Nala and Gaz get a "Nermal" [a journal on trio bonding]

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Hehe, Felix got his first nail trimming since I took him home today... but it was done at the breeder while he got his calci vaccination. :upsidedown: I'm a bit worried to try trimming them myself next time, but that video will help a lot! He's a dwarf so he should be easier to keep a handle on, too.
 
YOU'RE THE BOSS!!! Can I send Baby to your house for trims? She's a monster come trimming time :p
 
Omg girl you rock that hair lol. Congrats on your first nail trimming on the new bun.

If he were my rabbit, I'd name him Badger
 
I love the color of your hair btw. Badger is a nice name as well. He did well getting his nails done.
 
You make that look so easy. Want to come up for a visit? Thumper is laid back enough for me to trim his nails while he's bunloafed with some nose rubs in between . I can pet him anywhere and most of the time he is fine with it but he does not want picked up.
 
Mmmm... that seems good advice. You're right, Charlie would be much easier to bond with a new rabbit than Clementine. And I was indeed concerned about her ending up getting alienated if the new rabbit would only bond with Charlie. Unfortunately our shelter doesn't allow bunny dates, but they do allow human-bunny dates. When I picked Charlie, who is perfect for Clementine, I picked him out after spending time with all the shelter rabbits while imagining that I was Clementine haha. Thanks!
 
Thanks, I love the purple too, hehe... the crimson came out a little stronger than I'd planned near the top of my head, but it works (don't think you can even see that on the video because of the lighting). It's my first time using "Splat" brand dye - I hadn't even known there was a permanent dye for "unnatural" colors! Much better than manic panic and such (don't have to leave it in for hours to get good results and it doesn't fade out over the course of a month - the last time I made a video, my hair was kind of silvery blue from the traces of blue and purple manic panic dye :p). The bleach that comes with it is godawful, though - I should've listened to my instincts instead of trusting that maybe they knew something I didn't. Next time I'm going back to the garnier nutrisse lighting stuff that's bleach-free - I don't understand how it works so well without seeming to damage your hair, but it's amazing!

There's no way I could trim this guy's nails with him bunny-loafed - he struggles way too much over being held in place! Not sure why he hates it so much when he'll gladly lay with you and cuddle for ages. I actually woke up in the middle of the night to find him licking my face, neck and chest!

I think I'm going to name him "Norm" (short for "Norman") :D
 
Thanks for the nail trimming video, Jennifer! One question about nail trimming, can you use regular people finger nail clippers? Reason I ask is I do have the cat nail scissor type clippers but either they are defective or me! lol I tried to clip a bunny nail & when I went to snip the nail the scissor clipper didn't cut the nail even though I completely closed it. I have trimmed my bird's nails with regular human finger nail clippers & followed up filing them to smooth them out with a cardboard nail file. I seriously, think my cat clipper scissors are off so they don't close properly for cutting but maybe it is just me.
 
That's the interesting thing with Thumper, I don't have to hold him. He will run to me and if I sit down he immediately loafs to get nose/cheek rubs. Usually he sits to the side of me often with his head on my leg. I just give rubs for a few minutes and then can reach over him, hold a foot and trim a nail. Then I just give some more pets and do it again.

I am smart enough to time it when no one is home but me and when the dog is snoozing to lessen the chance of Thump being startled by something which doesn't happen often and I may finish the task over a two day period but it is so nice and easy to accomplish.
 
Your tactic wouldn't work on this guy, lol - he normally loves to come up for snuggles, but god help me if I try to lift a paw! I had to resort to flipping him on his back just now in order to get a picture of one of his nails for another thread. It also doesn't help that he's got sable coloring and dark nails, so the black fur on his feet makes them very hard to see if I can't splay the paw out.

I really think that when it comes to nail trims and picking bunnies up, there are obviously some ways that are "wrong" (because they make it possible for the bunny to injure themselves in the process)... but there's no ONE right way to do it. Different bunnies and different owners have different preferences - it's about figuring out what tactics fit your particular situation. If someone can clip nails comfortably and safely with the bunny upright/in loaf position, then that's a perfectly viable way to do it... and a bunny who's reasonably happy with that method may not take well to being flipped for nail trims anyway. My bunnies are the opposite, though - they need that firm control, otherwise they're far too squirmy for me to be safe and accurate with the clippers.

