EMERGENCY - head tilt

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I have gone the ec route before for head tilt (treating for that) and found fairly good success - BUT - since talking to Randy and following his advice, I think I agree with him that it isn't ec (or always ec). Remember - they can be exposed to ec and have the test be positive and yet not have head tilt (if I remember right).

I'm sure Randy will pop in here so I'm going to be quiet except to say keep feeding her and giving her fluids (its a good thing she likes pedialyte) and wait on Randy. I'd hate to say something and have it be totally wrong.

I can't give much advice on critical care because while I've used it - I've always mixed it up w/ pedilayte or baby food or stuff like that and not really worried about a measurement....

But that isn't what is usually recommended...just what worked for me (to get it in the rabbit).

Peg
 
I used an online conversion tool. 3.5 lbs= 1.5876 kg. So 79 ccs. IMO you don't really need to give her that much, I don't think I could ever get my rabbits to take that much from a syringe throughout a day.

Did the vet say to keep using the Baytril? I'm not a vet, but I would think it would be better than no antibiotics, since there still might be a bacterial infection problem. Did the vet think her ears were not infected at all? FYI Ponazuril is an antiprotazoal so will only treat the EC.

I'm glad she's eating and pooping! Keep up the good work!

killertheturtle wrote:
I took her to a great rabbit vet a couple of hours ago. He thinks she has EC. I'll get the test results in a couple of days. I am very worried.
He sent me home with Ponazuril and Critical Care. He said since she is eating a little to give her 1/2 the dose of Critical Care for her weight. I have no idea how to dose this. Please help..
50 cc/kg body weight. She weighs 3.5 pounds.
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1 pound = 2.2 kg so 3.5 pounds= 1.59 kg

So, 50cc per 1kg means 80cc per 1.6kg.

Mix it according to the package (so many parts water to powder), and measure 80cc in a syringe or several syringes then give through out the day.

--Dawn
 
Hi All,

Just received a PM and also noticed that Turtle posted about using a drug called Ponazuril. It is marketed by Bayer under the brand name "Marquis". And remember I had mentioned in several postings that I had been working with a drug for EPM in horses and that I felt the next good treatment for EC would be from the equine community....this is it. I already have good feelings about this vet. I think Rocket is in very capable hands. There are only a very few research/teaching doctors that are aware of this new drug and possible treatment. Finally a real doctor that is using this drug.

Still think we are going to be dealing with a ear infection that is the real cause of this concern, maybe secondary to EC....but I am very relieved Rocket has found a rabbit savvy vet. With the buns we have had, we had to get a handle on the secondary infections before we could look at the EC. I am very excited and anxious to get updates on this situation. There is still so much for all of us to learn about EC and it's secondary effects on the body of our rabbits. Gonna be interesting. And best wishes to Rocket.

Randy

Randy
 
TinysMom wrote:
I have gone the ec route before for head tilt (treating for that) and found fairly good success - BUT - since talking to Randy and following his advice, I think I agree with him that it isn't ec (or always ec). Remember - they can be exposed to ec and have the test be positive and yet not have head tilt (if I remember right).
Click to expand...

Peg is absolutely correct. We have a rabbit who has tested strong positive for EC and she DOES NOT have head tilt or any other neurological symptoms. The titer merely let us know that she definitely had exposure to EC at some point. In fact, the our vet believed that her ocular lesions were unrelated to the EC, and it is likely that her urinary frequency is also unrelated...though we are less certain with that one. We proceeded by seeing a veterinary opthamologist who determined that our vet was correct, and that her eye problems are a genetic issue.

I share this bit of my experience because I have found that a rabbit can exhibit symptoms that COULD be EC-related, but may not be...and I would hate for you to be treating Rocket for one thing while the symptoms could be a sign of something else.

Did your vet explore the possibility of a vestibular infection? If not, did you press the issue with the vet? I have found that my vet will listen to all my ideas and suggestions, but sometimes I have to make them. (He probably would not have suggested the EC titer to me...but I said I wanted it...I think he sometimes sees patients who don't want to put big money into their bunnies...so he doesn't push them...so at times I have to "push" for what I want.)

