Seizure....any information woudl be appreciated

I wasn't going to post this but have been encouraged to do so in hopes that others might have been through something like this and can make suggestions or share comments.

I have a doe that we picked up last weekend. She's been doing fine and she was outside playing today and then she just laid down fora while and acted quiet. I picked her up to bring her inside because I was bringing all of the rabbits inside....and the next thing I know - she was having seizures and paralyzed in her front legs.

We cooled her down thinking it might have been heat stroke (even thoughshe had shown no other signs)...but we lost her within half an hour. She died in my arms as I was singing to her and cooing at her and trying to help her calm down.

I've shared about this on the list for lionhead breeders because lionheads have had seizures before - there are something like 30 or 40documented cases of seizures....which is rare when you consider the number of lionheads in the US.

For more details...it has been running about 67 in the rabbitry and it was 75 (at the highest temp) while they were outside. All the animals were under a shade tree and had water available. They were outside for maybe 3 hours....I was checking on them constantly (I have several pens). No other rabbits have shown any problems.

The rabbit had been in two other homes in the last few weeks before I got her...well...three really.

The only suggestion that has made any sense from various breeders was that possibly she got a spider bite playing outside OR perhaps something poisonous blew into the yard....yet our fence is 6' tall and it wasn't very windy today.

I am talking with other breeders about this and when someone who has tracked the seizure information gets back online later this week - I'm going to contact her and check out the bloodlines to see if we can track it through her pedigree.

Right now my heart is breaking.....she was a broken opal (I was thinking she was broken blue) and I just adored her. I had paid for her back in September and been waiting and waiting and WAITING to get her....I had been trying to buy her since last June (before she ever was up for sale).

If anyone knows anything....please share!

Peg

Awww, Peg, that's so awful! So sorry! :bigtears:She was such a pretty little thing.

No problems before hand with poops or pee? Was she short of breath or gasping or anything like that?

It could have been a stroke, brain lession, heart failure, toxins (fromparasites or something ingested), a problem with her central nervoussystem ... the possibilities are endless.

:dunno:

Maybe she was a quiet girl because she had been ill all along.

Here's a like about Encephalitozoon cuniculi...

http://www.rabbit.org/chapters/san-diego/health/vet-talk/cuniculi.html

And here's the Medirabbit site on seizures...

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/seizure.htm

I'll keep looking around.

Poor little girl. :bunnyangel: Poor Peg!

SAS and PIPP ink iris:

I'm about to head to bed but I hope I can explain this right. As a breeder - I enjoy all my rabbits(some more than others) - but there are some that just tug at your heart strings. Art & I agreed when I started breeding rabbits that when we came across those 'special' ones....we would make a "forever" home for them when we were done breeding them.

She'd only been here a week - but we had both agreed....she was a"forever" bunny. She was one of the sweetest and gentlest bunnies we had. In many ways, she personified the sweet and gentle side of lionheads - much as Miss Bea personifies the mischievous side...

So in a way - this hurts doubly hard as she was going to be a forever pet for us....

I'll probably post in Rainbow Bridge tomorrow - but I have to be able to stop crying first.

I have heard from other breeders about rabbits getting seizures -sometimes shortly after being bred, etc. etc. The other breeders are telling me to learn from it yes, but also move on - and that I didn't do anything wrong. Many of them are amazed that my rabbits live in the house and also get playtimes outside...just like a pet.

Peg

The last owner said she had no health problems? Some rabbits do have chronic seizures- I know EEEM's Harold had them.

Maybe this canhelp:http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_seizure_disorder.html

[size="-1"]Seizures may be caused by situations within the brain (such as trauma or infection) or by situations centered outside the brain(such as low blood sugar, circulating metabolic toxins, or external poisons). The first step is to rule out situations centered outside the brain, easily done with a blood test. An ophthalmic exam may also be performed as the retina may show signs of a brain infection. If these tests are negative, the next step is determined by the age of the pet.[/size]

[size="-1"]ANIMALS LESS THAN AGE ONE YEAR - seizures are usually caused by infections of the brain. Analysis of cerebro-spinal fluid,obtained by a tap under anesthesia, would be important.[/size]

[size="-1"]ANIMALS BETWEEN AGES 1 AND 5 - In these animals, usually no cause can be found and the term "epilepsy," which simply means "seizure disorder," is applied. If seizures are occurring frequently enough, medication is used to suppress them. Schnauzers, Basset hounds,Collies, and Cocker spaniels have 2-3 times as much epilepsy as other breeds.[/size]