Tauntz - the clippers I use in the video are a $3 pair of bird clippers; I've also got a pair of cat clippers (which look identical other than a different color plastic around the top) that I use, depending on which I find first (both work great on the bunnies and the cats)... I've also got a tinier pair of bird clippers that I got from the breeder I got my first sugar gliders from that I use on them (those are too delicate for bunny nails, though). I've never actually tried human nail clippers on any of the pets... I know some people use the slanted type for gliders, but I imagine bunny nails are a bit thick for them. You could always try it, though. FWIW, it does sound like your cat clippers are defective - possibly too dull or don't close properly.
 
Yes, that wouldn't work with a squirmy one. I was actually surprised when he let me trim his nails while he just laid there. Some of his nails are dark which required me to use a light to make sure of the quick first which made it a little more difficult. Sometimes a third arm would just be a God send.

With the girls it's definitely at least for now a two person job. They aren't even crazy about being petted let alone holding and being still that long.
 
Love this and yes, you did call him Norm....I was reading your other blog and thought...OMG what did I miss. He´s a little cutie, love his colour and things seem to be going quite well for a start.

Unusually enough, nail clipping for my three is relatively easy, they are all getting better at being handled as they get older and all tolerate being picked up quite well and seem to actually enjoy it now whereas before both Houdini and Bandy would struggle like hell.

Can´t wait to see how things develop between these three. And yes, I hope they don´t teach him bad habits lol.
 
So this afternoon, Jay (who is virtually uneducated about bunny bonding aside from my occasional off-hand explanatory comment but is a bit of a born bunny-whisperer) volunteered his take on the current situation.

Norm is penned in the hallway/bathroom area; blocking the doorway into the living room is one of my 1x2 and screen "thwartation" doors - meaning the bunnies have been able to smell each other and see each other for quite a while now (their pen stops 3-4' away from the screen door). You can't see all of one bunny area from the other, so they're often not in view of each other, but they *are* able to interact from a distance somewhat.

He told me he sees them communicating across the gap to some extent (as do I - I often spot them at the gate to the pen/Norm at the screen door, all looking across at each other and appearing to exchange some casual thoughts).

According to him, Normie looks like he's outright desperate to be with the other bunnies instead of being isolated... the girls give off more of a "curious" vibe but are willing to wait and see how things pan out. He also mentioned that whenever Norm gets through the screen door into the living room (because it was left ajar for a moment), he usually goes straight to the pen and if the girls are nearby, the three of them will greet/sniff/etc. through the bars.

He then informed me that "It kinda seems like they're all waiting on you."

I had been stalling to wait out Norman's hormones and trying to dismiss the "What's the hold up, mom, why aren't we being bonded? We're ready, **** it!" vibe I've been getting from all three bunnies... as well as Normie's longing, almost desperate gazes out into the girls' pen like he's convinced he belongs there... but after Jay pointed out everything I'd been thinking to myself the last few days, I decided to go ahead and give bonding a try.

I have a fold-up baby crib (minus a mattress and two of the four legs are missing casters) that I scavenged from the parking lot a while back and periodically use as a sawhorse and/or for temporary storage that's inaccessible to cats/bunnies, so I decided to try using that with a shower curtain liner over the bottom to protect the wood bottom from pee/spray bottle water.

I left the crib where it happened to be at the moment - in the living room, just outside the girls' pen - and hoped that was far enough from their territory to be neutral. I put Norm and Gaz in first. He didn't get around to humping her quite as quickly this time, but was still very adamant once he got started. It was difficult to get him to stop - and stay stopped - for more than a couple seconds; however, it was still possible (an improvement over last time). Once I actually derailed the humping, they'd sit there and ignore each other for 10-20 seconds before he got into being humpy again. Like last time, Gaz didn't seem to care.

I attempted to interrupt the humping after it had gone on for a reasonable length of time with a water bottle so that I wouldn't have to get in the middle of things (noise making was off-limits because Jay was asleep and I somehow totally forgot about my original plan of shaking the crap out of the crib to startle them). Normie cares far more about humping than he does about getting wet, heh - the water only got his attention if I inadvertently got him in the eye with it. Poor guy. The whole top of his head was wet by the end of the bonding session - what a stubborn little bunn!

Because he was still quite hump-happy, I was going to hold off on introducing him to Nala officially... she had been watching us from the pen the entire time, though, and looked quite sad about being left out. I decided it was best not to feed that negative emotion by failing to include her.

