Advice needed- surprise litter

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SnowyandHazel

SnowyandHazel

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Hi all,
I'm new to the boards and feeling a little stressed- please be gentle with me. ;)

Our family has two rabbits - Snowy and Hazel, who are flemish/lionhead crosses. We adopted these two in the summer when they were about 4 months old, and I was told they were both girls. I even checked before we came home, and sure enough they both looked like females. Ive had rabbits before and even fostered- I feel like the difference is obvious, but they were all adults and I was wrong! A few months go by and about a week ago I went to trim Snowy's nails, and sure enough she has grown boy bits. I guess they were younger than I thought...

I've since read everything I could online about surprise litters and how to tell if your doe is pregnant, and she is. She's grouchy, vocal, starting to nest, and doesnt want anything in front of her face. I gently felt her underside and sure enough she has a few lumpy grapes in there that Snowy doesnt have. She's not yet pulling fur though. Ive read up on nutrition so I feel like I'm set there. She has warm nest area with lots of nesting materials.

Let me be VERY clear that I had NO intention on breeding rabbits, or adding to the overpopulation of pets in this world. As soon as she's weaned the kits I'll be spaying/neutering the adults.

I guess I need advice on a few things:

1) When to separate them. Ive read they can get pregnant while pregnant if only one side took (holy smokes!), so probably asap? I only hesitate because they're so closely bonded- theyre snuggling away as I type this. They are setup in a large outdoor run, that has a 2 story hutch inside the run (hutch door stays open so they can get in and out of the hutch, and still access their run area). I can lock Hazel in the hutch, which would let her still have her nest area and access grass on the bottom level, and still be able to sniff Snowy through the mesh. Is this the best option? I've read that's stressful to separate them, but I obviously have to. Having them separated but still have some contact through the mesh seems like the best option. Thoughts?

2) Outdoor stuff. They're outdoors - we're in the northwest pacific, October temps are around 55 during the day and high 40's overnight. Over the winter the overnight low is not usually colder than high 30's, so not usually freezing temps but cold enough. They have a warming pad made for rabbits (off Amazon) in their nesting box area that's built into the hutch. I've just ordered a 2nd one, so when I separate the two each will have a warming pad. I've added another covered box to the run part of their setup, so when they're separated Snowy will have his own box and warming pad. Both have lots of nesting material available. Is this enough? The box, warming pad, and nesting material? Especially for babies? I have 40" indoor cage that will accommodate two adults during sold snaps, but not big enough to accommodate mom & babies, plus a divider to have dad in there too so they dont lose their bond. Ideally they would stay outdoors, but I'll do what I need to.

3) If I take Snowy in to get neutered now - will they lose their bond? Will she take him back? Ive read to bring them in together in a divided carrier, and let them stay in post op together. Should I wait and bring them in together, or take him now risking they lose their bond?

3a) if I take him in to get neutered now, can he and Hazel stay together? Will he be ok with the babies?


I guess thats it! Thanks for the feedback, and in advance for not flaming me for the oops litter. I care a lot about these buns, and want the best for them.
 
You aren't the first to be told their buns are both boys or both girls, only to be surprised later when the rabbits fully mature. These things just happen.

I know you don't want to split them up, but they really need to be separated. Not only for the health of the doe, but if you aren't around when the babies are born and they are still together, she can actually get pregnant again. And I'm sure you don't want that :) Your plan for separating them but keeping it so they can still see each other, sounds like it would probably work well. Another option is getting her spayed right now, which will abort the babies. And you could get him neutered, then you wouldn't need to separate them and they could stay together. I don't think it's something that I would want to do, but I thought I would put it out there as an option.

If they are used to the outdoor temps then they should be fine, especially with a warm hide box insulated with hay. The babies though, have to have a cozy nesting area that prevents them from wandering off and getting cold. It's the warmth of the other babies and the hay and moms fur that will help them keep warm. So the nesting area needs to have a raised entrance so that mom can get in but the babies can't crawl out And also a small enough area that they can't wander too far off and get cold. So if the nesting area doesn't provide this, you may need a separate nesting box.

If you only take him to get neutered and not her yet, you still won't be able to keep them together for at least 4 weeks, maybe longer, and there's no guarantee on how the bond will go. It can take 4-8 weeks for the hormones to fully dissipate, so you may even have to wait 8 weeks, by which time the babies would also be weaned. But if she is spayed at the same time too, then you may need to separate them for a few days if he is trying to hump her, just because they both need a chance to heal, but after that they could be together. If he doesn't try and bug her then you should be ok to keep them together after their surgeries. It's really impossible to know if spaying/neutering will affect their bond at all. You just never know until you do it. Usually it doesn't, but that is always a possibility. If it were me I would get them fixed at the same time, whether it's now or later.

Whatever you decide with the babies, best of luck. If she does have them, make sure to keep us updated with cute baby pics :)
 
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Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply, I truly appreciate it. Do you think I should wait until the 2nd warming pad gets here on Saturday? He has a covered box full of hay- it supposed to go down to about 45 the next few nights.