[size="-1"]ANIMALS MORE THAN AGE FIVE YEARS - In this group, seizure sare usually caused by a tumor growing off the skull and pressing on the brain (a "meningioma"). Most such tumors are operable if found early. A CAT scan or MRI would be the next step. Special referral is necessary for this type of imaging. For patients where surgery is not an option, corticosteroids may be used to reduce swelling in the brain. Treatment to suppress seizures may also be needed (see below).[/size]

[size="-1"]Epilepsy is the name given to seizure disorders for which no cause can be found. It is not a unique disease in and of itself.[/size]

Are you going to have a necropsy done? Were any done on the other lionheads that had seizures? If it's from a brain abnormality/cancer that is inheritable, it would explain the numbers. Although since I don't know the size of the lionhead populationor the rate of seizures in other breeds, I don't know how significant 40 is.

I'm so sorry. You had her for such a short time! :bigtears:

naturestee wrote:

The last owner said she had no health problems?Some rabbits do have chronic seizures- I know EEEM's Harold had them.

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Naturestee,the seizure too me sounds more likeatypical end-stage reaction,possibly unrelated to thecause. It seems thatbunnies more often than not will have seizures as they aredying. The initial stillness and front leg paralysis may better indicate the possible problem, althoughthat too could just have been more of the same.I'm having trouble finding much info re: the latter. If you run across anything as you use your considerable research skills, I'd be very interested.Too late for poor little Waterlily, but might help another bunny in the house.

SASand PIPP

I can't sleep so I'm up again for a few minutes...giving everybunny some hay and double checking them.

From my understanding - she had not had any seizures before and she didn't have any when she first came here. We have buried her and I can't bring myself to dig her up or have Art dig her up....I know I probably should but....I just don't think we can. I can'tafford a necropsy or we wouldn't have buried her right away...but finances are just way too tight right now.

I've totally disinfected her cage and no one is in it (in case it was contagious)....but right now - everybody seems fine.

I had another breeder tell me that I need to stop loving my bunnies too much and be more "professional" about this....to look at my rabbits as breeders and not pets. But how do you do that? Each one has its own personality and needs. Some of my gals like to be near others - while other ones like to be alone more often. Some of them Love hay - others think hay is ok...but they'd rather have a pet. Some like craisins - others think I'm crazy for handing them out. Some gals want to be either pregnant or have babies with them....others don't care.

In other words - they are all unique....and since Art & I have an empty nest now - they are all my "children".

Anyway - I'm glad I was holding her when she passed. I really believe she knew I loved her - because she looked me in the eye right before she took her last breath and had her last seizure.

As I type this and bawl my eyes out - I have a lionhead staring at me. She is trying to figure out if I'm ok or if she should try to jump the barricade and come see me...at least that is what it looks like.

Thanks to those who have looked up information. If I hear more from other breeders, I will let you know. But this just appeared to come out of the blue - the seizures just lasted half an hour or so and she was gone.

TinysMom wrote:

I had another breeder tell me that I need to stop loving my bunnies too much and be more "professional" about this....to look at my rabbits as breeders and not pets. But how do you do that? Each one has its own personality and needs.Some of my gals like to be near others - while other ones like to be alone more often. Some of them Love hay - others think hay is ok...but they'd rather have a pet. Some like craisins -others think I'm crazy for handing them out. Some gals want to be either pregnant or have babies with them....others don't care.

In other words - they are all unique....and since Art & I have an empty nest now - they are all my"children".

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This is why I've always respected you.I have trouble justifying the practices of many rabbit breeders who seem to breed more because they like playing with genetics then because they like the rabbits themselves. But you started this because you liked the rabbits. I think it makes you a much better breeder- both because the babies are more socialized and because since you actually know your rabbits you can tell when one is feeling off. I'm sure nobody's told someone who breeds dogs as a hobby that they shouldn't care for their breeding dogs like pets.

This went way off, it's just my thoughts.

Thanks for the comments - they mean a lot to me.

There are times when I get discouraged. I hear the"professional" breeders talking about doing what is best for the breed and being loyal to the breed. Many times this includes things I can't bring myself to do...like putting a rabbit down due to wrong eye color or because it isn't what I'm looking for in a rabbit. But my kids remind me...my loyalty isn't to the"breed" at all - it is to each individual bunny that enters my home.

But that is just me.....and Art and the way we are.

Peg

naturestee wrote:

TinysMom wrote:

I had another breeder tell me that I need to stop loving my bunnies too much and be more "professional" about this....

