How thin is too thin for a bunny?

[Victoria]

Hi

I have posted before about Black losing some weight. I want to speak about this again plus about his brother Red. They both seem thin to me. Black was always on the thin side for some reason, but Red became thinner only when the weather became hotter (he was really padded in winter but then lost it all in just a few days after the warmer days started about 1 month ago).

So what I was wondering about how much should they weigh?

Black is 1 kg 900 g and the vet said that he is underweight when we saw them in July. At that point he was treated with Panacur, Bicillin injections and Baytril also by mouth. He had nystagmus (how to spell not sure) - he did not have a sense of ballance and his eyes kept scanning from side to side to find ballance, he also had a slight to medium head tilt. Now he does not have those neurological symptoms. He makes a gurgling sound when he drinks and the vet said that he has an infection in his throat at the back of it. However all the meds did not help it. The vet said to bring him back for an injection of antibiotic and that he should be better after that. We have not done it as yet because the vet was so expensive last time we had nothing left unfortunately as I also was sick and had to see human doctors.

He eats and drinks ok but is quite skinny.

Red also makes this gurgling sound when he drinks now.

Did any one hear this kind of sound when a rabbit drinks? Can infection at the back of the throat cause weight loss? What can we do at home until we save enough money to see the vet to improve this and is it important to get him to the vet sooner (we will be able to get a loan from a friend).

thank you in advance for your answers.

 

[Maureen Las]

Your rabbit"s nystagmus,, spinning, scanning are symptoms not the actual diagnosis . the head tilt is usually caused by an ear infection .which apparently was treated with the baytril and bicillin. The weight loss could be any disorder including e-cuniculi and . it actually sounds like your rabbit has a systemic problem weakening the immune system and causing multiple infections.
You know that you can buy injectable bicillin at farm and fleet or tractor supply and the vet could supply you with the needles and syringes and lactated ringers to dilute it.

But first you need to know what you are treating

if you posted a picture of your rabbits it might give us a better idea of their weight issues.

I am sure a rabbit could have a throat infection but am not sure why other than the result of a lowered immune system ; I had a rabbit with an esophgeal infection which later affected her breathing.

Your vet treated with panacur ? was that for e-cuniculi or as an anti-parasitic?
When you get the cash your rabbit would benefit greatly by getting a blood panel done. this can tell a lot about the entire body and how it is functioning.

 

[Victoria]

Hi
About early July we have seen the vet (which cost us over $300) and the blood test was done.It proved inconclusive. Since this took all our savings we cannot go to the vet (I am waiting for 2 minor surgeries for myself and cant afford any more ) and since the blood test was done I dont see how they need another one and why since he said they need another blood test within couple of days from the first one. We live in Australia and I am not sure where we can get bicillin etc apart from at the vet's. The vet care here does not look good to me - it is very expensive, just a little syringe of baytril costs about $16, and the blood test about $125.

We had a rat that we also took to the vet this year but it died anyway within weeks of going there (the vet did not see anything wrong). In case of the rat I can see how one can miss it or not be able to treat it - they are so small and fragile. However the prices for vet care are such that it is impossible to keep up any more. I am worried about it but not really sure what to do. My camera is broken so I cant take pictures right now and I am not sure how to transfer pictures from the mobile. Thank you for your advice. I am going to make the decision to take him or not for further tests, it is really difficult.

The blood test was done was normal blood test and it shown that his bone marrow does not produce enough red blood cells. I dont know what does it mean Panel may be this is what we had. I dont know why the vet wanted another test and thought that it would be visible from the first one. The vet wanted to admit him to their clinic and that would run into thousands of dollars which we cannot afford. I hope the rabbits will make it. They first thought that it was E cuniculi but they said they cannot prove it and it is actually unlikely that it is however still gave us Panacur.

 

[Victoria]

They also suspected myxi and calici virus and cancer - it is too many reasons and none of it (apart from cancer which I cant see though) is true. I went with them to an exotics vets' clinic and they specialise in this kind of animals. The other vets in the area are cat and dog mostly vets.
I do trust the vet we saw but I think it is odd to want another expensive test so soon after another one plus no definitive answer, however little I know about veterinarian science I think they should have an idea after one blood test - it can be done with a human. They examined the rabbit but saw nothing wrong too.
I believe you are right about systemic problem. I am not sure what it is, it could be E cuniculi like the first vet we saw thought initially. My gut feeling is that it is (may be that is why the second test to see immune response to e cuniculi).

Poor bunnies. They never been to the vet before and they never been sick, I thought that we were lucky. I thought that they will be healthy since they are only 2 year olds.

 

[Maureen Las]

If the bone marow is not producing enough red blood cells that would cause a lot of issues ..could be cancer .
The titer for e-cuniculi doesn't really help diagnosebecause a rabbit can still be exposed to be it and not have active symptoms so a rabbit that looks well could also have a postive titer.
it sounds like the best that you can do right now is just give him supportive care. Are you sure that he is not in pain at all? If he is not in pain you could just try giving him a stress free environment and a healthy diet and see what happens.
It sound like he is outside ; it might help him if you could bring him inside ; might be more comfortable and less stess.

I do understand the expense of exotic vet care. I have 8 indoor rabbits right now and one of them has cost me a fortune. the others have been relatively well but about 5 of them are getting older and i am feaful of what kind of issues that could bring.

This is how you place photos on this site

you have to transfer photos from your computer to a photo holding site like Photobucket
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=25443&forum_id=66


We'll continue to try to help you with Black and Red (cool names)

 

[Victoria]

Thanks for advice and about the photos but right now my camera is broken and I dont know how to get the photos from my mobile phone into the computer.
I m thinking if it was cancer then why would Red show the same symptoms - weight loss, excessive drinking and peeing, gurgling sound at the back of their throats when drinking or eating moist foods.
They are inside rabbits. they live in their separate cages in our study room. We take them out usually every day or every other day if we are busy.
We try giving them more fresh greens and some veggies, hoping they will put on weight and may be fight this problem.

the rabbits dont look like they are in pain - they eat normal and they are active when out of the cages. They are alert and their eyes look normal and open not half closed (like when Black had tummy ache I could see that he looked different his eyes were closing and he was hiding in the corners).

When I said thin I meant that a rabibt I read in the rabbit care book Rabbits for Dummies and on the internet - they need to feel not bony - but when I touch my rabbits I can feel their backbones and the little bones in it one by one - this is bony. They are not Hymalians so they should be more padded I think.

 

[tonyshuman]

Well, I can feel my guys' back bones if I try, and they're on the heavy edge of the weight scale. I haven't heard of a throat infection before, so I'll let angieluv speak to that. I do think it's likely there's a systemic problem, and since they both have it, I would guess parasites, especially since the Panacur helped.

I don't want to sound rude, but your vet doesn't sound like they know what's going on. It sounds like they're just throwing out the names of bad diseases of rabbits, even when the symptoms don't exactly fit. Myxi starts with eye problems, I think--like runniness and goopiness.

I agree that Black probably had something compromizing his immune system, that led to an opportunistic infection of the ears, causing the tilt and nystagmus. It is possible that it was a result of EC, but I don't think your course of Panacur was enough to treat EC, so I would suspect a pretty strong GI parasite. The antibiotics treated the infection, and the Panacur treated the gut parasite.

Red may have picked this up from Black, and then passed it back to him once Black's course of Panacur was done. The throat thing could be an infection caused by a weakened immune system due to the same internal parasite. I think a strong course of Panacur for both of them would be useful. Sometimes you can get Panacur/Ivermectin at farm supply stores, without a prescription.

Are they still drinking urine, or has that stopped since you switched the bowls back?

 

[Victoria]

Hi
They are drinking the urine both of them, I try to stop them but I am sure they do when I am not there. Dont know what that is about they have been doing it for a while now.
THe Panacur course was about 7 days and it would not be enough to kill anything I think. He did put on weight briefly after taking the meds. I dont think you are rude I think the vets was saying unusual things but this is the best one we have met the rest know even less. This vet is exotics vet and we dont have another one that I know of around here (he is not that close to us either about 1 hour drive). May be I am paranoid with their weights a bit . But I can also feel Blacks hip bones...

 

[tonyshuman]

Hmm. I think stopping the urine drinking would help, because it's so basic. I wish it were simple to do, though.

I don't know what the right course of Panacur would be, but it's at least a month. I worry more about the throat than the weight. Maybe you could do a 7 day course of Panacur for both of them.

 

[Victoria]

I think we should but we have to see a vet first. We dont have any animal pharmacies around here - I never saw any and the pet shops dont sell medications. EG they dont sell the Australian equivalent of Bene Bac (gut flora thing dont remeber if spelling is correct)

 

[Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears]

Victoria wrote:

Thanks for advice and about the photos but right now my camera is broken and I dont know how to get the photos from my mobile phone into the computer.

You can send the photo's to PhotoBucket from your cell phone through text a message. So you don't need to get them to your computer first.

 

[tonyshuman]

I see. What about farm stores? Do they sell medication for livestock? Some people use the sheep formulation of Panacur to deworm their bunnies, and they can get that at a farm supply store, here called Tractor Supply Co.

 

[Victoria]

I am in process of looking for a farm store. We live in the area where they are not any but I think they are in some other areas in our city.