Super-loud, gushy-feeling gut...Now what?

[Jenk]

Age: approximately 2 years.

Breed: Californian.

Diet: unlimited timothy hay; 3-4 Tbsp. Oxbow BB/T pellets; some greens (Italian parsley, curly parsley and Romaine).

For the umpteenth time, our boy showed signs of gut pain; I gave him three dosesof Simethicone and one of Metacam by time time I went to bed (12:30 am).

I also massaged his intestinal region before bed andfelt some gas break up. I also felt a lump-like thing that moved with my fingers; I'm uncertain if it's a large gas bubble or ingesta material (or fur?). And his gut felt "gushy" (not having the normal feel of resistence), and I could hear water sloshing at times as I massaged him.

This morning, he's acting chipper.I can't tell how much hay he ate overnight, but he didpass a few fecals overnight, but they're not normal (they're slightly small, a bit dark, and one is cone-shaped).

Assuming that he will eat a good amount of hay, is that all that I should feed him for maybe 2-3 days? He wants his pellets this morning, but I'm concerned about possibly making things worse.

Thank you,

Jenk

 

[Pipp]

Does the hay and water restriction usually help? I only use it for a cecal dysbiosis or 'poopy butt' event. It will suck hydration out of the gut, although they drink a lot to compensate.

If my guys are molting and/or have small or misshapen poops, I usually try canned pumpkin and a probiotic.

Gas? It depends on what caused it, and honestly from what I've been reading, it could be the hay, pellets, parsley or a combination of two or more of the above, you name it. I was just reading a post from somebody who thought canned pumpkin gave both her bunnies gas.

That got me researching about the bacteria and viruses attached to plants, and yikes! The world is a dangerous place! Soil alone carries tons.

Does he love his hay and eat lot of it? In some cases the recent anti-pellet trend goes too far. Sometimes the answer is more pellets, not fewer. Rabbits need fiber, yes, but also a lot of nutrients that hay alone isn't going to provide unless they're also getting a ton of other vegetation. Variety is still the best bet.


sas :clover:

 

[Jenk]

Hey, Pipp.

This morning, he's acting chipper and eating his hay. I encouraged him to move a lot when he was out (and will do the same during his extended out-time tonight).

Pipp wrote:

Does the hay and water restriction usually help? I only use it for a cecal dysbiosis or 'poopy butt' event. It will suck hydration out of the gut, although they drink a lot to compensate.

He had gut issues within the first few months' that we got him; soI did do the hay-only diet for a brief period. Typically, I've not altered his diet after an ileus bout. If anything, I decrease his pellets and greens a little bit for about 2-3 days'.

I think that I will give him his pellets this morning after all.

Gas? It depends on what caused it, and honestly from what I've been reading, it could be the hay, pellets, parsley or a combination of two or more of the above, you name it. I was just reading a post from somebody who thought canned pumpkin gave both her bunnies gas.

It's true that it could be anything causing him issues. His gut boutshave always struck in the evening, so I'm leaning more toward greens as being the likely cause. Still, that's not to say that pellets couldn't also be a contribution.

A while back, I fed him less greens; it seemed like hisgut problems weren't nearly as frequent. So I'm thinking of reducing his intake to see what happens. Since he's a purebred Cali, he was likely raised by a breeder--which means that his parents likely ate pellets and hay--and no greens. I wonder if his digestive system isn't cut out for the "recommended" amount of greens.

That got me researching about the bacteria and viruses attached to plants, and yikes! The world is a dangerous place! Soil alone carries tons.

:shock: I really shouldn't be surprised.

Does he love his hay and eat lot of it? In some cases the recent anti-pellet trend goes too far. Sometimes the answer is more pellets, not fewer. Rabbits need fiber, yes, but also a lot of nutrients that hay alone isn't going to provide unless they're also getting a ton of other vegetation. Variety is still the best bet.

He's been eating a bit less hay for a few weeks but is stillingesting agood amount.

I don't want to restrict his pellets too much. I've found that 4 Tbsp./day keeps him at his ideal weight and encourages him to still eat a good amount of hay. It's when he eats a lot of greens that he seems to eat even less hay and pass dark, shiny fecals. So maybe it's again time to start feeding greens as more of a treat than as a vital part of his diet.