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This went way off, it's just my thoughts.

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Ditto. I believe having a genuine care and concern for every rabbit in your rabbitry makes you a more responsible breeder than the ones who see their rabbits as objects without a soul.

I am so sorry about your loss. It is so terribly difficult to hold a rabbit who appears to be suffering and feeling helpless. Theodore was having seizures and I thought there was nothing I could do other than try to calm him down so hecould pass peacefully. He wouldn't let go and some divine guidance led him and I through it, but while I was holding him I had come to terms with losing him... I am going to feel the pain of Theodore leaving for the second time when he does eventually pass on (many many many years from now ray

I am there with you - Sometimes I think that some creatures are SO special that the Lord wants them with Him more than He wants them to be with us...:bunnyangel:

Peg, I'm so sorry for your loss...afraid I don't have much to offer in the way of suggestions, but thought you could use a comforting cyber-hug. And I also wanted to comment on something you wrote:

I had another breeder tell me that I need to stop loving my bunnies too much and be more "professional" about this....to look at my rabbits as breeders and not pets.

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When I raised Polish, I certainly didn't have a big rabbitry...around10-15 rabbits at any given time. And every one of them were my babies.When something happened to one, I was so grief-stricken. And I too had other breeders tell me that I needed to be more 'professional'; that if I was going to be in the business of raising and showing rabbits I couldn't look at them as pets. Well, for me that was just impossible.If I had two rabbits or two hundred, each would have been just as precious as the next.

It was simply my nature. And I also discovered that not every person who claimed to be 'professional' and not affected by their animals was disclosing the exact truth. My (then)husband and I were in PEI one year showing my rabbits, and we were visiting the farm of one of the local breeders...he raised Cals and NZWhites, and did his own 'culling' when it came time to use some of them for meat (he and his wife used them as a food source as well). I asked him how he managed to do it...after all, I had seen him petting the rabbits and sneaking them treats when he thought we weren't looking. He looked at me and said, "I've always maintained that these rabbits are just that...rabbits. They aren't pets and I don't get attached. It doesn't bother me at all."

Well, when he went back out to the barn, as we sat talking to his wife she said, "Don't believe a word he told you. When it comes time and he has to actually kill one, he stays out there for hours...and when he does come back in the house he's wiping his eyes and trying to hide the fact that he was crying. He's affected by them....he cares about all of them, but he would never admit it openly."

So I learned that sometimes, even the most hardhearted-sounding of breeders do feel something for their charges. And it is also true,there are some who simply have such huge hearts that every animal who crosses their path affects them...and some affect those huge hearts so deeply that they never leave. Compassion and love for an animal is such a special gift; a gift with which you have been blessed. So yes, it will be painful when you lose one, especially when it is one of those special heart-bunnies...but the pain is only there to tell you just how deeply you can love.

I'm so sorry for your loss....

~Di

Bassetluv, you put that so beautifully. What a touching story.

Peg, I am so sorry. Could she have got to eat something she shouldn't? With the seizure being so quick, it sounds like something toxic. How very sad

Jan

Bassetluv wrote:

And it is also true, there are some who simply have such huge hearts that every animal who crosses their path affects them...and some affect those huge hearts so deeply that they never leave. Compassion and love for an animal is such a special gift; a gift with which you have been blessed. So yes, it will be painful when you lose one, especially when it is one of those special heart-bunnies...but the pain is only there to tell you just how deeply you can love.

I'm so sorry for your loss....

~Di

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Thank you for these comments - they mean so much to me.

I am very tender-hearted towards my animals. I am keeping two babies that have each gone blind in one eye - and I have two others that have teeth problems (I no longer breed their parents). I brought these babies into the world and I feel responsible to take care of them. In the case of my partially blind babies....everytime I pick them up to treat them (morning and night), they snuggle into my hand and seem to know that I love them. They just lay there while I wipe out their eyes and put ointment on them.....and then they know that they will get some loving or a treat orsomething.... It is so funny because one is blind on one side and the other one is blind on the other side. I need to check to see what sex they are (I don't remember right off) because I may just bond them and let them share a cage....they're from different liters but they're used to being together a lot. I have a feeling that they are going to stay small and at times I wonder if they were peanuts. One isn't growing as well as the other.....I'm just praying that they both live.

Peg

LuvaBun wrote:

Peg, I am so sorry. Could she have got to eat something she shouldn't? With the seizure being so quick, it sounds like something toxic. How very sad

Jan

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We've looked to see if there are any leaves or something in the exercise pen that seem different....and we didn't see anything. We really wonder if maybe she was sick because when I brought her in - I was thinking she was thin and she hadn't eaten all her food the night before....

This morning I didn't want to let Tiny go outside at all.....I cried and cried. However, Art finally let him out this afternoon and said that he needed his exercise and was totally miserable and that Tiny was perfectly healthy and I couldn't keep him inside forever as he'd be miserable. I told Tiny that getting dad to gang up with him wasn't fair!

There are many things that could have caused it - and I think I've decided that I'm just not going to know for sure. All I can do is know I loved her dearly and did everything for her that I could do.

She had been through a lot of stress in her life. She was born in 11/04 and since then she lived in Wa. state; Corpus Christi,TX;Tennessee; back to Corpus; San Antonio, TX and now here.During that time she'd been with 4 different breeders before me....

Peg

I am talking with other breeders about this and when someone who has tracked the seizure information gets back online later this week - I'm going to contact her and check out the bloodlines to see if we can track it through her pedigree.

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[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]The stories are varied but all fit the framework of Idiopathic Epilepsy. A young Lionhead has his first seizure when 8 weeks old at weaning. One doe seized when she was placed with a buck for breeding. I also just had a nice buck have a horrible seizure after a servicing a doe. (He had successfully been used before). Another young Lionhead (about 5 months old) had it's first seizure when being groomed for a show.[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Most often owners simply say they were in the rabbitry doing chores when suddenly the Lionhead was thrashing in it's cage. The rabbits all recover and are able to resume normal activity. Nothing in any of the reports would make me think of poisoning or injury. (Some breeders think this is wry neck - it is not. WRY NECK DOES NOT COME ON SUDDENLY LAST MINUTES AND CLEAR UP)[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]The susceptibility for generating an epileptic seizure varies within the individual. Some may have a lower threshold for epileptic seizures and are therefore more likely to develop this condition. Though this a genetic condition it can take time to manifest. Often seizures are be triggered by external stimulation.[/font]


[align=center][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]TREATMENT[/font][/align]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]There is no true cure as this condition is genetically encoded in the rabbit's makeup. We can offer support. Since over all seizures are uncommon in rabbits, it can be difficult to find extensive information on treatment or a Veterinarian who has the knowledge to help a rabbit owner deal wit this problem. [/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]If you find yourself with a Lionhead pet who has seizures there are some things the owner can so. Control of the environment can be important as often bright light and over handling will induce a seizure. Seizures can be triggered by external stimulation. [/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]If you find yourself confronted by a Lionhead who is having a seizure, often simply placing the rabbit in a SMALL cage enclosure that is dark, cool and quiet is all that is needed. Remember it is always wise to contact your veterinary for support and information. [/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]If the seizure should last for any length of time it is important to get veterinary help at RIGHT AWAY. The act of seizing can raise the body temperature to dangerous levels. Remember when handling a seizing Lionhead they no longer have any idea of where they are or who you are. Support of the back is very important if you must lift the rabbit to move it to a safe place. [/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]If you do find yourself with an Epileptic Lionhead this information may be of help to your veterinarian. To stop seizures, diazepam (1-2 mg/kg IV, IM) or midazolam (1-2 mg/kg IV, IM) should be given immediately.
[/font]


[align=center][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]WE MUST NOT HIDE THE PROBLEM.
This breed is very young and we can beat this thing if we all work together. Let potential buyers know. If a prospective buyer should decide the breed is what they want that should be fine with all of us. We love our breed and we are willing to tackle and solve this problem, but not everyone else is. People who are buying Lionheads need to know. They need to be aware that this is a potential problem so they will be prepared if it should happen to their Lionhead. [/font][/align]

Thanks Huntress. I did know about this (I'd forgotten about it at the time). I was hesitant to post it once I remembered it because I didn't want folks panicking over their lionheads as there have been a limited number of cases (I know of something like 40 documented cases if I remember right).

Anyway - for those who have lionheads -one of us should probably go ahead and post it in the lionheadthread somewhere. I may do that later - right now I have a situation here with one of my babies...

Peg

there have been a limited number of cases (I know of something like 40 documented cases if I remember right).

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yes but that is just the ones that particular person knows about. Not everyone contacts them to be put on their list! I had one that was not put in their database... how many others were not in there? And yes mine was out of import bred stock, might have been related to the site owners older stock...

Just wanted to post that so others would be aware it is documented in Lionheads, not meant to scare anyone.