My sick bun won't eat her meds! Help?

[Rosiesmom]

Hi everyone,

I have an older bun, Rosie,that my relative gave my daughterin late April or early May. This bun has lived in a big hutch outdoors all her life. The vet came to the houseright after we got herto examineher and noticed she had a little watery eye and said that might go away once I got her inside but if it didn't, to call her and she'd give her something to take care of it. In June I finally set up a pen in my breezeway for her next to my baby bun (Butterscotch). So I waited a while to see if her eyes would clear up. No thick discharge or anything, just a little watery and they seemed to be getting better, but then last week she seemed to not be feeling well, had loose stools for one day on Sunday, which has since resolved,but just seemed a bit lethargic, and then this morningwas scratching her ears. So today I got her in to the see the same rabbit vet, who looked in her ear and said she had an ear infection and asked me if she had been tilting her head (which she hasn't to my unexperienced knowledge)... said she was worried about Rosie's immune system and the loose stools, and then examined her teeth and said that her back teeth were very misaligned and poking out into her mouth. there was no infection in her mouth, no open sores, but she thought that her dental situation was very bad and must be painful for the bun. She said that she couldn't herselffix the back teeth, that she could refer me to a specialist an hour away who could possibly do this for $300-$500, but that it would be something that we would have to do every year for her, that it would continue to grow back, but she was mostly concerned about her immune system and the ear full of bacteria. She put her on Baytril tablets x 10 days, ear drops, and pain meds by syringe x 4 days (metacam), and said let's see if we can get this infection cleared up and that might reduce swelling and make her more comfortable. But she said "I feel like I've hit a wall here..."concerning her teethwhich I didn't know what that meant really... she seemed very dismayed and concerned. Which really has me concerned... and I'm really scared now that whatever is going on with her ear could be passed to my baby Butterscotch... since they live side by side with an exercise pen wall between them and snif at each other.

Anyway, tonight I had a terrible time getting the baytril into her. I need to give her 1/2 tablet twicea day. Knowing I might have some trial and error mistakes, I cut the tablet up in 1/4ths. I tried grinding and mashing a 1/4 in banana, she wouldn't touch it. I tried putting one in a grape (her fave treat) she licked the grape but wouldn't eat the section with the piece in it. I did get 1/4 down her inside a raisin, but then when I put another 1/4 inside another raisin, she wouldn't eat it. I was able to get the Metacam in her by holding her and my husband squirted it in the side of her mouth and she licked her lips and swallowed it down... I was thinking maybe tomorrow night I could grind it up and see if I could get it into a syringe and do the same thing... if anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know... I'm very worried about her and very concerned... I had wanted to get her spayed but the vet didn't even want to think about spaying her at this point, so that tells me this is NOT good... please keep Rosie in your prayers...

- Location (USA, Vermont)

- Description (Breed, color., weight) Lop eared white, silver, 5 lbs.

- Age unknown, I thought 3, but the vet says older

- spayed/neutered? no

- Notes on Fecal and Urinary Output
- are the bunny's poops and pees normal?soft stools all over pen 2-3 days ago
- When did they last use their litterbox? today, everything looks fine now
- Any unusual behavior? low appetite, doesn't play much, pawing at ear today

- Medical History -- has s/he been to the vet or been sick before? saw the vet today, and3 months ago when I got her

- Diet - what does your bunny eat? pelletsmainly with some hay, but prefers pellets, and likes fruit treats,usually one grape or slice ofapple
- when and what did s/he eat last? pellets this AM

- movement - any unusual movements? Is s/he hopping normally? seems normal

- are there any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach? no

- has the rabbit been outdoors? lived in an outdoor hutch until 2-3 months ago when I brought her inside

 

[Pipp]

I'd guess that your bunny's ear problems stem from a tooth root abscess but you'll need an x-ray to know for sure.

The first thing you need to do is get the vet to get her off Baytril and on to injectable penicillin. Baytril won't do the job. This needs aggressive, strong treatment.

The antibiotics alone may help, but the dental surgery under discussion confuses me. Is she talking about removing molar spurs or pulling teeth? Molar spur surgery isn't complicated and shouldn't be that expensive, but I don't know the prices in your area.

As noted, an x-ray is needed to properly determine the dental status, she may need the spurs ground down and a tooth removed.

There no danger of the other bunny catching this if it is indeed an abscess. And it really is very likely.

PS: My bunnies LOVE Metacam, they lap it up, I think its banana flavored. Maybe you have some that isn't flavored?

EDIT: sorry, it's the Baytril you're having trouble with. The vet can show you how to do injections under the skin, it's not that hard. And if she agrees that penicillin is a better bet -- and it HAS to be injected -- then at least that problem will be solved. My bunnies put up with the injections better than the oral meds.

sas ray:

 

[Rosiesmom]

I think she was talking about grinding down the spurs... she said that they use a mask to keep the rabbit anesthetized, so they have to mask, then grind, then mask, then grind... and she didn't seem to want to attempt this. There is a vet about an hour away who can do this but he was very expensive, she said about $300+ (which my husband refuses to spend as we are barely making it now...) and that it would grow back so it would be something we would need to do about once a year...