As for Critical Care - I tend to takea more a less stringent approach than measuring and worrying about precise amounts. I use a tablespoon and add as much water as "looks" necessary to make it syringeable. If the rabbit is also in need of forced fluids, I will add a bit more water. While 80cc is the precise amount for your bunny for theday, I do not believe he will suffer from receiving a bit more or less. Perhaps you can base the amount you feed on how much other food he is consuming. Also, I would not prepare the entire day's feedings at once. I would do it a meal at a time so that it does not dry out and need to be reconstituted. I've just found this method easiest for me.

Wishing you and Rocket the very best!

-Mary Ellen
 
Oh, and just a tip- she might eat the Critical Care off of a spoon or out of a bowl or plate. Offer it too her, and maybe mix it with flavored pedialyte instead of water, or put a little yummy stuff in it like canned pumpkin or finely chopped cilantro. I think M.E's bunny Peanut ate her mushy food willingly when she first got head tilt. (She is still slightly tilted but healthy and happy now, and can eat normal food.)
 
I really can't thank you all enough for your help and wishes for Rocket. She wont eat the critical care out of a bowl (she can't seem to keep her head still enough to actually eat it or drink water) but she was more than happy to take it from a syringe.
I'll update you guys when I get the test resutls back. Thank you all.
 
Little tip on using Critical Care. With our head tilt buns, I mix the CC into a paste and spread it on a leaf of romaine (but can workwithany leafy green). Then I roll it up into something like a burrito. I then hand feed it. Several good things there. The bun gets the nutrition from the CC. Gets some hydration from the greens. You can do a little physical therapy by starting to move the burrito around so the bun will have to follow it.....helps to retrain up and down and general positioning. You can also use your other hand to massage those cramped up neck muscles....it has to be at least some uncomfortable to be pulled around in that position. And last, but certainly not least, the hands on TLC is a treatment in itself. They really enjoy the time and respond. I spent hours with Yoda doing just this during his entire event.

Randy
 
I skim-read the posts and when I saw that the most probable cause was only briefly mentioned and the course of treatment wasn't mentioned I thought I'd mention it.

The most probable cause of her head tilt is E.Cuniculi (E.C) or otherwise known as Wry Neck. It is a parasite that attacks the brain. It must be dealt with agressively and treated aggressively or otherwise it can be deadly. I have dealt with Wry Neck in my barn twice over the past 4 years that I've been raising rabbits. Wry Neck is REALLY easy to treat, particularly if it is caught early enough. One of the causes of Wry Neck is dehydration, so you must keep your rabbit very hydrated. Adequate water and food intake is a MUST when trying to treat the rabbit and so that the rabbit can recover.

Treatment: Get some Ivermection 1% Injectible. You can get Ivomec from any feed store. It can be pricey, but well worth the $$$ if it helps the bunny out. Give 1/10th cc per pound of body weight orally. Give the needed amount of Ivomec and then 7 days later give the same amount again. You should begin to see improvements, but I have always noticed the most improvements in the bunnies after the second treatment. You can do preventative treatment every 3 months, if desired. You can see alot more info about treatment at: http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/ecuniculi.htm and http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/readers_comments_on_wry_neck.htm .

I highly recommend you do this route of treatment, so that your bunny gets better ;).

Qadoshyah
Hoppin' Herd of Hares
Mini Lops Rule!
www.geocities.com/hoppinherdofhares2003/home.html
 
This has actually already been discussed and while many resources on the internet suspect ec - vets are now finding out that it may be something different.

I'm so glad we have Randy now to help us as he often helps train new vets as they rotate through his vet's office (or something like that).

Peg


HoppinMinis wrote:
I skim-read the posts and when I saw that the most probable cause was only briefly mentioned and the course of treatment wasn't mentioned I thought I'd mention it.

