Stasis for a month

[Nummy]

Hello everyone :wave:My Rabbit's name is Nummy, He is a rescued dutch/fancy rabbit. His age is unknown but we guess him around 6-8 years old. He is unneutered (he came to me like this) He lives without a mate so I left him unneutered. He was never fed timothy hay as a baby, so now he does not eat it at all. I do give it to him though. He has bad teeth, and he has had dental surgery already which was done on Jan 5th. Nummy also is prone to bouts of stasis. It can last from 1 week to 1 month.

Now for our current state. After his dental surgery, Nummy wasn't eating his usual amount of food, but he did nibble on some fresh greens. He seemed to be making some progress for a few days but then I noticed he wasn't really peeing...onder:so we went to his emergency vet to check him out. They found nothing and sent him home with me. Later that same night Nummy was getting worse, he still hadn't peed. He had a complete blockage and I knew it. Unfortunatly he had to wait several hours like this to see the vet. He had a bladder stone right at the end of his wee wee and just couldn't pass it. Nonetheless, he didn't need surgery, but had to stay a while at the vets.:tears2:He stayed a whole 5 days, where they could feed him and get him back on his feet. They said he could come home and I was still told to syringe feed him and give him metacam for 5 days. It was now the 19th and Nummy hadn't been eating his regular diet since the 5th. He did again make some progress over the next week, even eating some pellets and then as of Thursday night, he stopped eating again.I am curious as to if it is normal for a rabbit to go through ups and downs during recovery. Is it normal that he is like this for so long? Tonight I gave him some metacam because he is still not really eating. After the pain med kicked in he ate a little bit. How can I get him to come around?? Any advice is welcome

 

[Pipp]

We're looking at two different issues here. If he's not peeing because of stones, that's #1. He was probably in the hospital that long because he was receiving fluids to flush out the stones, right? When was he last x-rayed?

The Metacam HAS to be given only when he's been drinking and I think peeing (although not sure about that part), seeing as it decreases blood flow to the kidneys and can actually be a cause of a bunny not being able to pee. This combined with the fact he's prone to stones (which are painful) makes it particularly important that he gets an infusion of fluids. Did the vet show you how to do this at home? You need to keep the stones at bay.

The failure to eat is likely directly related to the pain. You don't want to mask the pain, you want to get rid of it.

The teeth are a different issue. Did he have molar spurs? If he's been eating mostly syringed and/or soft foods like pellets, nothing is wearing down his spurs so they may well be back.

I think the trick here is going to be diet and Subcutaneous fluids administered at home.

You want him eating hay, and if he won't eat hay, try grass. My dwarf won'to eat hay at all, so I control her spurs by feeding her a huge variety of veggies including hard and chewy ones like carrot tops, kale, etc.

Its a bit of a myth that calcium causes urinary stones or even makes them worse, I'd only avoid ones like mustard greens that are very high in calcium and not really try and avoid much else.

Soak the veggies in water before you give them too him, and keep trying to entice him to eat them.

You can also put down an extra crock of water with a little cranberry juice in it. It may make him drink more and help ward off bladder infections, which he may be prone to with the stones.

So... Best diet if you can get him eating it is a ton of varied veggies (as much variety as possible), a small amount of pellets and some grass or hay.

You want him getting a lot of fluids. He can have pain meds after he has fluids and food.

And you want to keep watching for spurs and stones. If he tries to eat veggies but picks them up and drops them, or seems hungry but loses interest quickly, it could be his teeth.

If he's more lethargic after he pees or he has trouble peeing or there's any sign of blood (reddish 'veins' or bits) or white sludge in his pee, you're looking at more urinary problems.

The Vet is going to have to keep a close eye on both issues.


sas :clover:

 

[Nummy]

He is peeing like normal, and he was in the hospital to get his bladderflushed for a few days. The xray was done before he was sent home and the vet said he was all clear. I think his stone was caused from his pellets which contain alphalfa meal. I have tried to get him to eat timothy hay pellets but he refuses. He loves fresh grass though. Since his last stone issue, he seems to have no trouble peeing and it looks of normal color and is not cloudy, pastey or bloody at all. I don't know what the infusion fluids are... but the vet just instructed me to give him critical care and metacam for 5 days.

