Sudden Death - 4 out of 5 gone - what is it?

[aBreeze]

Back story -

Buns are inside at night, go outside in a playpen during day. They dig holes, and generally plot escape and subsequent world domination.

Dates of arrival -
Joe March of 2011 - 10 weeks, 3.5lbs, from breeder
Beatrice July of 2011 - age unknown, 2.5lbs, history unknown
Jack September of 2011 - 5 years, 8lbs kept as single house rabbit all life
Blossom November of 2011 - 1 year, 4lbs, single house rabbit since leaving breeders at 8 weeks

June of 2012 Jack had a running nose and eyes. I scheduled for him to go to the vet the next day. Next morning I go out and it has completely cleared up, I canceled the appt.

late October 2012 Jack got a running nose and eyes again, he was lethargic. I made an appt for him to go in the next day but he was dead that morning

November 2012 a friend asks if I can take a rabbit that her son brought to her house and abandoned 4 months ago. No one had shown an signs of anything so I said sure.

Enter Dyson the first Sunday of December 2012, age unknown, 5.5lbs, history unknown - I kept Dyson in a cage where they all could sniff noses

The day I brought Dyson home I also trimmed nails on everyone, I clipped one of Joe's a smidge too short he bled a little.

Thursday I brought Dyson in to be neutered, that night my Joe shows some signs of lethargy but nothing else.

8am Joe was up but lethargic, his appt was at 11am, he died at 10am

I had a necropsy done, it came back that Joe died of a bacterial blood infection and the resulting organ failure. He was in perfect health otherwise.

The last week of December Dyson got a runny nose and eyes like Jack.

December 27 I didn't think Blossom was herself but couldn't pin what was wrong. I left for another state that day with her in the care of someone who spent as much time with as the buns as I did, she knows them well.

The next day I got a call that Blossom had suddenly passed away.

When I got home January 4 Beatrice was in good health and Dyson was coming out of his illness.

His runny nose and ears were gone however one ear hung and had wart like growths. He also developed a very large growth on his nose.

Middle of January I noticed that Beatrice was not herself one morning. She passed the next evening.

As of today Dyson is doing great, his ear stands up and has almost all of the hair back. Once the growth on his nose started to go down it went fast and now there is nearly no sign that it was ever there. I need to find him either a buddy or a new home but I don't know what has killed everyone else and if he can transfer it. Does anyone have any ideas?

***I realize that many of you may have done things differently and consider me a negligent rabbit owner or some such. Everyone is allowed their opinion and if you cant hold of from ridiculing me that's your right. If you can hold off and offer HELP I would be most appreciative.***

 

[missyscove]

Other than Joe who was necropsied and Dyson going in for a neuter, did any of the rabbits ever see a vet?
It's hard to call without more physical exam details (e.g. temperature, heart and respiration rates) and bloodwork.
Having Joe necropsied was definitely a good call, but di the vet express any concern for the other rabbits (did the vet know that Joe was housed with other rabbits?)
Is there any chance they're getting into something toxic in your yard when they're outside? Any contact with other animals (e.g. wildlife)?

 

[LakeCondo]

It's so hard to know. For example Dyson could be a carrier of something, but not be bothered much by it himself. Maybe farfetched, but it'd be like the woman of about 100 year ago called Typhoid Mary. She was a servant in various homes & moved on when they got sick, never knowing she'd caused the illness.

 

[majorv]

One thing you may want to do is thoroughly clean and disinfect the areas where your rabbits lived. There may be a dormant bacteria and if a rabbit becomes compromised (ie - runny nose or bleeding nail) it invades. The fact that this is happening over a long term makes me wonder if that is at least part of the problem. I also wonder if there's anything outside or in the soil, too.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

:yeahthat:

 

[ladysown]

over the course of four months you lost four bunnies very quickly but at a good space from each other.

