wet cecal' by-product because of the Baytril, but it also may be that the infection hasn't been totally eradicated. Not sure about Baytril, the antibiotic I'm using for a respiratory infection says to continue it for at least 48 to 72 hours after the symptoms disappear.

sas :clover:
 
He eats plenty of hay and he drinks a normal amount of water. He's really picky with pumpkin and that stuff. He's never wanted anything to do with it. The majority of his poops are normal and round and drier, it looks like it might just be the cecotropes that are moister. I know they can hide their illnesses but when he's sprawled out on the floor being lazy or flopped over and conked out it seems pretty typical of his normal, happy relaxed behavior. Before he was just hunched up all the time and hiding under the bed. I know some vets seem to just jump to conclusions and prescribe something, or some just send them home, so I wanted to give it a few days because it seems to be getting better each day. I just didn't know if there were any side effects to the medications.
 
Umm...well, I do not agree with giving Reglan or any other GI motility drug to a rabbit. They were not intended to be used in this type of digestive system. In my non-professional opinion, they should never be used in a rabbit. They induce very painful contractions which in some situations can cause some undesirable results. Much too risky when compared to the potential of anything positive. And the pain they cause due to the contractions can cause GI issues in itself. The proper and most effective treatment for stasis (other than prevention) is hydration. And I didn't see any mention of supplemental fluids...and that is the first thing you would do with a UTI.

As far as the Baytril....again not a drug that is used by many exotic vets these days....it isa broad spectrum antibiotic that can stress the gram positive bacteria in the GI. Inyearspast, Baytril has been a life saver to many rabbits but it's effectiveness has taken a beating in recent years (much like most Penicillinsin humans) Manyantibioitcs given orally will upset the bacterial balance in the GI to some degree....the worst offenders are penicillins, cephalosporins and sulfanomides. When this bacteria becomes stressed, it starts to die off. When the beneficial bacteria's population is reduced, it is easier for harmful bacteria, primarily Clostridium but also E Coli sometimes, to grow. These bacteria are toxic and irritate the lining of the digestive tract. The body will respond by producing a mucus in an effort to give a protective coating to the lining of the GI and this usually presents itself as fecal matter that is covered by a thick greenish tinted mucus. Bene Bac or another appropriate probiotic will certainly help. Probiotics work by acidifying the gut....they change and stabilize the pH in the digestive system. A rabbit requires an acidic climate in the GI in order to have a stable population of beneficial bacteria. We use Bene Bac quite a bit here in our wildlife rescue to manipulate the pH. And of course, unlimted amounts of hay and lots of hydration would be in order. In some really bad cases of stasis, we do use an antibiotic.....Metronidazole. But it's not so much the abx part we need....the anti-inflammatory properties of this drug when used in GI events is very effective.

Anda little side note on Baytril. It has been so misused in the veterinary community that many bacteria, particularly Pasteurella, is becoming resistant. I rarely use Baytril here and when I do, it is dosed differently than most vets would use and it always administered by injection ( and I do not use Baytril for domestic animals except chinchillas....only use it otherwise incottontails). And even if it works, I don't think 5 days is proper anx protocol....again, non-professional opinion. We generally go 10 days minimumor 5 days after symptoms disappear whichever is longer. I live near a major vet school and we are fortunate to have many exotic focus vets....and they have all but dropped the use of Baytril.

And I hope I am wrong, but I think something more is going on here....and one comment concerns me in that the vet "thought". While I have the utmost respect for all vets regardless of their specialities....I also expect a lot. And I expect them to know, not think. And I am going to think here.....I think there should be some diagnosis here starting with a full urinalysis along with a CBC w/EC titer. I like to be sure of what I am dealing with....and with a rabbit and the way they can hide problems....it is even more important to know what is going on as there is usually very little "wiggle room".

Randy
 
Sounds like he's doing great on all fronts, but still good to keep an eye on him. :)

The 'cure' for mushy cecals, which maybe caused by the antibiotics but also just the change in his diet from when he wasn't eating much, or from the treats we always try to bribe them with when they're not feeling well.

The 'cure' regardless is fiber, fiber, more fiber and hydration. Vets will usually say to ONLY give them hay and water but the UTI requires even more hydration so it's a bit of a balancing there with the veggies. If his appetite is good, you can cut back on his pellets, though. If you can get him eating more grass hay than usual, that will help.

Too bad about the pumpkin. I finally convinced my non-pumpkin-eater to start eating it up, but I had to keep sticking pellets on the stuff, warming it up, drying it out, etc, before he developed a taste for it.

I think you should use the probiotic, it may help as well.


sas :)
 
I took Pippin to the emergency vet again and told them what had been going on. The vet felt around and said she felt what she is almost sure is a kidney stone. She did an x-ray but it didn't show up on it but she was very clearly able to feel it and she was able to massage it back into the bladder so it wasn't blocking his urinary tract. She gave me some pain meds and gave me the name of an exotic animal vet to call on Tuesday to set up a surgery hopefully that day. The timing is really bad because I have to be out of town from Thursday to Sunday so I'm trying to get this squeezed in. I may have to call out from work on Tuesday which is also bad timing since we're so short staffed. I have my capable sister who will be caring for him while I'm gone but it's just getting so stressful. I was just looking into pet insurance too and he had to get sicker on a holiday weekend. It's like I just can't win this time around. I know it will be expensive but I'm hoping it won't be more than I can afford with everything added together.
 
Oh dear. Good luck with the kidney stone. I am sure they will do an x-ray before operating, but make sure you ask for one just in case. It is possible that it could be a blockage in the GI tract. If it is a kidney stone, it can't be operated on--it has to be in the bladder to be removed. Make sure you push the fluids for him until you can get him in to the specialist.

I would take him off the reglan as well--it's probably what's causing the strange poop, not the Baytril. Give him some Bene-Bac for sure.

Good luck and keep us updated.
 
Sorry, I meant to say bladder stone not kidney stone. An x-ray was done but nothing showed up, so they said it could be radiolucent. The er vet said she definitely felt a hard lump though and she was able to move it back into the bladder. I had to take him back again (first time at 2am, second time at noon) because there were a few tiny bits of what looked like blood clots or bloody tissue stuck to his soft poos. They said despite being soft the poos were normal. He's been eating and drinking fine and they said to just keep an eye on him and if it gets worse to bring him back, otherwise he should be okay until I take him to the exotic animal vet tomorrow. I've spent over $600 on him in a week and I don't know how much more I can afford. I have to wait and see what they say but if it's going to be a chronic problem I just can't afford that kind of care and I couldn't put him through it. It's all just waiting to see what the vet says tomorrow. I'm using my last sick day on this and I have to be out of town thursday-sunday for work so I have no idea what will happen. My sister can help with any meds he'll need and watch him, but it's just hugely bad timing. I really can't afford to spend much more money because I've just been going in circles so far. It's rough when you don't have a lot of rabbit vets around and he always seems to get sick during off-hours. It's hard taking time off work to get everything done too and the money situation right now is adding stress. I just have no idea what I'll hear tomorrow but I'm hoping things go smoothly and it will be good news.
 
The blood in the poos and the fact that it didn't show up on x-ray bother me. I guess it is possible that the stone is transparent to x-rays, but that would be very rare, from what I've read about bladder stones. I worry that it is something else and the pushing around caused some internal bleeding, particularly if it is a large obstruction in the GI tract, or a tumor.

How sure are you that he is a he? Where did you get him, and have you had him neutered or was he neutered when you got him? The reason I ask is because it sounds like it could also be an infection or tumor of the uterus, but of course that would mean that he had been mis-sexed, so I wonder what the chance of him being mis-sexed is.

I hope you don't mind, I am going to change the title to get more relevant replies from others.


Check out this library article: Urinary Tract Problems
 
I took him to the exotic savvy vet this morning and she was really nice. She said she didn't feel any stones in his bladder and she was going to do an ultrasound and blood test to see if she could figure out what was wrong. He's there being observed right now because she's not comfortable doing any surgeries until she knows what's wrong. I'm just worried it will be something beyond my financial means to keep treating and I'll have to make some tough decisions. It's hard waiting to get information.

I'm 100% sure Pip is male. It's pretty obvious :) I was actually going to start looking into getting him neutered by the end of the year but that might have to be pushed back with everything that's going on. It's getting expensive pretty quickly even with my emergency savings put aside. I got him at a pet store when he was about 2 1/2 months old. He's never had any major health issues before so this was all pretty sudden. He was fine and everything had been routine, no diet changes or anything, and then things just went downhill. I just want some answers at this point so I know what needs to be done. I don't mind if you change the title. I'd appreciate any feedback that might help solve it. As soon as I get some info I'll update everyone.




 
Ok, good to hear you know Pip is a boy. I'm also glad the vet doesn't want to operate until she knows for sure there's a stone there.

Bunnies can be quite expensive. Good luck, and I hope you get some good news soon!
 
I forgot to add, the little bits of blood/tissue that was on his poop yesterday only happened that one time. I haven't seen any since then so I don't know what it was from. He was still eating and drinking fine this morning and ran right out to say goodmorning as soon as I turned on the light, so he didn't seem to be in pain. There was a small dark red stain on the carpet (could have been bloody urine or just rusty colored) but it didn't look like he'd urinated much if at all in the litterbox or anywhere else. I feel better knowing he's actually getting some tests and he's in the care of someone familiar with exotics, but it doesn't make the waiting for answers easier.
 
I finally got my Pip back and it's good news. They did a fecal smear, CBC, and ultrasound and everything turned up normal. There is no sign of any bladder stones so I'm relieved. They tried to get a urine sample but they said he was cranky and had an attitude and kept flipping over the empty litterbox they had for him and refused to use it. The vet didn't want to force anything and based on all the tests she was able to say it's just a bad UTI and he'll be on antibiotics for 2 weeks and he has a follow up appointment in 10 days. He decided to wait until we were safely on the road home before he finally peed in the carrier, so the poor thing has a pretty nasty butt. A butt bath will definitely be in order tomorrow. I don't want to put him through anything else tonight after the day he's had. Aside from being a little mad at me (can't blame him) he seems pretty happy. He's eating and drinking fine and they said his poop will be soft from the antibiotics and not to be concerned unless it turns into diarrhea and he may not urinate as often as normal until the infection starts to clear up a bit. I'm just relieved to have him home without having to go through a surgery or having it be something worse. Now we can both start to finally relax a bit.
 
Oh, whew. That's good to hear. I'm glad they did a fecal smear and ultrasound. No stones and no lumps and no blockages! I'm guessing the blood was from the bladder then, not from the GI tract.

Good luck with the treatment!
 
He seems to pee a bit at the same time as he leaves some droppings so the vet's best guess is that it was just blood from the urinary tract and it got on the poo. She said there didn't seem to be any problems with the GI tract. He puts up a little fight with the antibiotics but overall he seems to be feeling better. Now my only problem is just working on getting him better at his litterbox habits again once the infection clears up.
 
Ok, that sounds good, and makes more sense. Are you giving some probiotic as well? A bit of Bene-Bac can help with any possible GI side effects that he could get from the antibiotics, although I'm pretty sure the runny poops before were from the gut motility drug and not the antibiotic. I know Randy (an expert on here) always likes to have bunnies that are taking an antibiotic be taking a probiotic as well.
 
I used up my last tube of bene-bac on Friday so I need to go buy some more. I'd get the powder but he's so picky about anything new on his food, I don't want him to stop eating. Does it have a taste? Since I'm giving him syringes already I think the tube would be easier, even though he's not too fond of it. I tried squeezing a bit into the middle of a craisin, but he's too smart and wouldn't touch it. Can you dissolve the powder in the water bottle or would that not work?
 
My Tony loves the taste of the gel and will eat it out of the tube. Muffin also likes it, but will only eat it if it's on something else, like a crasin or canned pumpkin. Angieluv's bunnies don't like the gel, and she just sprinkles the powder on their wet greens, I think. You could put it in the water bottle, but unless he drinks a constant amount of water every day, it would be hard to get a constant dose into him.
 
Yeah Pippin is so picky about everything. He won't eat canned pumpkin either. He just likes to make things more difficult I think :) I can try the powder on his greens and maybe he won't notice it if it doesn't have a taste, or sprinkle some in with his pellets so I'm not having to hold him down for too many syringes. Even if I just do the water bottle thing I guess getting some that way is better than nothing. I always seem to end up with the pickiest animals lol. Maybe once he gets used to it he'll aquire more of a taste for it.
 
Yeah, something is better than nothing. Another option if you have farm stores nearby is a horse probiotic called ProBios that may have a more pleasant flavor. I haven't used it, so I don't know if it tastes good to bunnies. Pippin is a picky guy!
 
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