 

[Haley]

I think you need to get a second opinion on this one. Do you have a House Rabbit Society or other rabbit rescue near you who could recommend a rabbit-savvy vet? I am also concerned about the teeth issue. I think you need to have an xray done to really know what is going on here. A tooth root abscess (which would show up on an xray but not by looking in the mouth) could be the reason for the ear and eye problems. If that is the case, yes it can be expensive. However, if there is no abscess and the molars just need to be ground down, that should be fairly simple for anyone experienced with rabbits.

As for the baytril, my best bet is always putting half a pill in a raisin. If that wont work, did you try crushing it up and putting it in canned pumpkin (100% pure)? If that still doesnt work, I would ask them to compound the pills. Most vets and even some pharmacies can compound the pills into a liquid flavored like banana or other fruit. You can also get injectible baytril which can be injected or even ingested orally. It tastes horrid but is easy to mix with something like grenadine to make it taste better if you cant get the pills compounded.

I have found that even vets who treat rabbits regularly can know very little about some more complex problems (such as dental and abscesses). I would definitely try to get a second opinion on this one, or at least get some xrays of the teeth and jaw so you know what, if anything, you are dealing with.

 

[Pipp]

I agree, you need a second opinion.

My vet does molar spur surgery for $125, although the first appointment included an exam fee as well.

But if you'll have trouble paying $300, your bunny is in trouble. The x-rays, penicillin and potential surgery will cost money. How much were you expecting to spend on a spay?

You do need to get her on penicillin right away regardless. The ear infection is painful and Baytril just isn't sufficient.

You can assess her quality of life after that, but you may be in a position where you have to surrender her to a rescue or have to PTS.


sas :cry2

 

[Pipp]

PS: If you can get these problems cleared up now, you may be able to control spur regrowth by diet -- increasing her hay (giving her a variety and cutting back on pellets) and starting her on 'chewy' veggies (like carrot tops, kale stems, etc) and grass.

My dwarf needed her spurs done every two months, but she's gone two years without a problem with the diet change.


sas

 

[ra7751]

Hi,

I'm concerned about several points in your post. First, I am very concerned about the qualifications of your vet....and I think she pointed herlimitationsout to you herself....and I have to give her credit for that. No rabbit savvy vet would ever give Baytril tablets to give to a rabbit....or use them to make a liquid. Unless something has changed that I am not aware of....Baytril "taste tabs", which are made for dogs, are liver flavored.Nothing can cover that taste. And Baytril would not be the first choice of an antibiotic....not up to the task at hand. If I were to use Baytril orally (and I won't), it would be the injectable version that has been flavored with FlavoRX (the injectable version is very bitter tasting). In the rare times I use Baytril with rabbits, it is injected, dosed at a much higher than published dosing and is buffered. Ear infection can't be diagnosed by "looking" in the ear. In most cases, the infection is too deep to be seen. I suspect your rabbit's concern is dental....but again, looking is not an appropriate exam. The roots are also of major concern and you can't see them without radiology.

If I were treating this rabbit, getting those teeth under control would be paramount. The problem with the molars could be an abscess or just age which has loosenedthe teethand caused a misalignment....called malocclusion. A diet lacking in hay and too heavy in pellets will cause painful overgrowths of the molars....called molar spurs. They can grow so long they can trap the tongue or even puncture the roof of the mouth and invade the "sinus" (rabbits don't technically have a sinus) and cause all sorts of issues. The first order of business would be that dental work.A culture would identify any bacterial infection, but knowing whatbacteria causes most of these problems, I would most likely use a combination of Pen G(penicillins and derivitives are safe only as an injectable) and Zithromax. I would step up the pain meds. Metacam is effective as an anti-inflammatory but can cause some liver and/or kidney issues when used long term or in animals that are dehydrated. A narcotic (Buprenorphine would be my choice) or a narcotic like drug (Tramadol) would help with the discomfort. I would discard the Baytril as this drug is almost totally ineffective, causes appetite suppression and causes GI upset.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

Oh I am so happy to see these responses here already! They have had some really great things to say.

I think this article might be helpful: http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

I agree that the vet doesn't sound very good. In addition, the procedure of mask, grind, mask, grind for spurs is outdated. I think they typically can use injectible anesthetic for sedation in dental cases, or if they don't, they should. Safe and easier.

I agree that it sounds like her eye issues and perhaps her ear issues are related to the teeth. A dental x-ray is the next step, I think, to figure out what you're dealing with. If there is an abscess with teeth in it, a surgery may be required. If it's just an ear infection and unrelated tooth spurs, you'd just need the spurs filed down.

Needing the spurs filed down can be a recurring issue, but it isn't always. Some bunnies only have it once, some have it every few months.

edit: Also, see this http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=15552&forum_id=10
but don't put the medicine in yogurt--they can't digest it well.

 

[Rosiesmom]

Thanks everyone for all your very helpful suggestions... I found out that the specialist this vet spoke of is on your rabbit-savvy list and is only about 35-40 minutes away. I will bring her up there and get an xray and ask him for a 2nd opinion and a different antibiotic, etc... THANKS!!!!

 

[Rosiesmom]

oops, and of course the xray, I meant to add that... thanks again!!!

 

[MagnoliaDee]

Best of luck... I hope you get a better than the one that was quoted to you... we're going to have to be looking at getting the same proceedure done (for molar spurs) at some point in the future.

Sounds like you are doing everything you can!!!

Let us know what the new vet says.