As for his teeth, well he did have spurs, he also had a root growing into his sinuses too. He did just have his teeth done though so I am not sure if it is his teeth that are a bother. He usually sees the vet (The Links Road Animal Clinic) Every 2-3 months. The vet says he has rotten teeth. Right now he is on a diet of critical care feedings and all the fresh veggies he can handle. The problem is trying to get him to eat on his own without syringe feedings. He is willing to eat a few veggies off and on but sometimes just when I think the worst is behind us he stops eating again. I have been making sure his water intake is enough, and the amount of pee seems normal. I watched him eat a hard carrot stick with no troubles, so I really don't know what is keeping him from getting over this.

 

[Pipp]

Ups and downs are common in terms of regulating his GI tract, when a rabbit has 'stasis' issues, yes.

When a bunny stops eating, its most likely pain-related. Whether the pain is from the GI issues (usually the gas that comes with it), the teeth or the urinary tract is the question.

Sounds like you can rule out the urinary tract.

If its GI-related gas, he may look uncomfortable, shift around a bit, press his tummy to the floor and/or just be a 'bunny loaf'. When he looks uncomfortable, try some Simethicone and tummy rubs. If he feels better right after the treatment, that could be the culprit. But the gas will reform soon after, it takes awhile to regulate.

Molar spurs can come back quickly. If my spur-challenged bunny goes off her diet even for a couple of days, they pop back up. It can be very hard getting her back on track without the spurs ground down by the Vet. Sometimes I can do it with diet, sometimes not. But Metacam usually makes her more inclined to eat and that will wear down the spurs.

What did they do about his rotten tooth/elongated tooth root?

Is he chewing oddly? Moving his mouth around when he's not eating? Drooling at all? Showing initial interest in food but loosing interest after he picks it up? You have to watch for the subtle signs.

From experience, its odd what bunnies with dental issues will and will not eat. Some will just try harder to eat a carrot than a piece of hay, they just put up with the discomfort. And different foods require different chewing, so some things may be easier to eat than others, 'hard' or not.

The tooth root could be causing pain or it could be spurs that are uncomfortable, or cutting into his cheek or tongue.

Re: pellets, its tough because you want him hungry enough to eat the stuff that will help him teeth (the veggies) so normally you reduce the pellets, but you also want him eating anything he'll eat. (But really try to push the veggies and grass and keep him on Metacam).

Pipp refused the timothy pellets, too. What worked for me was that I mixed timothy in with alfalfa and slowly reduced the alfalfa until she was just eating the timothy. I think I started with three or four kinds of pellets and whittled it down to one.


sas :clover:

 

[tamsin]

How much grass is he eating when he's eating normally? Hay is basically a convenient replacement for grass so if he eats as much grass as another rabbit would hay then it will help prevent the issues associated with not eating hay (tooth issues, stasis, too many pellets causing gut imbalances).

Pain can also causes stasis so you get a bit of a vicious cycle where pain causes stasis, he stops eating right which effects his teeth etc. it can be hard to get everything back into balance.

 

[Nummy]

Sometimes he does look unconfortable. He lays like a "bunny loaf" lol. He also presses his tummy to the floor too. I did buy him some orval for babies, but I am not sure how much to give him. The vet said they did not use that product but they know it can be used. I gave him some over the last few days but only gave him 0.15ML every 24hrs.I don't know if that is too much or too little for him. He probably weighs around 3-4lbs.

The elongated tooth was removed from the sinuses somehow, it was causing Nummy to sneeze constantly and have a runny nose aswell. I believe the vet said they pulled out 2 rotten teeth and the elongated tooth aswell. He does move his mouth around when he is not eating at times, and he sometimes loses interest after picking up some food. He is drool free though, and seems to eat just fine when he feels interested. Maybe the vet missed a tooth?? He just had his teeth done on the 5th of January. He sometimes clicks his teeth too and I have know idea what that is about...maybe trying to file his teeth? Does it sound like a spur is back to you?

He is on pain meds tonight, I am gonna have to call the vet and ask about the teeth just in case. I hate taking Nummy in though as it seems to make him more stressed out. He is eating willingly tonight though. After I gave him some pain meds he seemed to pick up a bit. He has been eating his carrot sticks and some spinich and a few pellets. As soon as he stopes eating for longer that 4-5 hours on his own I syringe feed him again.

I did try to mix timothy hay pellets with his alphalfa pellets and he ate around the timothy hay pellets lol. He left the other pellets and refused to eat them even when he was hungry. So far I have tried 2 different kinds. How long did you keep trying to mix the pellets for? And if your rabbit wouldn't eat it would you give in and give the other pellet or just substitute with greens?