And yes! I need to go build a short wall in the nest area. This is the hutch, so there's no wall between the nest area and the rest of the hutch (and it's upstairs to boot)
spec-1356555580-199357.jpg



If I have to separate them anyway, I might as well wait and get them fixed together at the same time. I wouldn't abort baby bunnies... I can provide for them if I have to. ;)
 
) When to separate them. Ive read they can get pregnant while pregnant if only one side took (holy smokes!), so probably asap? I only hesitate because they're so closely bonded- theyre snuggling away as I type this. They are setup in a large outdoor run, that has a 2 story hutch inside the run (hutch door stays open so they can get in and out of the hutch, and still access their run area). I can lock Hazel in the hutch, which would let her still have her nest area and access grass on the bottom level, and still be able to sniff Snowy through the mesh. Is this the best option? I've read that's stressful to separate them, but I obviously have to. Having them separated but still have some contact through the mesh seems like the best option. Thoughts? Yes, you need to separate them right now. These will help prevent anymore unwanted litters. If there is a mesh and snowy is no neutered they can still breed through it. It hear about it all the time. I would separate them in two different cages and make sure you have a divider between them, have it solid for at least 8 inches up the side, then the mesh is fine.

2) Outdoor stuff. They're outdoors - we're in the northwest pacific, October temps are around 55 during the day and high 40's overnight. Over the winter the overnight low is not usually colder than high 30's, so not usually freezing temps but cold enough. They have a warming pad made for rabbits (off Amazon) in their nesting box area that's built into the hutch. I've just ordered a 2nd one, so when I separate the two each will have a warming pad. I've added another covered box to the run part of their setup, so when they're separated Snowy will have his own box and warming pad. Both have lots of nesting material available. Is this enough? The box, warming pad, and nesting material? Especially for babies? I have 40" indoor cage that will accommodate two adults during sold snaps, but not big enough to accommodate mom & babies, plus a divider to have dad in there too so they dont lose their bond. Ideally they would stay outdoors, but I'll do what I need to.
With the nestbox make sure they have warm materials in it. In colder months I like to use carefresh bedding on the bottom of the nestbox(absorbent) I use shredded paper as one of the main materials along with hay, because it will be colder and because they are outside you can also use straw. Make sure the babies have a box and that they are in the covered section for the first 2-4 weeks of their life
3) If I take Snowy in to get neutered now - will they lose their bond? Will she take him back? Ive read to bring them in together in a divided carrier, and let them stay in post op together. Should I wait and bring them in together, or take him now risking they lose their bond?
I would get him neutered there is no need for him to stay intact and your just at risk of more unwanted babies. You will have to rebond them either way. It take 28-32 days for a rabbit to kindle and 6-8 weeks until you wean them, your buck should not be aloud in your females enclosure during that time. I would also give your doe 1-2 weeks of rest time after you wean the litter before you try to bond them again.
3a) if I take him in to get neutered now, can he and Hazel stay together? Will he be ok with the babies? Like answered before the answer is no, Hazel will be protective of her babies and Snowy will not care for the what so ever. It is not a good idea to keep them together separate them. Even though they are bonded once babies are involved they can become aggressive with each other and may possibly kill each other. These are just some questions that would be good to ask yourself. Do you have an extra cage for the babies? I would look up how to sex the kits so you don't end up with more unwanted litters. I would also start looking for homes. Do you have a nestbox for Hazel? It is very important that this is provided for her.Do you know what to do if she doesn't pull fur? (You can PM me for more questions in regards to this) You will have to check the nestbox on the first day for any dead kits, the dead ones will become cold and can chill the other kits (this will happen in old weather) Do you have an estimate on when she will deliver? You will need to have a nestbox in her cage so she can prepare it. I don't want to scare you but do you realize that this could possibly kill your doe? It may better to spay her if you would be willing. Im not sure if they will do it if she is to far along in her gestation, but this is an option so you can avoid babies all together. (Your choice) Another thing thats good to know is you can handle the babies from day one, I recommend this as it keeps the babies friendly! Another thing you will need to watch for is a wet nestbox if it gets cold out then that could kill the babies.Try to savor any of the doe's fur and then replace the bedding in the box. Hope everything works out for you!
 
She's all set up for nesting materials, I just need to add the wall so the babies dont get out. The nest box is completely dry - she's in a covered hutch, in a covered run.

Would it possibly kill her because she's young? Aborting the babies isn't something I'm willing to do... I really rather not talk about that part of it, even though I do understand there is potential benefit.
 
The babies can come out of the nestbox after they are two weeks old(Or whenever they open their eyes), just make sure to keep it in the cage so they can sleep in it during the night. The nest will eventually become wet because the kits will pee in it, the nest will need to be replaced. I would not allow her babies access to the run until they are at least 4 weeks old. This can just be a potential problem and another way they can be chilled. How old is she? If she is over 6 months then thats when breeders usually breed (I breed my doe's around 6-7 months for the first time) The thing that could kill her babies is her being a first time mom and not knowing what to do. Make sure to keep checking that the babies are well fed and covered with fur. Alright thats fine, I just wanted to make sure that you knew that was an option. Also what was your current diet for your doe? Kits should not have any veggies or fruit under 6 months of age, in doing this you can weaken their digestive system and make them more prone to gut and intestine problems like bloat and GI Stasis.
 