The most probable cause of her head tilt is E.Cuniculi (E.C) or otherwise known as Wry Neck. It is a parasite that attacks the brain. It must be dealt with agressively and treated aggressively or otherwise it can be deadly. I have dealt with Wry Neck in my barn twice over the past 4 years that I've been raising rabbits. Wry Neck is REALLY easy to treat, particularly if it is caught early enough. One of the causes of Wry Neck is dehydration, so you must keep your rabbit very hydrated. Adequate water and food intake is a MUST when trying to treat the rabbit and so that the rabbit can recover.
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I've been following this thread since the beginning and I've been thinking about this thread off and on.

A recent post about treating head tilt with Ivermectin has brought up some questions that I'd like to pose here - and I'm asking Randy to step in and maybe help us out a bit.

Randy, as you know - in the past I've followed the methods of treating head tilt with "ivermectin". I've been "lucky" as we both said - but you have shared with me how head tilt needs a different course of treatment and vets are finding out things about head tilt now that they didn't know before.

Can you please share with us what vets are learning and why head tilt isn't often caused by ecunniculi?

What should a person do now when they start to see the head tilt? What medications and or tests should they talk to a rabbit-savvy vet about?

And can you share with us about some of the rabbits you've had that have had this? Have they gotten over it? How long did it take them to get better? Tips? Suggestions?

Thanks so much...

Peg
 
Yeah that would be brilliant Peg. Randy you should have it as a pin at the top of the infirmary. I would be really interested in knowing more:D
 
The last time Pebbles was sick, she developed a slight head tilt. The doctor believed it was caused by a mid ear infection.
We treated her with APO Sulfatrim (I know Randy already commented on it), but we did catch it earlyand Pebbles has successfully recovered.
 
Hi All,

I have been following this thread quite a bit. EC and head tilt, wry neck, torticollis or whatever you would like to call it.....is something that I have dealt with quite a bit here. I am currently working on some health topics to be presented to some of the rabbit discussion and meetup groups in the area as well as the senior vet students doing clinicals. So I would like to share what I have learned about EC over the years...not only with them, but with this forum as well. I will probably be starting a new thread on the issue so we can stay on topic and be able to deal with any questions and/or comments that come up.

EC is something that is near and dear to me. You see, I now know that my beloved Sabrina, the namesake of our rescue, was taken from me by infections caused by EC. And we lost her mate, Yoda, last September after he fought a very long and brave fight against this monster. When Sabrina became ill, taking a rabbit to a vet was unheard of. And the few that did look at rabbits treated them like cats....wrong. And the only thing that anyone knew of with rabbits was "snuffles". For those of you that have read some of my previous posts....you might remember that I quite honestly hate that term. The night Sabrina came to me, I promised her that she would never again be hurt...and she wasn't. And the night I lost her, I promised her that I would help other rabbits like I helped her. And that is the short version of how our rescue got started and why I am so intent on finding a good and effective treatment for EC. This little organism took my little girl from me way too soon....and now it's personal. I am out for revenge.

EC is probably the most misunderstood affliction that a rabbit can have. Most of the "success"stories you read on the internet were probably not EC at all. Some of the treatments I have seen are harmless at best....but some are just plain scary. I am hoping to present the facts...from aclinical viewpoint...and hopefully we can all learn something about EC....the facts, the myths. While we know much more now than just a couple of years ago...the fact is that there isn't a lot of high level research on this issue. Some of the top tier vets are doing their own research and bit by bit are putting pieces together. The most promising avenue for help for our buns will be coming from equine research...horses. Horses and rabbits are treated almost identically. Horses can suffer from a closely related illness....Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (EPM). Bayer is now producing a drug called Ponazuril and marketed under the name Marquis. It has been shown to be very effective in some of the horse issues. I also understand it is being used in some stubborn coccidia infections in dogs...again with success.

It might take me a few days to get a new thread going as we have a high number of infant rescues due to recent severe storms..and they all need to be hand fed. But do keep watching...and I invite everyone to participate with questions and comments as we discuss this topic.

Randy
 
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