1. possibly an illness
2. possibly an environmental issue

I would seriously look into it being an environmental issue. That they are able to ingest something that affects them. If it were an illness it should affect them all around the same time. But environmental...could be something dropping from the ceiling, could be a spider bite, infested rodent droppings, bad feed, something... Give your rabbit area a very thorough complete going over and see what you can figure out.

I'd be holding on to Dyson for a good while as a single house rabbit.
I'd be tempted to subject him to some stress to see if whatever it is affects him while he is under stress. Move him to a different room, take him out for a weekend, change his room around, give him different food...just a variety of stressors just to see if he's a carrier or if his immune system is boostering him well when he is stable.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

It's hard to determine the cause of the deaths without necropsies on each rabbit and the opinion of a licensed vet. However, the warts on the nose is most likely vent disease, which can be treated with PenG or LA-200 under vet supervision.

 

[tonyshuman]

A lot of good things already said.

I want to add that the sudden temperature change of taking them outside is not a good idea. It's ok to keep bunnies outside (with shelter) because they adapt to the temperature (within reason). Taking an inside bunny out, with a temp variation of 20 degrees or more, can be a real drain on the immune system. It may have allowed whatever they were fighting off at the time to take over.

There also could have been exposure to mold or wild/neighborhood animals. Cat bites are fatal very quickly, and they also shed toxoplasmosis in their urine.

I would have a vet look at Dyson. It's hard to tell what the growths are w/o seeing them, although vent disease (rabbit syphillis) is definitely a possibility. I would also keep him exclusively inside during the winter.

 

[missyscove]

Good point, Claire, I forget that winter in other places actually means cold. We've had temperatures in the 70's around here lately so I'll occasionally bring the buns outside for a little time on the grass.

 

[aBreeze]

Wow, you guys really brought up some good points so let me answer your questions and fix misconceptions!

Other than Joe who was necropsied and Dyson going in for a neuter, did any of the rabbits ever see a vet?
It's hard to call without more physical exam details (e.g. temperature, heart and respiration rates) and bloodwork.
Having Joe necropsied was definitely a good call, but di the vet express any concern for the other rabbits (did the vet know that Joe was housed with other rabbits?)
Is there any chance they're getting into something toxic in your yard when they're outside? Any contact with other animals (e.g. wildlife)?

Vet: Jack was neutered but had not seen a vet in several years. Joe was neutered fall of '11 and had not been to a vet since then. I am not sure if the adoption agency that I got Beatrice from ever took her in. Blossom had not.

Vet Concern: I brought Joe to the University of Minnesota for the necropsy. I did talk to the dr there and he had concerns but told me to keep an eye out for any signs with the others and hopefully we would have answers when the necropsy was done.

Outdoors: They do not go outside during the winter. They are locked up inside once the weather starts getting chilly, this year they were inside 24/7 starting in November. It is possible that they got something while outside this summer. We have an abundance of wild rabbits.

One thing you may want to do is thoroughly clean and disinfect the areas where your rabbits lived. There may be a dormant bacteria and if a rabbit becomes compromised (ie - runny nose or bleeding nail) it invades. The fact that this is happening over a long term makes me wonder if that is at least part of the problem. I also wonder if there's anything outside or in the soil, too.

Once I figure out Dyson I plan on never using their house for rabbits again. I need another pigeon house so it will be converted. All "stuff" will be tossed.

over the course of four months you lost four bunnies very quickly but at a good space from each other.

1. possibly an illness
2. possibly an environmental issue

I would seriously look into it being an environmental issue. That they are able to ingest something that affects them. If it were an illness it should affect them all around the same time. But environmental...could be something dropping from the ceiling, could be a spider bite, infested rodent droppings, bad feed, something... Give your rabbit area a very thorough complete going over and see what you can figure out.

I'd be holding on to Dyson for a good while as a single house rabbit.
I'd be tempted to subject him to some stress to see if whatever it is affects him while he is under stress. Move him to a different room, take him out for a weekend, change his room around, give him different food...just a variety of stressors just to see if he's a carrier or if his immune system is boostering him well when he is stable.