 

[tonyshuman]

I don't know a lot about the tooth issues. The extraction they did sounds right. I worry that he has spurs growing on the teeth back there, especially depending on which teeth were removed. If the ones opposite to the ones that were removed were not also removed, they will grow out of control. Spurs can also grow for any reason, including not eating hay.

The usual dose for simethicone is 1mL/hr for 3hrs, then back off and wait 3hrs before giving another dose. The dose isn't very exact because simethicone isn't absorbed into the body--it stays in the ingested food inside the GI tract. For that reason it's hard to overdose on it because it doesn't effect any organs because it doesn't go into the body itself.

 

[Pipp]

Yeah, that amount of Ovol isn't going to help at all. As noted, you need at least a full CC every hour for three hours, maybe four, but then none for six to eight hours.

What really helps the gas is long long tummy massages. I would sit for an hour or so with my gassy mini-rex massagin his tummy with a vibrating toothbrush, it would make him feel better. But the gas reforms for awhile so it can take up to 12 hours to get it under control.

It is all inter-related, and its a chicken-or-the-egg thing. Spurs could be causing him to not to digest his food properly and that causes gas, or just the sporadic eating causes the gas. And the gas can cause not eating, and not eating can cause the spurs.

Does the force-feeding stress him out much or does he eat it from the syringe rather willingly? I'd stretch it out so that its more like eight hours without eating. That might make him more inclined to eat his veggies and grass.

It took Pipp quite awhile before she'd eat the timothy pellets. What brand are you using? A quality alfalfa isn't that bad. The calcium content in a Martin's Less Active (timothy) is the same as their regular alfalfa (.08). The protein and fat are a little lower. Unless he's overweight, which is unlikely given his condition, the alfalfa is fine. Older bunnies actually tend to thin out and often require more protein.

ETA: Pipp will literally starve herself to death before eating hay (although she nibbles a bit with fresh handfuls and different types). But when I cut back her pellets, she eats her veggies. She gets very few pellets, maybe a couple teaspoons a day.


sas :clover:

 

[Nummy]

I guess I wasn't really helping with the gas meds then I just didn't want to have him overdose but now that has been cleared up. I didn't know he needed so much!!! The force feedings don't seem to stress him too much. He takes it willingly for the most part. I don't have to pin him down or roll him up or anything. He just lays there and allows me to feed him. If he walks away I let him go to take a break and I come back to him after a few moments. He is usually pretty good though. I don't have any grass right now, but I can get some cat grass at the Sobeys. I have offered him some timothy hay though, he just moves it around but it's a start. Nummy is on the "Martin" regular brand. I will do the switch to the less active if it is better in calcium. Nummy is a veggieaholic and is given greens freely, it never has upset his tummy having greens so far. He used to get 1/2 a cup of pellets till the vet told me only 1/4 cup. I am sure less would be even better.

 

[Nummy]

Good morning :biggrin2:

I am happy to report that Nummy's appetite has picked up a bit. Last night his mood seemed better, he was on pain medsso that may be the reason for the mood change. He ate alot of fresh greens and even ate some of his pellets... a wholesaucer full :highfive:!This morning he seems pretty good too. I saw that he did not finish all his greens, I was about to get a syringe but I got some pellets instead. I poppedit on his plate and he came running over. That is what I like to see . He took a few nibbles then ate fresh greens. I hopehe keeps improving, it has taken so long to get him to snap out of it.

 

[Maureen Las]

That is great ; what do you think turned him around ? did you give a larger dose of Ovol?

 

[Nummy]

It is very possible that is what helped him. I had been syringe feeding him too every few hours until he decided to eat on his own. I also put him on pain meds just in case. He the just started eating yesterday afternoon. This morning I thought he might have regressed, but saw he ate all the pellets he had on a plate the night before. So far he has not required to have a syringe feed today. He has been eating pellets and greens all day :biggrin2:. I will update on his progress.

 

[Nummy]

:sunshine:Good morining everybody. I thought I should post Nummy's progress so far since this stasis problem seems to keep coming back this last month.

