Another Tall Tale -- Enzymes

[JimD]

FreddysMom wrote:

The only thing ive seen bag balm used for is on new tattoos....it helps relieve the swelling and itchyness and to keep the skin moist...i was surprised to see it in there too

It was originally created to soften cow udders.

I can't find the list of what was in Buck's "bunnie box". Danielle wrote down everything that was in it. I wanted to post it, but now I can't find it! POOPIES!!! I think I may have left it at Carolyn's.

Oh well....I'll just have to go back to Carolyn's and make another list....and have some more beer...and have another BBQ....and have some more fun......but I think we'll pass on doing more fireworks .

 

[Carolyn]

That's got to be it, Jim. He usually would recommend neosporin, but since there was none of that in his kit, your answer must be the one as Buck wouldn't tattoo his rabbits because they were pets.

Thanks! Looking forward to our next BBQ!! Already can't wait. :bunnydance:

-Carolyn

 

[pamnock]

Carolyn wrote:

That's got to be it, Jim. He usually would recommend neosporin, but since there was none of that in his kit, your answer must be the one as Buck wouldn't tattoo his rabbits because they were pets.

Thanks! Looking forward to our next BBQ!! Already can't wait. :bunnydance:

-Carolyn

Yes -- it's generally used to treat sore hocks -- can also be applied to "puddin' butts" to help keep them clean.

Pam

 

[Lazyacre]

Carolyn, as noted in the article Pam quoted, the enzymes will not induce the rabbit gut to start moving again, at best it breaks up the proteins (mucous) holding the fur and other debris together, so that when the gut moves the contents may pass. They have no effect on the fur itself. If the GI Stasis isn't treated first the enzymes are useless. GI motility drugs (metoclopramide and cisapride) do have a place as they increase peristalsis, getting things moving and if any fur balls are broken up the debris can then be excreted.

Fur balls form because of GI Stasis, not cause it. If the gut is kept moving there will be not fur balls. When we raised Jersey Woolys we never had furballs or had to use any of the enzymic treatments. We fed extra hay during molt and to does pulling fur. This extra fiber worked to keep their guts moving and scrubbed. here is an old link http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

and this one (a little crude in title) from HRS

http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/rwf/articles/gi_stasis_pet.htm

 

[Carolyn]

Thank you!

Wasn't sure that GI Stasis came before the fur block, although Pam has told that it's often found in? conjunction with a bacterial infection.?I thought the fur block is what caused it and/or the rabbit's immune system isn't keen enough to fight the infection, hence following would the be the fur block.?

Thank you for the clarification folks!?

-Carolyn

 

[seniorcats]

Lazyacre wrote:

Carolyn, as noted in the article Pam quoted, the enzymes will not induce the rabbit gut to start moving again, at best it breaks up the proteins (mucous) holding the fur and other debris together, so that when the gut moves the contents may pass. They have no effect on the fur itself. If the GI Stasis isn't treated first the enzymes are useless. GI motility drugs (metoclopramide and cisapride) do have a place as they increase peristalsis, getting things moving and if any fur balls are broken up the debris can then be excreted.

Fur balls form because of GI Stasis, not cause it. If the gut is kept moving there will be not fur balls. When we raised Jersey Woolys we never had fur balls or had to use any of the enzymic treatments. We fed extra hay during molt and to does pulling fur. This extra fiber worked to keep their guts moving and scrubbed. here is an old link http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

and this one (a little crude in title) from HRS

http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/rwf/articles/gi_stasis_pet.htm

Hi Rick and thanks for the information. Sowould this mean that using cat hairball remedies on rabbits is useless in the treatment of GI stasis? And possibly harmfull (based on the first article)?

A number of my friends use the hairball remedies on their rabbits but I prefer to increase the fiber.

Thanks for your response,

Ann

 

[pamnock]

A bacterial infection (such as E. coli) can often follow the GI stasis. When the gut stops working properly, harmful bacteria often propagate. This is why antibiotics are helpful in some cases.

Pam

 

[Lazyacre]

GI Stasis can have many causes, infection, bacterial or viral, antibiotics, and stress are just a few common causes. Whatever the reason, the rabbit will begin to have decreased intake as the gut slows down, stopping food intake and then not drinking. It doesn't take long for dehydration to set in. Eventually fur block may develop. Most important is to keep the rabbit eating while detirmining and treating the cause of the GI slowdown.

First sign of decreased appetite, I check to make sure the rabbit's water supply is working. Then I add fiber to the diet. Often added fiber is all that's needed to scrub out the GI tract and keep things going. If the rabbit wont eat or drink I syringe feed. I use banana flavored Ensure and Pedialyte, fed with a curved tip syringe. In servere cases I'll give lactated Ringers SQ (arthritis has made my IV techinque rather worthless). lacking LR Normal Saline (as in contact lense solutions) can be given. I give boluses of 5-10cc SQ under the skin. there are meds (such as Reglan- Rx only) which speed up intestinal movements and may get things moving, returning the appetite.I know from experience that enzymes, such as in meat tenderizers, do work to break up mucous and food particles in the gut, we used it to clear plugged NG feeding tubes in ourICU patients. But there is little use in breaking up any furball until the gut is moving. Paste type furball treatments may help to alleviate GI Stasis by laxative effect, drawing fluids from intestinal cells, softening contents (may also further dehydration though). This is how mineral oil helps, but as Pam said danger of aspiration pneumonia is great. for the adventerous, there is possibility of small mineral oil enemas.....

 

[pamnock]

I also will give the rabbit some dandelion leaves ASAP when a rabbit goes off its feed.There's no way to prevent GI stasis, and some rabbits are more prone to blockage than others.

Pam

 

[Lazyacre]

Dandilions are great tonic for rabbits, but I have to visit my neighbor's field to get em. Diligent gardening has eliminated them from my acre of lawnI like to use them for most rabbit ills. May not be able to prevent at least some slow down but complete blockage is usually preventable if caught soon enough.

 

[seniorcats]

Here is some information I got last year from Len Donatao, VMD in Radnor, PA. He previously gave me permission to quote him.

Last summer, a group of friends from the US and Canada came to my house for a bunny//human meet up (similar to Boat house Bunnies).One of my friends flew himself and his rabbit in from NY in a small Cessna. After returning home, his rabbit developed GI stasis and was successfully treated at Cornell.

The following are some of Dr. Donato's thoughts on GI Stasis:

This happens to be what I refer to as my "soapbox" for rabbits. There is a very common misconception among many veterinarians that "stasis" is a diagnosis. Stasis is a clinical sign of another problem. Just like anemia is not a disease but an effect from disease. Some examples of things causing stasis in rabbits: chronic kidney failure, clostridial infections, inappropriate diet, liver infections, parasites like coccidia, and many many more.

The reason it is important to make the distinction is veterinarians can direct treatment toward the underlying problem and properly educate clients - result=better care for bunnies.

It sounds to me that the stress of flying had altered the cecal bacterial flora. Likely result-clostridial infection. Your veterinarian probably gave fluids either in the office and/or you gave them at home (many use juices or critical care) and a medication to take home. All things that get the bunnies through the crisis until they get better on their own.

Where the problem comes in is if there is some long standing disease(liver, kidney, cancer)- the bunny will get temporarily better and then start to decline again. Now precious time has been wasted on a problem that may have originally been simple and now has become complicated.

I have probably hours more to talk on this but I don't want to bombard everyone with details that put roomfuls of people to sleep.

(Dr. Donato was advised the bunnies spent time in the back yard in pens. I had cleared away the black walnut leaves, just incase, and some the bunnies munched on grass, clover and dandelions).

I didn't realize your bunny had been eating grass at the picnic. Certain grasses, even if they have had them before can also cause an imbalance in bacterial flora. Depends on type of grass/quantity/quality....
It sounds like that, on top of the plane ride caused the problem. I would not desensitize your bunny to plane rides. Too much stress for a "prey species" I would avoid it if you could.
Hope this helped..

*****************************************************************

I thought the information might be useful.

 

[pamnock]

Excellent info seniorcats. Also would like to add that some rabbits have a genetic predisposition to GI stasis.

Pam

 

[seniorcats]

Thank you!

I no longer let my indoor bunnies munch grass outside because I can't control where the cats, raccoons, coyotes, foxes and birds have relieved themselves. I don't want them picking up coccidia or worse.

Ann

 

[Lazyacre]

"Worse" is more of a worry, Coccidia are breed specific, rabbits only need fear exposure to feces of Coccidia carrying rabbits. More of a threat would be E cuniculu, which can infect other animals and immune suppressed humans. It is passed viaurine. Also Pin Worms eggs may be ingested on the grass.

 

[FreddysMom]

wow! .. i really feel likei am in a lecture hall right now .. this is awesome how much info you can get from this forum

 

OK Ihave been following this threadwith growing interest and Iperked on Dandilion leaves ,

My question is Howwould a Tea made from theleaves and then addedto their dailywater work , would itor could it be benificial ?

I know in humans Dandilion Teais a good stomachstimulant and soother depending on whichstrength is used . There inlays the problem withusing it in water bottles , Knowingwhich strength would bemost benificial .

Please feel free to let me know if I a moff track with this ,it was just something thatpeaked my curiositty . Thanks .

 

[pamnock]

Some people have touted green tea as a medicinal for rabbits. In some cases of GI stasis, the rabbit is not drinking on its own and it's tough to syringe enough liquids into it. In order to get it hydrated, it may be necessary to take it to the vet to be put on ringers solution.

So far, I haven't found any treatment to be effective in all cases. As well as the dandelion leaves, I give Nutri Cal to any rabbits that go off their feed.



Pam

 

I agree onthe Nutri_ Cal I have 2 tubesone for the garage and one for the house, and latex free gloves forboth areas , unfortunatelyNutri_Cal has Iodine in it and I amhighly allergic , but thegloves keep me safe as long asI have a brain and dont forget to putthem on first .

 

[seniorcats]

Lazyacre wrote:

"Worse" is more of a worry, Coccidia are breed specific, rabbits only need fear exposure to feces of Coccidia carrying rabbits. More of a threat would be E cuniculu, which can infect other animals and immune suppressed humans. It is passed via urine. Also Pin Worms eggs may be ingested on the grass.

I didn't realize that coccidia is breed specific. The above information has me thinking about a friend's rabbit who passed away. I believe I posted here about it and I thinksome respondersmentioned enteritis.My friend'srabbit was a one year old neutered BEW lop, indoor rabbit. Diet was Manna Propellets, grass hay and the occassionalvegy//fruit treat. One day he was fine and then he had sudden massive, liquid diarrhea and collapse. His stool was negative for coccidia and worms. He was treated by a vet with antibiotics and fluidsbut passed away the same day.A necroscopy showed some inflammation in the intestines but was otherwise inconclusive.

What has me wondering is that my friend used to take her rabbits outside in the back yard where they nibbled grass, etc. She lives next door to the county fairground stables - literally the other side of the fence. I am wondering if something could have ended up on the lawn from the fairgrounds, for example, from snow melting or rainwater.

I guess I have always associated enteritis with much younger rabbits. Does it seem reasonable that there could have been a contaminant from the fair stables? Is enteritis common in adult rabbits? When I made my first post, I forgot to mention the bunny's age.

 

I have had2 cases here with enteritis onewas a baby one was an adult ,the baby pulled thru with a lotof vetting but theAdult unfortunately didnt ,No matterwhat we ( Vet and I ) triedeven subQ didnt help . maybe Had I gottenher sooner it would have made a difference, she was also on a nest of 12babies . which also subsequently sucummed.