Has anyone had a bun with diabetes?

[cmh9023]

I was trying to find info on rabbits anddiabetes. I didn't find anything specific to rabbits, but I did find a site about dogs and cats that identified the symptoms as: excessive drinking, eating and urination and weight loss. That's exactly what is going on with my little girl Sherry. She's been tested for everything related to kidneys, urinary, etc. but I don't know if she was tested for diabetes.

If anyone's had a bun with diabetes, I was wondering what the symptoms were and/or what the treatment options are? Sherry has a vet appointment on Oct. 23.

 

[Snuggys Mom]

My vet suspected one of mine had diabetes.

They will want a urine sample, so I'd suggest putting Sherry in her carrier without a towel (on the way to the appointment). Hopefully she will pee, then they can pull it up in a syringe while you're there. Otherwise, you may have to leave her.

Do you have a water small bottle that will attach to the carrier?

 

[ra7751]

Hi,

I've never had a rabbit with diabetes but I do have a degu that is hyperglycemic and it would be a similar condition between the two. With the degu, we removed nearly all the pellets and went to an almost strictly hay and greens diet. We have recently found a specific degu food but the idea for a rabbit would be the same. If I suspected a blood sugar issue, I would gradually change the food by getting away from pellets or any treat/food with any form of sugar. I would also most likely support the renal system with supplemental fluids. The kidneys should be protected, as well as the liver, at all costs.

I might would lean into a slightly different direction and a much more common affliction in a rabbit. Looking back on the buns we have had here with confirmed E Cuniculi, including our namesake Sabrina, they all experienced the same conditions you mentioned. Sabrina also presented with a lazy left rear leg every once in a while and it was barely noticable...but she also had major urinary issues in which she would urinate so often that she would be wet from head to toe..lots of bathing for her. Sabrina lost weight, wouldn't eat and stayed wet all the time.If possible, could you postSherry's blood and renal values on the forum and I can take a look at them. I would do a urinalysis...but I would not do an "expressed" test. The best way to get a good test on urine is by a procedure called cystocentesis. This is a delicate procedure in which a small needle is inserted thru the abdominal cavity and extracts urine directly from the bladder. The doctor has to have a steady hand to do this but it is the most accurate test for urinary issues. I would also have a titer for EC. The only true test for EC is post mortem, which we don't want....but a series of titers will show the levels of EC antibodies in the blood. These tests are open to interpretation but a high or strong positive usually means some type of active EC infection. Hope this helps.

Randy

 

[cmh9023]

Hi Randy-

I don't know if you saw a previous posting I made the other day: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=28769&forum_id=16. Sherry has had 2 EC titer tests that came back high.

I know my vet talked about doing the urine test with the needle in the bladder, but I can't remember if she actually did it. I know she didn't draw urine from the bottom of her carrier because she said it would be a contaminated sample. We were doing all this testing and exploration around the timeSherry got a huge abscess on her jaw so I'm foggy on what was done when, and what was put to the side until her abscess was taken care of.

I've been feeding her a lot of pellets. Pretty much as many as she wants. Around the time she had the jaw abscess she lost weight and was down to 2 lbs from her normal 2.5 lbs. She felt like such a scrawny little thing and after her jaw surgery/teeth removal she was so happy to be eating, I just decided to let her "catch up" on the eating she wasn't doing during the abscess and prior to to me finding it. I don't think she's gained any weight back though. She's hungry all the time.

I have to go pick up more needles at the vet tomorrow so I could see if I can get copies of her test results. I know that of all the tests done, the only thing that came back abnormal was the titer. If this is related to the high EC titer, is there any treatment?

 

[ra7751]

OK....that is leading toward an active EC infection. With an EC infection, the kidneys are what takes the brunt of the damage. The spores cause lots of scar tissue in there and makes the have to work harder. It is a slow process, but every rabbit we have had with EC was lost to kidney failure. If it is EC, treatment is difficult. The most popular treatment is using one of the "bendazoles" and Fenbendazole (Panacur) is the latest and greatest. The buns we have had hear with that also suffer from an ongoing array of bacterial infections. The immune system is so overwhelmed in fighting the EC, it allows stuff like pasteurella to get a foot hold. We see a lot of ear, respiratory and urinary infections in EC buns. The current treatment is still up to debate on it's effectiveness. I understand that some of the leading vets are using a horse drug called Marquis. I did have a bun we knew had EC and a teaching vet willing to do a full documented work up (so if the treatment were successful that it would have been validated by a teaching doctor) but it we did not get the chance to start the treatment on her.

