Lionhead question....

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It's hard for me to tell with those pictures onthat site. Madilyn has a very nice skirt, but her mane looks like thesingle-maned.

Maybe it's because those lionheads look very well groomed and poofy? lol


- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts
 
I really REALLY need to go feed rabbits - I'mlate tonight but keep getting either phone calls or just having tocheck out the forum...

One other difference is lionheads is their "stance".

The earlier lionheads were more flat and sort of laid on the groundrather than wanting to sit upright. Think of a....I don't know - aflemish or something? How they lay low to the ground?

However, the "new and improved" lionheads sit upright - more like a holland lop.

If y'all want me to - when I'm done with the rabbits I'll post somevarious pics of lionheads to show you what I mean...if you're reallyinterested that is!

Peg
 
Hey Peg...do you show older Lionheads or just before the first molt?
 
Pics are def good! Skittles sitsupright and beautiful for pics and Peppers mushes into a puddles andtries to disappear!:D
 
When Madilyn sits up, she sits straight. Like this picture.....


normal_madilynmae4%20006.jpg




It doesn't look perfectly straight, but she doesn't "lay to the ground" either.


I would like some pictures of lionheads so I have a better understanding, that is if you aren't busy/don't feel like it!




- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts
 
Ok – I’m going to call this the “History ofLionheads – 101”. I’m going to try to make it brief and easy tounderstand…but knowing me – don’t count on it really being brief.

This is Hyacinth. I bought her from Bob Whitman in 2005. She is a direct import from England.






Notice how she sits like a little pot bellied pig or something. She is a sable chin (chinchilla) lionhead in coloring.

Now this next set of photos is of Harry. He is a single mane chinchillalionhead that is 2 steps away from being an import…in other words – hisgreat grandmother was an import I think.








While I am showing Harry sitting up – he does not NATURALLY sit up. Heprefers to lay down on the ground much like Hyacinth does.

Now – I bred Harry to a very upright doe I had ~ and his daughter,Anissa, took my very first “homegrown” Best of Breed in December of2005. I was shocked.

Here she is as a junior – shortly after her win.









Now – she naturally sits up like that. It is more comfortable for herto sit like that than it is for her to lay down like her father.

The next photo I’m going to show you – is of Anissa’s daughter. I sortof have great hopes for her – except for one thing and I’ll share thatin a bit.










Now do you see how her daughter is sitting up even more (and has a much nicer mane)? This is closer to what I want.

But the problem is – the lionhead standard really calls for a shorter rabbit as far as body length goes.

Let me show you Miss Bea as an example…compared to Anissa again…



URL=http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/PegFlint/88107f2f.jpg]
th_88107f2f.jpg
[/URL]






Can you see how Miss Bea is just LONGER from the back of her head toher tail? And Anissa is shorter (and that is what makes her sit taller)?

Now let me show you some pictures of one of my nicest does I’ve produced…

I’m going to show you four pictures of the same doe. In two of them she is older and in two of them she is younger.

Notice her “stance” or her “topline” as she sits. She sits very upright…her body is short and what some will call “cubby”.

Unfortunately she is “tort otter” or “fox” which is not a showablecolor per the colors on the certificates of development. However, Iwill keep her (her name is Foxy Lady) as she has something to offer mybreeding program.









Now let’s look again at my blue doe from Anissa who was about the same age when this photo was taken..





Can you see how her body is longer?

For a show quality lionhead, I look for the shorter babies like the one I showed you right before I showed you this blue doe.

I am getting to the point now where I can tell by looking in thenestbox if I may have something promising. I look at the length andchubbiness of the body and I look at the ears and the width of the head.

Now do me a favor. Hold your hand out in front of you and look at it.

If I have a baby that is proportioned like your middle finger – I cry.This baby is going to be pet quality – I can almost guarantee it. Putbig ears on it and it will DEFINITELY be pet quality.

Now look at your pinkie finger. If I have a rabbit that is proportionedlike this – yes – it is shorter…and that is good. It might havepotential as a breeder rabbit…maybe.

But the rabbit babies I want to see are going to be proportioned likeyour thumb. I want short and chubby. Give me that and I’ll rejoicewhile I want to see how the rabbit develops and if it has any mismarks,etc.

Let me know if you have any questions…ok?

Basically though, lionheads have gone from looking like Hyacinth – lowto the ground – to the tort otter doe that I showed you.


Peg

P.S. One last thing....a rabbit that has the short body thatis so desireable PREFERS to sit upright and it is almost as if it isuncomfortable for them to not sit upright (unless they lay down tosleep). They often look like they're sitting at attention.
 
Wow! Thanks so much, Peg. That explained a lot!:thanks:

I can definitely tell between the body length. When I got to the partwhere you said to hold your hand out and notice the sizes of yourfingers compaired to the babies, my fiance thought I was nuts. Then Itold him about it and he was like "Ohhh, I see. That is very neat".
:great:



In pictures Madilyn's body looks longer, but those are just pictures.Her body isn't as long as it looks in the pictures. What was thecorrect ear length for lionheads.....2 inches? I forgot!

That must be hard seeing such an amazing bunny, but the color is all wrong for the show ring.




- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts




 
First of all - from the standard:

[font="Arial, Helvetica,sans-serif"]EARS- Points 5: Ears are to be short, wellset on top of head, erect, well furred, of good substance, and with astrong ear base. They are to be rounded at the tips. Ears shouldbalance with the head and body. When relaxed ears will be carries in aslight "V".[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica,sans-serif"]Faults- Ears that are pointed, lack furring,or do not balance with the body
[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica,sans-serif"]Disqualifications from Competetion - Ears thatexceed 3-1/2 inches in length, wool more then halfway up theear[/font]
The funny thing is - as I look at the pictures now - there is NO WAY Iwould take Anissa (my first Best of Breed) to a show now. She'd bealmost laughed off the table - yet 18 months ago she took Best of Breed(against some nice lionheads).

The reason I did the breeding that produced her was that Harry (herdad) had a wide body and a wide face and nice wide ears. Her mother(Lava) had a narrow face that I did not like and she was narrow in theshoulders. However, she wasn't as long in the body as some does and Ifelt like the cross might give me something to work with.

Anissa has gone on to produce babies that have smaller ears and bodythan her - maybe not much smaller on some - but she's done well. Herbabies also consistently keep their mane (by the way - if I rememberright - she is a single mane) like her father Harry).

Anissa is a real sweetheart and I may be rehoming her later this year.I hate to do it - but honestly, I have better does than her and shedeserves a pet home where she can run and play more.

Peg

undergunfire wrote:
Wow! Thanks so much, Peg. That explained a lot!:thanks:

I can definitely tell between the body length. When I got to the partwhere you said to hold your hand out and notice the sizes of yourfingers compaired to the babies, my fiance thought I was nuts. Then Itold him about it and he was like "Ohhh, I see. That is very neat".
:great:



In pictures Madilyn's body looks longer, but those are just pictures.Her body isn't as long as it looks in the pictures. What was thecorrect ear length for lionheads.....2 inches? I forgot!

That must be hard seeing such an amazing bunny, but the color is all wrong for the show ring.




- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts
 
Now I'm going to have to measure Madilyn's ears tomorrow, since I am curious!

I hope Anissa finds a great home. She is just gorgeous!

By the way, I told Ryan today when we went out to lunch that I wasgetting a lionhead from you. He put down his fork and said"UHHHH....when?". I said, "Nevermind" and smiled.;) Then he was askingabout your lionheads, their colors, if you work with them as babies tobe super sweet, how much it would cost to fly one in and if we wouldhave to drive to Pheonix to pick it up.

He is CRAZY about the buns, especially the lionheads. Every night hesits down with the boys and plays with them for a while. It's so funnybecuase I never would have expected him to be that type of guy, maybewith a dog. I just wish that our landlord (when we move into our ownplace, hopefully this summer) is okay with us having bunnies,four....tops!:wink




- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts


 
I actually have two rabbits going to NM from Nationals...there is a breeder coming to Nationals from New Mexico....

...and I thought WE had a long drive.

Peg
 
I've been meaing to add this...

The North American Lionhead Club's website is:

www.lionhead.us

You can find information on it about the club, about past LionheadNational shows, bout the upcoming Lionhead show in May (in Columbus,OH), and all sorts of other helpful stuff.

You can also print out the membership form and JOIN the club. You getthe guidebook (ok - I'm prejudiced about it since I helped put the lastone together and Miss Bea's photo is in it)...plus 4 issues of ManeMusings...the quarterly newsletter - plus you get the show catalog forthe National Lionhead show if you're an active member when it shipsout. (It shipped out last week or the week before but there areinstructions on the site about requesting a copy of the catalog).

I understand that the newest edition of Mane Musings should be verygood. It has an interview with Arden Wetzel, the first Certificate ofDevelopment holder for the breed. From what I've read - he talks abouthow heartbreaking it has been to try and present the breed time andtime again and how it has taken some of the fun out of rabbit-breeding.I think all lionhead breeders and owners owe him, along with GailGibbons of Cimmaron and Theresa Mueller of Pridelands, a debt ofgratitude for being willing to try and get the breed through ARBA. IfArden fails this year - Gail will present next year and try to startthe process again.

Anyway, I enocurage folks who have lionheads and love them to join theclub - I think it is $10 per year or something like that for oneperson...

Peg


 
Ohhh, yeah! I have been to New Mexico quite afew times. I can't say I really like it all that much though. I havebeen to Texas only once. That was when my stepmother and I drove fromupstate New York to northern Arizona when we moved here in August of'05....7 day trip! That was a heck of a ride:zzzzz.





- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts
 
I was going to join the club when you first toldme about it, but it says "Please make a check payable to.....". I don'thave any checks. I will have to order some. I use my debit card forEVERYTHING.

I don't even know how to go about getting checks:embarrassed:.





- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts
 
They also take money orders and I'm sure they take cash although I know you probably shouldn't send that through the mail....

And I understand about long trips.....we moved from Altus, OK toAnchorage, AK in 1996....with a 24' UHaul and a Suburban. We drove upthe AlCan Highway.

Then in 2000....fools that we were - we drove back DOWN the AlCan Highway to move from Anchorage, AK to Andrews AFB, MD.

I think I'd rather shoot myself than move again.....at least I didn't have rabbits on those trips!


 
Heh, I'd also rather not move again! We soldlike everything we owned in a garage sale and bought all new when wemoved out here, so atleast we didn't have to haul a bunch of stuff,just the things we didn't want to get rid of.

I will go to my bank tomorrow and see about getting checks. I have someat my father's house from when I first opened my account, but we reallyaren't on speaking terms right now, so I'd rather not go there and getthem.




- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts
 
Oh wow...what a great bunch of information! And to think, I was asking you, Peg, about the breed earlier! :D

Lionheads are so beautiful...I'm really surprised they aren't ARBA qualified yet.

Question: What reason(s) are they giving as far as not allowing them to be an ARBA-recognized breed??
 
Rosie,

I want to say "don't get me started going there.."...because I have some very very strong feelings about this.

Let me explain that in order to become a breed - you must pass"presentation" before the standards committee 3 times within 5 years.There's a whole bunch of other stuff too - like you can't fail morethan twice in a row and stuff like that. This year Arden will be on hislast attempt to get torts through (every other color on his COD hasfailed presentation too often to try).

Some of this is political. I can't go into details although there isstuff I have heard. Let's just say that if someone doesnt' like you -they're going to do anything they can to not see you succeed. Its humannature.

Some of it is that a lot of folks just don't like the breed....for various reasons. Don't get me going there either.

I do know that the second time the blacks did not pass- the reason theydid not pass was that they literally blew up the rabbit's rear(practically) to find five or six white hairs that had becomediscolored from going to the bathroom. Mind you ... experiencedbreeders (and I think judges) had gone over these rabbits extremelycarefully to make sure that there was nothing to disqualify (dq) them.I think it took the 9 judges something like 2 hours to find a reason todq them with everyone going over every single rabbit.

However - with that said - it is important to note that when you make apresentation - EVERY SINGLE RABBIT IN THAT PRESENTATION needs to beable to take BOB (Best of Breed) at a show. That's just how good theyhave to be.

Why you say? My understanding is that it is because they want to makesure that these rabbits can produce offspring that are as good quality- or better.

Rumor has it that they probably won't pass again this year - forreasons I can not go into on a public board. Hopefully, we're wrong andthey will pass.

Last year the torts failed because supposedly one doe looked like achocolate tort instead of a tort. Funny thing is - if I remember right- she was accepted as a tort the year before AND genetically there wasnothing in the pedigrees to show that she COULD have been a chocolatetort.

From what I understand - all it takes is one "Nay" vote from the committee for the breed to not pass.

By the way - things are difficult for every breed that is trying to get passed (or new color for breeds) - not just lionheads.

I wish I could say more...but I can't.

Oh - for those who are wondering - if Arden fails this year - GailGibbons takes over next year and gets to present in her five colors onher certificate. If she passes all five colors the first time - thenshe presents them the second time. If she fails any of them - she stillgets to present them again the following year. But if any color failspresentation two years in a row - they're knocked out. If Gail doesn'tget the breed passed - then it will fall to Theresa Mueller ofPridelands.

Peg



maherwoman wrote:
Oh wow...what a greatbunch of information! And to think, I was asking you, Peg,about the breed earlier! :D

Lionheads are so beautiful...I'm really surprised they aren't ARBA qualified yet.

Question: What reason(s) are they giving as far as not allowing them to be an ARBA-recognized breed??
 
Wow.:shock:
 
Wow is right:shock:!

I don't even know what to say. I just hope they pass.





- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts
 
Many lionhead breeders have said that they believe it will take Theresa Mueller to get the breed passed - for two reasons..

a. politics (Gail Gibbons was not known for being shy & sweet before she pulled her COD)

and

b. it may take that long to get members on the standards committee who are more open to the breed..

However, I am presenting that as HERESAY and not fact.

I also want to remind folks once again that every new breed has a hardtime with this and many times they don't get passed early on. I forgetwhat breed it was that took 14 years before it passed....and I'm notsure if that was the first presentation or something else.

So I'm not just saying that they are singling out lionheads..

Peg

undergunfire wrote:
Wow is right:shock:!

I don't even know what to say. I just hope they pass.





- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts
 

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