If he's been outside this whole time, he should be fine without the heating pad. With an enclosed box insulated with hay, that should be plenty warm. You may not even need to use the heating pads except when it's really cold. Your temps really aren't that bad, and your buns have probably already started to get a thicker coat for the colder temps.

Your bun isn't that young is she? Is she around 6-8 months now? That's usually breeding age for most rabbits. There's always a risk anytime a doe has babies, but most likely she'll be just fine. It wouldn't hurt though, to have the number of a rabbit vet handy, and an emergency vet, just in case.

http://rabbit.org/vet-listings/
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f28/finding-vet-13366/

Can't blame you about not wanting to abort the babies. I couldn't do it either.
 
Thank you everyone! Im guessing shes about 6ish months now - definitely not younger than 5.5 months.

I ran out and closed her in the hutch, and added a wooden board to make sure babies cant climb out. Thanks for the advice about not letting them out until 4 weeks, I will remember that.

They get a few cups of dark greens between them (mustard greens, kale, etc), a bowl of pellets every few days (although Ive had a continuous supply since I found out Snowy was a he and Hazel might be pregnant), and always lots of hay. They're also on the grass (with bars from a dog run under it so they dont dig out), so they eat grass as well. Thats about it - sometimes they get a few slices of apple or a handful of grapes, but not daily.

I guess when the kits are mobile, I should separate her while she eats greens?
 
and yes! I do have an extra setup that was going to be my indoor cold weather cage (we get snow some years, and none other years, so just in case). That can be a baby cage, once they're weaned.
 
Yes I would not allow the kits to the greens, it's not good for them!


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Poor Snowy is desperately trying to figure out how to get in the hutch. Poor lad. I've never seem him even try and mount her (although I know it only takes a second), so he hasn't been pestering her at least. Will she be less grouchy after being spayed? Snowy is friendly and outgoing as always, and she's been a real grouch these last 2 months, but I know that can happen in puberty. I look forward to having the Hazel I knew back, if possible.
 
Watch her close. Sometimes first time moms don't pull fur when they kindle. The kits won't last long without protection from the temps. If she doesn't pull any you can pull some hair from her belly...it will come out pretty easily. You could also cover the kits with some dryer lint, if necessary. Until the kits grow fur they can easily get chilled.
 
So, there's the warming pad (made for rabbits), a bunch of hay, and I added a whole bag of cotton balls. :) Assuming she nests there- I cant imagine why she wouldn't... thats the only place there is any bedding. I if I find them anywhere else (they'd probably be dead, but if they weren't) I could move them into the nest?

I have no idea when she will give birth. It must be close-ish if I can feel babies though? From what Ive read online Im guessing two weeks but obviously I have no clue.
 
Without knowing when she was bred, you really don't know. If you can feel them moving then I'd guess anytime from a couple days to a week or so. If you do find them somewhere else, cold, don't assume they're dead until you warm them up. Just don't heat them too fast or you'll cook them. Once they're warm and moving then put them in the nest and cover them good.
 
There are various ways. Some women will put them in their bra...contact with warm skin. You could also bring them inside, wrap in a warm towel and place in a box away from drafts. I've dipped them in a warm bowl of water, to the neck, while rubbing them. Just don't put them on a heating pad. I learned the hard way that you can overheat them too easy. :(
 
Gradual warming is key. You can also use a hot water bottle wrapped in a towel. This seem to work (Make sure it is just warm when the kit leans against it) And then you can put the kit by the water bottle in the towel. I like the suggestions that majorv gave. Also If one seems dead(Blue) but its still warm (Just born) you can give it chest compression with one finger and blow on its nose (For air) its like CPR for a person. Just make sure that the nose is clear. Also if you think there is a chance for them you can cup them in your hands and swing them up and down between your legs, to try and get them breathing again.
 
Thanks all! Im just really, really hoping I go out one morning to find a small, pink, fat belly litter in her nest... Ill of course post photos as soon as they get here.
 
I'm entirely new to the breeding world also, but my litter was planned and all babies have homes already and they're only 14 hours old.

My doe had her first litter 14 hours ago and she's a superb mom up to now, she plucked a huge amount of fur and the nest seems nice and warm. I will be checking soon for any still born kits as with their first litter there's a big possibility that there will be a still born kit/kits.

You seem like your all set for her to kindle, but as you don't know when she got caught it could be any moment, I've read up they usually give birth at night but my doe gave birth at 5.30pm.

I wish you luck and of course, your rabbit too!


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Well, she's taken to resting on her side which she rarely does- her little belly is pretty noticeable these days. Still waiting since I have no idea when she got pregnant. She isnt as grouchy though which is nice. Still no hair pulling, but I've loaded up her nest box with hay and cotton, and theres a rabbit/ferret warming pad in there. I guess any second now - cant wait to post pics and count babies, even though Im hoping for just a few (I mean one live and no losses would be ideal, but I know they dont tent to have just one!).
 
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