I had planned to do a 1-on-1 with him and Nala when they first met face to face; however, I had also planned to wait out his hormones. Since I was deciding to jump the gun, I decided it might also be best to add Nala without removing Gaz so that Normie's humping would be split between two potential targets.

I picked Nala up, then realized I didn't know exactly where I'd put my heavy work gloves, so I had to rummage around for them while holding her and then get them on (while still holding her). Fun times. I was half-expecting the worst, though, and I really didn't want to take a full-force bite!

I put Nala in with the other two, and that's when my girls decided to throw me off *completely*!

I set her in there and she thumped as Normie came up to sniff her... however, I determined based on subsequent thumps that the first one wasn't about Norm - it was about being in the crib. Norm sniffed her while she looked for an exit, then he started to hump her. I was astounded when she ignored it! I interrupted him after a few seconds, by which time she seemed mildly annoyed but not inclined to do anything about it. He turned his attention to Gazzles while Nala periscoped and sniffed for an exit.

I can't help wondering if Nala's presence played a significant role in Gaz's change of behavior - suddenly Gaz was trying to get away from Norm's humping. The big shock was when Norm turned his attention back towards Nala and all of a sudden Gaz mounted him and starting humping him voraciously! o_O Thankfully, Norm didn't mind... I was a bit concerned with how adamantly Gaz was trying to make that point about dominance, though.

I broke that up and got them back to neutral positions. Nala proceeded to work on seeing if she could get her head stuck between the crib bars; I kept a worried eye on that while simultaneously making sure the hump-fight between the other two stayed under control.

At some point, there was a 3-way-hump - Nala was facing a corner, looking for that exit, when Norm started humping her and Gaz promptly started humping him! I got right on splitting that up, heh... and as I was separating them, Nala finally succeeded in squeezing between the crib bars and escaping to the floor. I let the other two discuss who was going to be on top while I rounded her up.

Nala had obviously had her fill, so I put her back and let Norm and Gaz have a little more time together. Even with Nala gone, Gaz was still on her role-reversal kick... after a couple minutes, the fact that Norm was politely requesting to be the humpER instead of the humpEE looked like it was suddenly about to piss Gazzles off something fierce - she had that angry, I'm gonna bite someone look in her eye - so I quickly pulled them apart, pet them both until they melted a bit and then returned everyone to their pens.

So... yeah. I thought I knew what to expect, but I was about as wrong as could be. I'm starting to get a little concerned about this whole thing - I didn't realize Gaz was so desperate for an opportunity to prove her ability to be dominant over someone. Norm may very well be on board with that once his hormones are gone but at the same time, I feel like (based on "conversations" from their respective pens, not tonight's meet-and-hump) Normie and Nala really connect on an intellectual level in a way that Nala and Gaz just don't. Nala truly seems to have a genius-level IQ and mindset - more often than not, you can tell by looking at her that her mind is going a mile a minute, pondering the universe or whatever it is that bunnies ponder. Her mind is rarely idle. Gazzles prefers to keep things simple for the most part - she'll loaf it up and zone out, content with what she's got. I've always suspected that Nala tires of Gazzle's simplicity from time to time; I think Normie is exactly what she's been needing - a companion with a few philosophical musings to offer when he's not doing the usual naughty, destructive bunny stuff... I just worry that Gaz could feel left out and cause problems over it, though. Hopefully I'm over-thinking it all!

I'll play it by ear tomorrow, but I'm inclined to wait out Norm's hormones a little longer unless the bunnies give me a reason not to. Perhaps if he's not trying to hump everyone, Gaz won't insist on humping him to put him in his place. I think there's a good chance that they can figure out a nice group dynamic where no one feels left out.

Also, it seems I need to figure out a new "neutral territory" set-up or invest in some chicken wire or something - now that Nala knows she can get out of the crib, she'll go right for that exit every time unless I thwart her.
 
It seems like your life is spent thwarting naughty animals, lol.