It has been a full month since the start of Nummy's stasis. Of course this does concern me greatly as he has lost a lot of weight. I didn't sleep well last night, so everytime I woke up I would check on Nummy. He seemed like he had eaten less since bedtime. I offered him some pellets, he ate some and I went back to bed. That was around 3:30am. Then around 5:00am I was up again, he still hadn't eaten much so I offered some more and he ate a few bites, then it was back to bed. I got up for the last time at 8:30am and again checked on Nummy, he had let all his greens wilt, and didn't really touch his pellets. I put a bit of water on his pellets and mixed it up and he ate a few then wasn't into it. He did eat a few spinich leaves but nothing very impressive. I am starting to think he is going back to not wanting to eat again. This has been the way things have been for a month. It is becoming very frustrating trying to keep him interested. I hate having to force feed him but it has always helped him in the long run. I really have know idea what the cause is that is keeping him from getting better. His teeth were just done and he has had a full recovery from his bladder stone. (He did not need surgery for the stone) I don't know if I should force feed a few ml into him this morning or if I should wait and watch for a few more hours. :?

 

[Pipp]

Rabbits may forage a lot but they also have their long daily down times when they really don't do anything but sleep. Best to figure out his schedule and adapt to it if you can.

Did I mention Nutri-Cal? Older bunnies natually lose weight, Nutri-Cal is a great vitamin supplement. Its made for cats and dogs but it has really worked well re: perking up my rabbits. I'm normally leary of anything oil-based or sweet, but its really made the difference here. It gave them energy and more of an appetite.

There's a recent thread around here about how rabbits with stones and/or sludge are thought to have a mineral or vitamin deficiency, so it may help there as well.

Also, can I assume you've tried canned pumpkin? That's a nice wet fiber he may eat on his own.

He may just be slowing down because of age, or he can still be experiencing pain or discomfort somewhere. He could still have an achy mouth or pain from passing the stone. Or he be getting more bouts of gas, which is also a byproduct of his irregular eating and can lead to a loss of appetite, so its a bit chicken-or-egg. He could even have developed a sensitivity to a veggie or pellet.

In any case, try and document what he eats and how much he drinks daily and when his appetite drops.

It could be he feels better when he's hydrated. Sometimes when they don't drink as much as they should, they stop eating. Rabbits have to drink to eat. Try and put town an extra crock of water flavoured with just a little of his favourite fruit juice and see if that helps.


sas :clover:

EDITED FOR ADDITIONAL INFO, CLARITY

 

[Pipp]

PS: I'm assuming he's been on a consistant dose of pain meds?

 

[Nummy]

Nummy was given some pain meds on Monday, on Tuesday I didn't give him any because he seemed to be doing quite well. Today I gave him some just in case he is not eating because of any pain. Should I just give him pain meds consistantly for a few days and see what happens?

I have tried canned pumpkin and baby food before, but he won't eat it for some reason. He just won't eat paste foods. He is incredibly fussy at what he will eat. I try new stuff with him all the time to see what he likes though. I will have to get some of that Nutri-Cal for him. It might work for him so I am willing to give it a try.

He was just drinking from his crock and I could hear his stomach making noices. Is he hungry or is that gas noises? He has not been all hunched up today, he has been grooming and loving his teddy. Since9:00am he has not eaten anything.

As far as I can tell Nummy has his down time around 12:00pm-7:00pm. He eats still through those times usually. Of course he eats the most during the rest of the time and he usually is hungry all night after I go to bed and he eats everything I put out before I wake up in the morning. He has been leaving most of it these days. I sometimes refer to Nummy as my "little piggy" because he is always hungry.Should I wait on giving him a syringe feed?

 

[Nummy]

I gave Nummy the pain meds about 30 minutes ago, and he did eat just a moment ago. Maybe I worry too much when I see he has food hanging around under the circumstances. Should I keep him on the pain meds for a while?

 

[Pipp]

I'd keep him on the pain meds, yes. But make sure he's hydrated. He needs more fluids than normal bunnies and not be drinking enough when left on his own.

And mine didn't like pumpkin at first but they've all developed a taste for it over time and now they love it. I'd keep trying to leave some out for him, maybe he'll be the same. Sometimes I had to dry it with a paper towel and warm it up a bit for Pipp, (fussy girl). None of them like baby food, though. Just canned pumpkin.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[Nummy]

I will keep him on them for a few days then, he seems to be doing well today so far. He was begging at the food bowl when I went to see he this morning. I hope he continues to get better and keeps up with the appitite thing. Thanks to everyone who made suggestions for Nummy. So far it has been very helpful. :biggrin2: