And another question Color crossing

[weedflemishgiants]

Another friend of mine called me (I have unplugged the phone now- the last three days have been ridiculous) but anyway she told me she just had a litter of sandies from her white doe and not to tell anyone cause she plans to "knock them dead at the nationals"

Everyone in California is getting ready for 2009 ARBA which is why so many questions are coming up.

I have never crossed a sandy with anything but sandy. Not even a fawn. Oh that is not true. Once several years ago I crossed a fawn and sandy and it did have a great benefit. But I try not to cross steels or agoutis with solids.

But I know lots of people do. And I know lots of people really hate that practice.

Other than excellent agouti rings, why would a person cross a white to get sandy babies? Are they bigger or better colored or what?

Right after I talked to her another person told me they were crossing their sandy buck with a black doe which actually seems like an awful idea to me as far as the black line goes. How would you control the scattered white hairs in the blacks if it is crossed with a sandy?

And wouldn't that muddy up terribly the sandy color?

 

[TinysMom]

I am not a flemish breeder - I just love the breed. I was thinking though that either whites were bigger than Sandies (usually) or vice versa. So perhaps she did the crossing to get bigger bones/bigger rabbits in one particular line?

Just my thoughts - I'm probably way off..

 

[weedflemishgiants]

It has to be something like that. Except sandy babies from one white parent normally have spectacular agouti rings. Real clean.

So that is one thing.

And I believe whites and sandies are the two biggest of the varieties. I think.

So it may be that as well.

White to sandy makes more sense to me than black to sandy though.

 

[BlueGiants]

Sandy's are not supposed to have rings. The only color that should show rings are Light grays. The problem with crossing Whites to Sandy's is most Whites are out of or carry Light Gray. the Light Gray genes affects the undercoat color (giving the belly a bluish undercolor that is usually faulted.) The Sandy's will also show more white toenails and ear lacing. (More DQ's.)

People that cross Whites with Sandy's are looking for a shortcut. Either they have a great white and need to improve their Sandy's or visa-versa... Sandy's are usually bigger than Whites, but I have20 lb whites (NO Sandy's in them!) andnot allSandy's get huge.

You are doing it the right way. Certain colors should not be mixed, if you're serious about breeding to improve the breed and you want to be taken seriously by other breeders.

(Just my humble opinion, and what I work by...) Whites should be crossed with Whites or Light Grays. Sandy's should really be bred with Sandy's (or Fawns in very special circumstances.) Anything else, you're asking for problems. Sandy with Black is a terrible idea.(IMHO) Especially if the black carries blue. I know someone that crossed a black doe (out of blues!) with a white buck. The doe produced 8 babies. 2 black, 1 steel, 1 light gray, and 4 sandy's. Go figure. No whites (because the black doe didn't carry a recessive white gene.), no blues. I'd expect the Steels and Light Grays, but where did the Sandy's come from? The agouti gene is so strong, it only takes one parent. It had to come from the White buck. Now those babies will be sold, possibly to other breeders and they will wonder where all the weird colors are coming from when they breed them!

 

[weedflemishgiants]

For the most part I agree with you. But on the sandy agouti rings, if our sandies don't have them out here anyway it is an automatic DQ and if their rings are their but not clearly defined, that is a fault.

The judges blow in each and every sandy to determine how clear and well defined their agouti rings are.


Okay.Let's try it this way. What is the difference between thenormal agouti pattern of the sandy and rings in a light gray or whatever?

When the judge blows on the sandy- are the rings supposed to be irregular thus barred in appearance or if they seem to be symmetrically ringed three colored hair shafts is that the DQ you are talking about?

When I blow on myGC sandyher pattern does not appear very clear cut to me. Some judges say it and some don't. But another junior sandyIhave, when you blow on his fur he definately has three different colors on the hair shaft and they appear symmetrical.

 

[weedflemishgiants]

Okay I guess I am screwing up the definition between rings and agouti patterns.

LOL. Never mind that. I am aware of the irregular agouti pattern and that is what the judges want to have clearly defined.

Most people just call them rings and that is probably an error.

In my experience when people cross whites and sandies, or blacks and sandies, the offspring tend to be not much of color of anything. I mean the whites will be whites alright of course, but then any grays, or blacks will be faded and dull. And any sandy ends up muddy without a clearly defined agouti pattern and frequently they also lack the rufus gene so they are dull gray.



The sandy you are talking about had to have come from the white father. That is the problem with white isnot alwaysknowing what is four generations or five generations back.

That is why all my babies now have minimum five generation pedigrees. I don't like surprises down the line. But it can be difficult when a person first starts to have anything but three generation.