That's a great bonding account. They do have a tendency to surprise us, don't they. I was quite surprised too, with my trio attempt right now. I never expected my super grumpy bun, to put up with a newcomer, and never thought Penny would decide to be the submissive one. We think we know them so well, then they go and do crazy things like this to us :p

I think the introduction was good. Now your buns won't be wondering so much about the other bun(s) on the other side of the room. I'm far from an expert on bonding, but have one thought, which you are probably already going to do, but I was thinking that it might be good to hold off on more bonding attempts til he is a little more settled. You don't want your girls forming an opinion about him at this point when his behavior is hormonally driven, and not what he will necessarily end up being like. Basically you don't want them deciding they don't like that humpy boy, when that's not his true personality. But as you know, it's just info to consider, and listening to your gut is often the best way to follow.

I'm glad they got to meet. That moment always makes me a bit nervous. It's like ok, I really hope I don't have break up rabbits that decide they want to kill each other. Fun times :p
 
To me, it sounds like it went really really well.

For super hump-happy buns, I read a tip once. It said to take a stuffed animal and rub it like crazy against the humpees, and then put it in the cage of the humper. Let him work out some of his humping frenzy on it and THEN start bonding. I've never tried it and have no idea if it works haha. But if it continues to be a problem it might be worth a shot.
 
The count of naughties vs humans in our apartment is 9:2... the count of other naughties vs me is 10:1... so yeah, I spend a lot of time thwarting!

They're still just as curious, lol... and Normie's even more desperate to be with his new "girlfriends". I tried to explain to him that his boy parts have been surgically removed and I am not in the business of helping anyone assemble a harem. He responded by pawing at the screen door, begging to get into the living room. I ripped up, washed, and distributed a head of green leaf lettuce as a bed time snack and everyone was suddenly far too concerned with how awesome lettuce is to care about anything else.

I think I may try a little bit of bonding time between him and Nala in the next day or two, but with the way things were headed at the end of the session, I'll definitely be waiting a week or so to try Normie and Gaz again. Tonight's session was, in large part, about gauging hormones as I had introduced him to Gaz 16 days ago and all he had in mind was humping - this is the first time since then that he's been able to interact with either girl without a barrier between them. I figured he'd still be hormonal, but it was nice to see that he wasn't as bad as before. I mainly want to do one more mini-session with him and Nala because Gazzles was supposed to serve as my "litmus test" for hormones - ie the bunny who wouldn't get offended if the answer to "Is he still hormonal?" was "Yes." With Gaz turning the tables and humping him as intensely as he humped her during their first session a couple weeks ago, I'd like a little more information to help me decide whether I should use Nala or Gaz for the hump-test when I try again in a week or two.

I really wish those darn hormones would GTFO already, though!! I've been venturing into woodworking lately and am about to start a project that involves making a very large sunken litter-box (ie top entry rather than side entry) - it drives me nuts how the girls pull so much hay out of their manger into the litter box, then from there, spread it out across most of the pen... so the new litter-box (or rather, litter box encasement of sorts) will be a thwartation device aimed at forcing them to keep the hay IN the box. I only have to build it once and it seems best to save that one creation so that it can double as a neutral item when I eventually (hopefully) move them all in together. That means until they're all bonded, I have to put up with hay ALL over the floor of the pen even though I've already got a solution lined up ><
 
To me, it sounds like it went really really well.

For super hump-happy buns, I read a tip once. It said to take a stuffed animal and rub it like crazy against the humpees, and then put it in the cage of the humper. Let him work out some of his humping frenzy on it and THEN start bonding. I've never tried it and have no idea if it works haha. But if it continues to be a problem it might be worth a shot.

I could definitely see that working for some; however, I'm quite doubtful that Normie would be fooled. While many bunns hump indiscriminately (your foot/leg, stuffed animals, furniture, you name it), he has never ONCE appeared to even consider humping anything other than a real, live female rabbit.

I did get a couple stuffies at Goodwill a while back that are vaguely rabbit-sized, though - I may see if I can dig one up just to test the theory :).
 
I did laugh at some of your bonding description, I was thinking of the look on your face when they act exactly the opposite of what you're expecting. I think Nala is a plotter, Houdini is like that, sometimes when I see him looking over the top of the xpen or sitting on top of his cage thinking, I can almost hear the cogs of that brain turning, sure Nala is the same. Never sure what he's planning next.

Probably best to give them a break until his hormones settle properly. I can't remember what humping is like, mine haven't done it since they were done.

Watching how this develops with interest.
 
Oh dear, reading that made me chuckle. I can only imagine the scene. Keeping my fingers crossed, I hope Normie can play nice with his two sisters.
 

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