Jenk

 

[Pipp]

Dark shiny fecals are naturally going to be the normal end product from veggies. Big fluffy light ones are the norm with hay. Both (and all points between) are healthy.

ETA: And eating more veggies will reduce hay consumption, but the veggies are still providing the needed roughage and tooth wear, so it's a good 'full'. Not a 'junk food starch and fat' full.

But if greens give him gas and you can't narrow it down to any one particular green, I agree, don't force the issue. Just make sure you increase the pellets if he gets fewer greens, although not enough so to cut the hay consumption.

But you seem to know the balances.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

But you seem to know the balances.

Are you sure 'bout that? To date,all three of bunners have been having cyclicaldigestive issues. (Our girls'problems are likely a combo. of genetic flaws, food intolerances,and spay-surgery adhesions. :shock

I feel like either my bunnies and I are cursed in terms of their repetitive digestive issues, or I've yet to discover the exact science to each of their dietary needs/tolerances.

 

[tonyshuman]

It might be time to eliminate the veggies altogether. I have been feeding the "house rabbit diet"--limited pellets, lotsa hay, and lotsa veggies--since I got Tony 3 years ago. The shelter bunnies get a similar diet but veggies only as a treat, and they all seem to do very well. Randy and angieluv also feed a diet with mostly hay, limited pellets, and veggies only as a treat, and it works well for them, not to mention it's less expensive. I would like to move to this kind of diet, but my guys get so excited for their veggies that I just can't. I tried to cut back without luck--I just felt guilty when they'd finish the smaller veggie portion and look up at me with those sad eyes.

Anyway, back to his issues. I think a hay, pellets, and water diet is totally fine. That may be what he needs. If hay is a large percentage of his intake, then his gut should be less sensitive to small changes (ie parsley on monday, romaine on tuesday). That's all I can think of as a solution. Sometimes bunnies get gas too--just like how sometimes people get it without any real reason. I personally get gas pains at a certain time of the month. Now rabbits don't have those hormonal issues, especially all your fixed guys, but there are many things that can cause a bit of gas.

 

[Pipp]

tonyshuman wrote:

It might be time to eliminate the veggies altogether. I have been feeding the "house rabbit diet"--limited pellets, lotsa hay, and lotsa veggies--since I got Tony 3 years ago. The shelter bunnies get a similar diet but veggies only as a treat, and they all seem to do very well. Randy and angieluv also feed a diet with mostly hay, limited pellets, and veggies only as a treat, and it works well for them, not to mention it's less expensive. I would like to move to this kind of diet, but my guys get so excited for their veggies that I just can't. I tried to cut back without luck--I just felt guilty when they'd finish the smaller veggie portion and look up at me with those sad eyes.

Anyway, back to his issues. I think a hay, pellets, and water diet is totally fine. That may be what he needs. If hay is a large percentage of his intake, then his gut should be less sensitive to small changes (ie parsley on monday, romaine on tuesday). That's all I can think of as a solution. Sometimes bunnies get gas too--just like how sometimes people get it without any real reason. I personally get gas pains at a certain time of the month. Now rabbits don't have those hormonal issues, especially all your fixed guys, but there are many things that can cause a bit of gas.

I agree with most of this, except the key is variety in terms of nutrients. And I think the HRS is going down a slippery slope when they tell people to only feed a few teaspoons of pellets because it's highly unlikely the average pet owner (not so much the veterans or people on this forum) can or will provide them with enough hay.

In terms of enrichment and nutrition, rabbits need stupid amounts of hay and a variety at that, and most don't realize how much it really takes. Best to keep lots of veggies in the equation or make it clear that restricting pellets to small amounts is not a good idea for rabbits not receiving vegetables or a ton of fresh baled hay.

The HRS has also scared a lot of people away from giving their rabbits seeds, fruit, oats and even carrot. Bottom line? Poor bunnies!

We may have a whole generation of bunny owners unknowingly starving their rabbits -- not to any overt level, but enough to make those rabbits' lives a bit shorter and a lot less interesting.