Their house is a converted shed, the ceiling is insulated with plastic over it. The walls plywood over insulation, the floor plastic over plywood over insulation. This fall we did have a problem with field mice moving in however I set traps/poison and no longer have signs of them in there (on longer feces, etc) That was in November. Your right though, that could be it... I've completely changed out the feed.

His house is kept between 50* and 60* all winter, I was gone for a week and had the farm sitter bring him inside our house. He's lonely. It wasnt much of a temperature change for him, but definitely enough to throw him for a loop. He's been lonely and such since Beatrice passed... thats a stresser.

A lot of good things already said.

I want to add that the sudden temperature change of taking them outside is not a good idea. It's ok to keep bunnies outside (with shelter) because they adapt to the temperature (within reason). Taking an inside bunny out, with a temp variation of 20 degrees or more, can be a real drain on the immune system. It may have allowed whatever they were fighting off at the time to take over.

There also could have been exposure to mold or wild/neighborhood animals. Cat bites are fatal very quickly, and they also shed toxoplasmosis in their urine.

I would have a vet look at Dyson. It's hard to tell what the growths are w/o seeing them, although vent disease (rabbit syphillis) is definitely a possibility. I would also keep him exclusively inside during the winter.

They never experience a 20* change. Once its freezing temperature it they are locked up. We play with the heat in their house to make sure its consistant.

Mold is very unlikely, no cat bites, cat urine is a possibilty. I always seem to have male strays come through that may have marked the fence or some such. However the last contact with that would have been October. Dyson has never been out in their outdoor run.

I will bring Dy in to the vet and mention vent disease. If he has it can we treat it 100% so its not transferable? Do you think the vets can nail whatever the heck I have going on?

 

[mochajoe]

I am so sorry for your loss! I know from experience that sometimes no matter what you do, and how well you take care of your furry friends tragedy can happen...we recently lost 4 baby goats in 4 months...all fluke things; 2 to a poisoness plant (they got loose and got into our flower bed), 1 congenital heart defect, and the last to bloat! We have a couple of friends who have had goats for over 20 years and never experienced any of these things. We have had goats for two years...and had all this in 4 months (July-November). It is so tough...again, I feel your pain and again, I am so sorry for your loss! Keeping you and Dyson in my thoughts and prayers!

 

[aBreeze]

I am so sorry for your loss! I know from experience that sometimes no matter what you do, and how well you take care of your furry friends tragedy can happen...we recently lost 4 baby goats in 4 months...all fluke things; 2 to a poisoness plant (they got loose and got into our flower bed), 1 congenital heart defect, and the last to bloat! We have a couple of friends who have had goats for over 20 years and never experienced any of these things. We have had goats for two years...and had all this in 4 months (July-November). It is so tough...again, I feel your pain and again, I am so sorry for your loss! Keeping you and Dyson in my thoughts and prayers!

I am so sorry for your loss! Sometimes it feels like the more you care the worse your luck is... I personally get relief just knowing that they lived great lives. It may have been much to short by my liking but now they're digging 10' holes in heaven, escaping into the great outdoors and frolic with fox and coyotes and owls... All the friends that I wouldn't let them meet.

 

[tonyshuman]

Sorry, you just said at the beginning of your post that they played outside during the day. Those temps should be ok. Is there any chance your buns got into the poison you put out for the mice? I also wonder if the poison is excreted in the urine of mice? Was it D-Con? Cat urine can be a problem as toxoplasmosis can cause rapid death with few other symptoms.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/seizure.htm

I would expect that a vet that knows rabbits would know what vent disease is if they see it. That can be treated simply and cheaply with penicillin shots. It will be latent in his system but should not cause an active outbreak. It's difficult to find a rabbit that has never been exposed to syphilis, so any you bring in to your herd may also be carrying it. It's unclear to me whether or not a rabbit with a latent infection can pass it to others.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Skin_diseases/Bacterial/Syph_gen.html