We are looking to treat a bun with Marquis but the past ones have been treated with Panacur. We made every effort to keep our buns as stress free and happy as possible. That helps keep the immune system strong which is the best defence against EC. And we supported the kidneys with scheduled SQ fluids.

You might also want to discuss with your doctor about teaching you to do SQ fluids. If the kidneys aren't performing properly, they won't feel very good and won't eat well and won't gain weight if they do. A little shot of B Comp may also be helpful.

Randy

 

[Ivory]

Sorry, but I have to ask- wouldn't Sub-Q fluids only stress the kidneys more? You do not want to stress the kidneys any more than needed. If she doesn't absolutely need Sub-Q fluids I would seriously advise against pushing them. How high are her protein levels in her diet? Too much protein will also stress the kidneys in times of distress.

It is actually impossible for a rabbit to have insulin-based diabetes. Even when their blood glucose levels are through the roof, it is not considered to be caused by diabetes.

So it can't be diabetes. But excessive drinking, eating, and urination don't necessarily point to EC, though that is a large possibility due to the titer results. You said that she had weight loss, but then you said that she lost a lot of weight from her molar problems. My question is, is the weight loss related to the molars? Or is it related to the urinary problems?

I would get everything else out of the way before taking the EC route. What about bladder stones, kidney stones, sludge, all that fun stuff? Were those tested for and how long ago was it?

A high EC titer *only* means that she was exposed to it, *not* that she has an active infection of it, it could just as easily be any of the other problems.

 

[cmh9023]

Thanks for all the information!

After the first titertest came back high, she took Oxybendrole (I can't remember for how long). Is that similar to Panacur? She was re-tested after she finished that treatment but tested high again.

Then the abscess appeared and we got off track and focused on that. She is currently taking Bicillin injections every other day and Baytril twice a day for that. She's supposed to go back for the second surgery in mid-November but I'm hoping she can just stick to these antibiotics, or have the beads put in her jaw.

Her appointment is next Tuesday. I'm going to write down all the possibilities and confirm what she's been tested for and when.

She eats Oxbow Bunny Basics T which has 14% protein. Like I said, I've been giving her a lot because she's so scrawny and hungry. I think its more difficult for her to eat hay now because of all of the molars that were removed. What would be best for her diet until she sees the vet?

 

[naturestee]

I know some rabbits that are dealing with serious health problems need higher energy food. I remember that M.E. had to switch Peanut to a higher protein, higher fat pellet to keep her weight up. Oxbow 15/23 has a little bit more protein and fat, or the Saukvilled feed store carries Pen Pals, which is a good brand of breeder-type alfalfa pellets. I've bought the 15% protein pellets before for the shelter buns, they also have 16%. You can find nutritional info here:
http://www.admani.com/AllianceRabbit/

Or you could try supplementing her current diet. A little alfalfa hay could be good for her. Fey (and Sprite) tends to be skinny but can't have many pellets so she gets a tiny amount of a homemade mix that has flax seeds, sunflower seeds, and rolled oats. The Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids in those are good for health.

 

[cmh9023]

I have a bag of 15/23 that Ibought a while back by accident AND I use flax and sunflower seeds in my morning smoothie so I have those in the kitchen! How convenient When you say a tiny amount, do you mean a teaspoon? A tablespoon? I'll pick up some alfalfa hay after work tomorrow.

 

[naturestee]

Well, Fey has a sensitive stomach so I've been careful. I've worked her up from 1/4 teaspoon every other day to 1/2 every other day. I haven't noticed her filling out any, but her fur is nicer as it was getting unusually coarse before.

The only other thing I can think of is one that Randy mentioned- B vitamins. If Sherry likes the taste of Nutrical you could just give her a pea sized amount daily. Otherwise, ask your vet.

I need to start feeding myself as well as I feed my bunnies, LOL! Even the cats get sunflower and flax seed oil in their food. I should take a hint.