And vegetables are NOT expensive, four out of five produce stores in my area will give you carrot tops and beet greens, seeing as they're cut off for the customer at the checkout. Anybody who eats cauliflower or lettuce will have leftover cores. Anybody eating kale or chard will have stems.

If I wasn't feeding my guys lots of veggies (I get massive amounts from my produce store's compost bins), I'd be going after edible flowers, vines, trees, various grasses, etc.

Shelter bunnies have to get limited food, its like comparing an orphanage with Madonna's mansion. You can't always get what you want. Sorry bunnies!

My guys eat 10 times more hay than veggies but they still get a lot of veggies thanks to Pipp, the dwarf non-hay eater. The rest of the guys are getting the benefits of her mega-veggie collection.

The downside is that every once in awhile there will be a hidden black spot in a head of broccoli or a rotted leaf on a carrot top or piece of cilantro, and because they eat everything on their plates (except Pipp of course), they will ingest bad stuff and occasionally it will give them gas.

And there will be bunnies with 'sensitivities'.

But generally speaking, 'vegetation' (plants - hay, grass, vegetables, herbs, vines, flowers, trees, pellets, whatever) should be fed to rabbits in copious amounts and varieties. However that's split up is up to the bunny and the slave.

As for the topic at hand, if a lot of the 'problems' perceived are things like the dark and compact poops and 'moving lumps', I don't think the rabbits are as sick much or as often as Jenk thinks they are. (I can relate after panicking about Pipp's bulging eye only to realize the other one was bulging to exactly the same degree, being concerned that she was lethargic when she was trying to sleep, and thinking she wasn't pooping when it had only been four hours).

That said, they all have been sick so its a good idea to look everywhere in the environment from wood to household cleaners to even tracking the 'problem veggies' (or hay) to one produce store. Has anybunny been checked for worms? (They're also hard to see in a fecal test). Is the litter safe?

Have you been keeping a journal?


sas onder:

 

[Jenk]

tonyshuman wrote:

It might be time to eliminate the veggies altogether.

I think a hay, pellets, and water diet is totally fine. That may be what he needs. If hay is a large percentage of his intake, then his gut should be less sensitive to small changes (ie parsley on monday, romaine on tuesday). That's all I can think of as a solution.

I'm nervous about feeding him greens tonight. What's confusing is that he seemed to tolerate a gradual increase of parsley and Romaine. Then again, he's been having major gut bouts too frequently for my nerves. Perhaps his body slowly builds up gas from the greens and, then, *WHAM!* there's a major gas bubble causing him pain.

Did I mention that I feed him greens between 7:30 pm - 8 pm and that all of his gut-pain symptoms have occurred between 9 pm and 11:30 pm?Again, it's confusing, though, that he's not having issues every night.

:?

Sometimes bunnies get gas too--just like how sometimes people get it without any real reason....There are many things that can cause a bit of gas.

He's getting them about every 5-7 weeks. (Previous fecal floats haven't revealed any parisitic issues.)

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

I think the HRS is going down a slippery slope when they tell people to only feed a few teaspoons of pellets because it's highly unlikely the average pet owner (not so much the veterans or people on this forum) can or will provide them with enough hay.

In terms of enrichment and nutrition, rabbits need stupid amounts of hay and a variety at that, and most don't realize how much it really takes. Best to keep lots of veggies in the equation or make it clear that restricting pellets to small amounts is not a good idea for rabbits not receiving vegetables or a ton of fresh baled hay.

After all that we've experienced with our buns' digestive issues, my current theory is this: feed what works for everyone, both the rabbits and the humans.

My one girl gets diarrhea if she eats 2 tsp. of pellets. For this reason, she gets mostly hay, 1-1.5 tsp. of pellets, and a tiny amount of parsley. (All other greens I've tried have given her gas; and the stress that we've gone through each timejust isn't worth it anymore.)

I have a cat who gets a UTI if he eats regular dry food; and his stomach can't handle canned food--even the stuff that contains zero fish and grains. (He also rejects most canned food.) So we feed him the one thing that his system can tolerate: a vet-prescribed diet that's actually high in sodium. But it works for everyone, cat and humans.

We may have a whole generation of bunny owners unknowingly starving their rabbits -- not to any overt level, but enough to make those rabbits' lives a bit shorter and a lot less interesting.

I stress a lot about the fact that our girls can't handle much of anything in "normal" amounts: greens or pellets. But all three of our crew get a ton of hay.

And there will be bunnies with 'sensitivities'.

See above.

...If a lot of the 'problems' perceived are things like the dark and compact poops and 'moving lumps', I don't think the rabbits are as sick much or as often as Jenk thinks they are.

I don't misperceive the symptoms of our boy's gut discomfort, which are always the same: gut pressed to the floor; frequent shifting of position; lethargy; disinterest in fresh hay as soon as it's set out.

That said, they all have been sick so its a good idea to look everywhere in the environment from wood to household cleaners to even tracking the 'problem veggies' (or hay) to one produce store. Has anybunny been checked for worms? (They're also hard to see in a fecal test). Is the litter safe?

Tests have revealed little-to-nothing. (Our two girls were found to have Helicobacter pylori, which I suspect they contracted from either their breeder or the pet store from which we got them.)

That's my beef with fecal tests: they've not revealed any parasitic problem. And what's the point of retesting over and over again, if nothing's found and vets won't treat unless they find something? (In other words, we grew tired of paying for tests that revealed squat. )

Have you been keeping a journal?

For longer than I'd like....

 

[slp98]

Maybe your rabbit should be looked at by a vet?:inlove:



:bunny19

 

[Amy27]

Pipp wrote:

As for the topic at hand, if a lot of the 'problems' perceived are things like the dark and compact poops and 'moving lumps', I don't think the rabbits are as sick much or as often as Jenk thinks they are. (I can relate after panicking about Pipp's bulging eye only to realize the other one was bulging to exactly the same degree, being concerned that she was lethargic when she was trying to sleep, and thinking she wasn't pooping when it had only been four hours).



sas onder:

You thinking Pipp was lethargic when she was trying to sleep made me laugh out loud. But I laugh because I can so relate. I am always watching Chase urinate and if she moves too much I freak or if she lays funny. It is so hard to know because rabbits hide illnesses, if you miss something they could get really sick. If they could only talk to us and tell us what is going on this would all be so much easier!!!!

Jenk, I don't have any suggestion but I am thinking about you and your buns and I hope you find something that works for all of you.

 

[Jenk]

slp98 wrote:

Maybe your rabbit should be looked at by a vet?

He's been to the vet many times for such a young bun. He's had fecal floats, fecal cultures, blood work, and x-rays--depending on the symptoms present.

In my previous response,I note that all signs point to an intolerance of a certain amount of greens. In the past, when I fed him much less greens, he didn't have these frequent gas/pain episodes; so I'm going to scale back his amount to what I used to feed and see what happens.

 

[Jenk]

Amy27 wrote:

It is so hard to know because rabbits hide illnesses, if you miss something they could get really sick. If they could only talk to us and tell us what is going on this would all be so much easier!!!!

You're so right about that. I watch my crew very closely, and they've still managed to foil me at times. Our one girl ate/drank/peed/pooped/behaved normally right up until the moment that she was pressing her gut to the floor and shifting around in pain. She even peed on herself during that particular episode, which scared me to death!

Jenk, I don't have any suggestion but I am thinking about you and your buns and I hope you find something that works for all of you.

Thank you, Amy. I very much appreciate the positive thoughts. :hug:

At this point, I'm going to decrease the amount of greens that I feed my boy and see what happens. Hopefully, he willhave no (or at least decreased) gas episodes, eat more hay, and pass "things" along with flying colors.

 

[slp98]

okJenk wrote:

slp98 wrote:

Maybe your rabbit should be looked at by a vet?

He's been to the vet many times for such a young bun. He's had fecal floats, fecal cultures, blood work, and x-rays--depending on the symptoms present.

In my previous response,I note that all signs point to an intolerance of a certain amount of greens. In the past, when I fed him much less greens, he didn't have these frequent gas/pain episodes; so I'm going to scale back his amount to what I used to feed and see what happens.

ok :tears2: