Can someone help me? Prepare to read!

[rabbitlover08]

This will be my first public post here on Rabbits online. I actually found out about the site through doing some research on health of rabbits and some concerns that I have had for my own. Every thread has seemed to be very helpful with some of the questions I've had had in the past.

I have 2 pet rabbits, Drake and Wayne. (Wayne is actually a girl, because I was told she was a boy when I first got her and Drake over a year and a half ago.) it may seem funny but I have gotten used to calling her that and she really loves her name. They are both fixed and are best friends. I'm pretty sure they are Lop/Rex mixed. They are also my best friends and I spend more time with them than with anyone!

I have Questions about both of them and figured this would be a great place to ask for some advice from people with experience and knowledge with rabbits, not just an opinion from one person being the vet I see.

Wayne has always been a little bony. She has an arch in her back almost like she Is hunched back. At one point on her spine towards her neck it is almost a slight U shape. Her shoulder blades can also be felt, depending how she is standing sitting and I'm not sure that is normal..

She also has a patch of fur missing on the bottom of her foot, a circular patch, but doesn't look like sore hocks and hasn't spread within the past few weeks. sometimes she does play on carpet so that may be why because of the friction? I recently put a blanket down to cover it when she is out running around. I know sore hocks spreads quickly though and wanted to do whatever I can to prevent that, keeping the litter clean (I use recycled paper pellets) and I also got her some triple action polysporin, I heard that is safe to use? Their cage has lots of blankets but they always dig them up and prefer a firmer floor for some reason. Sometimes they pee on them too and avoid the litter box. She has always been her happy playful self but I want to make sure there is nothing serious going on.

They both love their pellets and are fed a few handfuls each day (though I'm not sure the exact measurement) I have been feeding them a Walmart brand (Great Value) for around a year or so now. I am considering changing their diet to something more nutritional, if that is not a recommended brand. Would Oxbow be a better choice, or what would be some good suggestions?

She also seems to shake her head at times but I'm not sure that has anything to do with being a little underweight? I have read that parasites can make a rabbit skinnier so I am thinking of getting a fecal sample checked out by my veterinarian. Also, one of their poop habits have been changing on and off, from smaller to larger sized? Is this normal an could it be from just eating less hay and food some days, more than others? They always have access to Timothy & Meadow hay. I have read that it could be a sign of GI stasis, but they have been pooping and eating normally besides that.

I did also want to mention that I found one time in their litter box, a while ago some sticky mucus covered poo of some sort. I think It was an orange/green/yellow/clear color if I can remember correctly. but I only ever noticed that once..


Now about My concerns for Drake.

Drake was diagnosed with "The snuffles" around a year ago. (sneezing, white snot, wiping his face, it really makes me feel so bad for him when he does that because I know he is sick and stressed even more from it) He has been on an off baytril a few times and is usually doing pretty good. I try my best to keep him healthy and try to avoid antibiotics when I can because I realize it can come back worse when antibiotics are stopped. I would really hate to have him on a moderate dose continuously for the rest of his life.. ( I know that can have an affect on health long term, yet to mention expensive but money is not anything I try to think about) I know the snuffles is is very broad term and there are so many underlying factors that can contribute to it's symptoms, stress being a main source.

He was cultured a while back and the vets found "Pantoea Agglomerans" I read a thread on here about that as well which helped give me some useful information.

He does seem to sneeze more when exposed to dustier hay, specifically Oxbow Western Timothy hay. I noticed lately it has been very dusty for some reason . I also realize Oxbow is a major small animal company and the process probably happens quite fast but when I opened the last few bags and went to feed the animals (I always shake the hay at first *to reduce the amount of dust in the hay being fed) it was literally a large cloud of super fine dust that was sent airborne when the hay was moved or the bag was shaken a little, even I was coughing from it! Lately I have been buying a new brand and been spraying it with a water bottle to help reduce the dust floating around and from being inhaled.

He has been sneezing more often lately with a bit of white snot which is definitely not a good sign, and it seems to help when I have the Window open or a steam vaporizer plugged in, to help keep the room humid.

I have been giving him probiotic powder twice daily, vitamin C tablets, Ecichnacea, and a certain kind of health treats from a local pet store, made by pet naturals of Vermont. ( A kind called Immunity with DMG as the active ingredient, another kind called Daily best, a multivitamin supplement with probiotic and prebiotic, and another kind called Calming, with Thiamine, L. Theanine and a Calming Complex ingredient.. )

Has anyone had any experience with these? The directions are to give one per day each, both rabbits have been taking all of these along with the Vitamin C probiotic powder and Ecichnacea drops daily. (I should note Wayne does live with Drake, and doesn't have any similar symptoms.. it would be too hard to separate them at this point and would probably cause additional stress to Drake which could worsen his symptoms, I definitely do not want that!

Both rabbits also live in my bedroom with me. (it is a bit crowded, I know that is nothing good and I am moving soon to an apartment. I'm sure the Change will be a bit stressful on them at first, considering this has been their only home, but once settled should benefit due to more space.

Where I am currently staying (my parents) there is a dog (St. Bernard) and 3 cats.. the rabbits are always curious when they hear commotion and sometimes run out to check what's going on but I think the other animals might cause some stress to them as well, since they are still unsure and don't know them, which I another reason the move should be a good change. (I definitely don't trust one of the cats here, he is always sneaking around)

They do need more exercise IMO and only run around in a small little room to play when their not in their cage, which is 2 levels. That may be something to take into consideration as well, and I plan on getting them out a much as possible before I do move here soon, to an apartment building in the city (so will be hard to take them outside) I'm just so lost about everything and feel so bad and guilty at the same time

The house is also over 100 years old, but I doubt It could be a mold or environmental issue, but is still possible.

I have heard Critical care would be a good idea, also Perfect food berry, I read that is good to give when symptoms arise and can help almost make them disappear.

Again so sorry if you actually took the time to read this all, and all the various topics and related questions, but I have been so stressed and worried about them myself lately that I might soon have the snuffles! Nothing to joke about though.

I may call to get another culture, nasal flush, and possibly X rays, check Drakes teeth etc to make sure it is not a dental issue causing these problems. I Don't think pasteurella was mentioned in the last culture..

Would some type of allergy cause white snot, snuffle related symptoms? It bothers me there is not much research known on this and it is a very confusing topic. I really wish it could be cured
I know this isn't organized the best it could be and may sound ADHD but I really have to stop writing soon or I'm going to have a headache
I just have so much going through my mind about this and really want to keep them happy and healthy as long as I can, and I will do whatever I can.

Overall, they are both healthy, eat lots of vegetables, but do need more exercise and I am aware of what can be causing some stress issues, and what has been as of lately. They are also very smart and know a lot of words and get excited when I talk in certain tones. I am a guy by the way! Even though by this message you may have had the impression I wasn't! Lol.

I will post some pics of them soon to my profile, and look forward to being a member here.

Thanks for any help, and i'm sure Drake and Wayne appreciate this just as much as I do!

 

[squidpop]

I'm sorry this is so long-- but might help you.

I've had two experiences with Snuffles. My first was with an 8 week old rabbit named Daisy. Daisy was only 7 weeks old when i got him. I noticed a squeeky honky sound whenever I picked him up (Breeder said he was a girl so I named him Daisy- much like your Wayne story- turned out he was a boy) anyway, 5 days later he was sneezing a lot- white snot and everything. Seemed feverish. So took him to the vet got Baytril and treated for 10 days and it got better - but then it came back so I got more Baytril and it got better for about 3 days after the second dose- then it got worse. There was so much white snot it caked his front legs. So, I went to another vet- had to drive out of town to a rabbit specialist , and she prescribed Azithromycin/Zithromax. After the 4 day of treating with the Azithromycin he was much better- I continued treatment for 20+ days. He is 2 years old now and has never sneezed again, seems totally cured.

The second experience was when I got Penelope- I got her as a baby and noticed that she always had a squeeky sound in her nose- I could hear the honky squeeky sound whenever she ate pellets- or when I picked her up. I never saw any sneezing or discharge. The breeder said it was because she had a flat face and flat faced rabbits make wheezy squeeky sounds kind of like Persian cats or Pugs, and nothing to worry about. So I didn't worry. Then Penelope got pregnant and had babies. After the babies were about 8 weeks old I noticed one of them made the same sounds as Penelope so I kept him. Then Penelope and her baby both started sneezing and I noticed a dab of white snot sometimes - just a little - under their noses- the symptoms were not as bad as Daisy at all but I was worried. I took them to the my local vet who said he couldn't see anything in their nose or white snot and they didn't sound wheezy when he listened to them breath so he did not want to give them antibiotics— it was like he thought I was imagining it. But at home I would often see one of them sneeze and if I looked at the nose right after the sneeze, I would see a small amount of white snot, which I knew meant there was some kind of infection, even if it was only a small one. So, took my rabbits to a different vet and they wouldn't treat it either because they couldn't see white snot either. So, about three weeks later I started seeing more white snot- I finally got a really good photograph of it and emailed it to my vet -- she saw the snot in the photo and prescribed Azithromycin again. After I treated with the Azithromycin they never had symptoms again. Both Penelope and her baby never sneeze now and I hear no squeeky sounds at all from their noses.
Some people report Azithromycin is hard on their stomachs but all three of my rabbits who were treated with it never had any stomach upset from it.

So, since you have already tried Baytril and it didn't work perhaps my suggestion is try Azithromycin for your snuffles bunny.

Also, I think its good to get a culture but I have read that with some respiratory infections the bacteria responsible are so far up in the sinus cavities that when they do the culture they do not show up. And since rabbits can have several different bacteria in their respiratory systems there is a chance that when they get a culture a bacteria shows up that is not the one that is causing the infection. So, rabbits can sometimes have something like Pasteurella deep in the sinuses and it doesn't show up in the culture.

I'm not sure about your bunny with the bald spot on its hock - If the polysporin is iodine based and the skin isn't broken that's a good safe thing to try. I've read that sometimes sore hocks can be a fungus infection but your rabbit probably doesn't have that or the symptoms would be worse.

 

[rabbitlover08]

Hey not long at all compared to my message. And thanks so much for the information. I will definitely look into that, I have always been a little cautious about giving them different antibiotics because I have heard baytril is probably the safest and most common to use for snuffles, and also the only one approved or certified for rabbits, something along that line..

If Azithromycin/Zithromax does help to almost cure the snuffles, wouldn't it have been publicly known at this point, and wouldn't vets from all over be making this more clear to people with rabbits? Also have you heard any other successful experiences with this or just with your case?

I have always worried that pneumonia could be present but at this point doesn't seem THAT serious, and I know left untreated could make it more possible..

Has anybody ever had any success with not giving antibiotics, keeping your rabbit as healthy and happy as possible when symptoms do develop, giving critical care or other nutrient based supplements to them? Or are antibiotics always something that should be given? I think rabbits always have pasteurella in their system and problems only become noticeable when exposed to stress? I am just trying to think of the worst case scenario if meds were given and it came back worse when stopped, or a period of time shortly after?

I'm going to do a bit of research and call the vet as soon as I can and mention that.

Thanks again squidpop!

 

[squidpop]

Those are all good questions and I would also like to hear from others to find out if they had good experiences with Azithromycin.

Meanwhile, you could read this as an example of someone who knows way more than me who has good things to say about Zithromax (and actually bad things to say about Baytril). It also explains about the use of many other antibiotics in rabbits. It was written by Randy Atkinson who ran a Wildlife refuge in North Carolina and treated domestic rabbits along with wild rabbits, squirrels, raccoons etc... His rescue worked with some of the top Vet specialist in the US and developed new protocols for treating rabbits. (You scroll down to read what Randy says)
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2008/10/Snuffles-9.htm

Many people believe Baytril works best on aerobic bacteria (bacteria close to the surface that needs oxygen to live) - and not on anaerobic bacteria (deep tissue, bacteria doesn't need oxygen to live). So, people don't believe Baytril goes deep enough into tissue to kill stubborn bacteria deep in sinuses causing snuffles. Also, many believe since Baytril is an older drug and the first licensed for rabbits, many bacteria have grown resistant to it. Most Vets do try Baytril as their first course of action because its licensed but move on to other drugs when it doesn't work.

 

[squidpop]

Another thought I have about the "Pantoea Agglomerans" ......
The only information I found about that bacteria was the thread I think you must have read on here- otherwise on the internet there's almost no other information on it in reference to rabbits. Maybe you could private message the person who posted the thread about her rabbit Iszy with Pantoea Agglomerans— "Lissa" and see if anything worked and what she tried.

 

[Mariah]

Hey, nice of you to join the site! Welcome! This site has been very helpful for me.

When I first got kiwi (black & white holland lop doe), she seemed healthy. A couple days of having her at home, she started sneezing. And it wasn't just one sneeze, it was multiple sneezes- 10-15 in a row. At first I saw no discharge, then a tiny bit of white snot. I took her to my vet, & she was started on baytril. I can't remember how long I treated for, but I ended up having to treat twice. I believe it was for about 20 days- the whole treatment.

She still sneezes occasionally now, but no snot. She just turned 3, & I got her when she was 7 weeks aprox.

Also, kiwi was living with my other bun at the time-Citrus (RIP), & he also never picked up, whatever it was that kiwi had. My vet did suggest a culture if the snot came back.

I don't know it this was helpful or not, but just wanted to share my story with you.

Best of luck!

 

[rabbitlover08]

Ok I will see what she says. And the baytril seems to help but only keep the symptoms away while the medication is being given, and a little while after.

One concern I had about the polysporin though.. you mentioned iodine based. The box doesn't say anything about iodine though. Does it have to be iodine based? I made sure it wasn't the pain relief kind because I know lidocaine and some other ingredients are toxic to them.. I haven't gave it yet just to be sure, I've kept a close eye on the bottom of Wayne's foot where the patch of fur is missing but it seems to be okay and is barely noticeable. I only noticed it when she was laying down with her feet stretched out. They're both kind of stubborn too and I hardly ever get to pick them up because they get scared. So it would probably be difficult to put the polysporin on her foot as well.

Thanks again, you've been a great help squidpop

 

[rabbitlover08]

Thanks Mariah I really appreciate that. When you say she was on baytril twice, and 20 days was the whole treatment do you mean 20 days each time she was on the baytril? Just checking

 

[rabbitlover08]

I am from Ontario too! And yes that is similar to Drakes case when he really has symptoms, he will have sneezing fits and sneeze continuously.. I currently have a vaporize steamer in my bedroom at the moment and he hasn't sneezed at all as of the past couple days though! I guess that isn't to say that he is completely fine, I will still look into treating him with antibiotics if I have to.

His last treatment of baytril was for around a month, supposably longer treatments can help to fight off the infection and keep it in remission for a longer period.. unfortunately a few days to a week later he started sneezing again.. It's always off and on with him so I am wondering if it really is the snuffles or possibly just an allergy, he seems to be fine if manage to keep the conditions right and providing him with supplements seems to help.. one week he will sneeze the next he won't as much, I would never let it go untreated though if it was a bad case of symptoms.. If snuffles really is contagious, wouldn't Wayne have similar symptoms? Maybe her immune system is just a little more effective at fighting off any stress or bacteria/infection?

Another thing, the vet I have been seeing lately also works with larger animals and horses, she prescribed Drake baytril last time and said it was stronger and more concentrated, so I only had to give him 03 mL twice daily (every 12 hours) I still have the bottle with some left over from the last treatment, it says 50 mg/ML Baytril/Ribena solution.

I am aware baytril can be injected I think for larger animals, so could this have been the injectable kind? I heard it can be taken orally too.. If so it is still as effective for rabbits as regular baytril, possibly being the injectable kind normally given to horses and larger animals?

 

[Leopold_Ruby]

Can your vet talk to you about a lifr long dose of antibiotics? I have a cat with chronic upper resp issues due to calici virus.
The only thing that kept him breathing a bit clearer were puffers and treatments
Of antibiotics (monthly).
Once hid quality of life drastically declined we had to have him PTS at 6ys ;(

 

[Leopold_Ruby]

Also look up cerenia. No idea if rabbits cam have it but it helped us

 

[squidpop]

I couldn't find any information on lidocaine and rabbits but something came up about how you should not use it on cats - so I wouldn't use the polysporin if it has that ingredient. I like manuka honey as an antibacterial treatment for wounds or scrapes, because it isn't at all toxic and there have been some good studies on animals and humans that show it helps wounds heal really fast. A lot of people on this forum have used it to pack abscesses with- as prescribed by their Vets.

 

[JBun]

I agree that if the baytril doesn't seem to be keeping the URI under control, a different antibiotic may be needed. Others have had success with the azithromycin, but you just need to be aware that some rabbits react badly to it and it can cause severe digestive problems for them. But it does seem to be a very effective antibiotic for infections in rabbits.

Sneezing and clear discharge can sometimes be due to environmental sensitivities, but if you are seeing white or colored discharge, that indicates a bacterial infection. And yes, dental issues can sometimes be a cause. So head xrays may be a good idea, especially if you are having difficulty getting the infection to clear up.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respiratory/Bacterial/URI.htm

For your other rabbits back issues, that would really require a vet taking xrays to determine if something is going on there and if it can be treated. As for her being boney, that could be due to a health issue or her diet.
http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/weightloss.shtml
If she is shaking her head a lot, that can be due to ear mites, ear infection, etc, so if this isn't something that your vet has checked yet, then you will want to have that done right away. For the sore hocks, a bald patch on a rabbits foot doesn't necessarily mean it has developed sore hocks. Does the area look sore, red, and inflamed at all, or is there any type of open wound there? Is it calloused at all? If it's not sore it is actually better to not be applying anything on the area as this could soften the skin and make it prone to developing problems. If it is just starting to look a bit sore but isn't really inflamed at all, having a soft flooring surface can help.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Skin_diseases/Mechanical/Pod/Podo.htm

Can you describe the poop problem a bit more? Are they usually a uniform size and you start seeing much smaller ones, or are you always seeing very large and very small ones in the same day, and are any oblong shaped? Mucous covered poop can indicate a digestive issue, but since it only happened once, may just have been a one off thing. Or could possibly have to do with Wayne's weight issues if it came from her and if the odd shaped poop is coming from her. It might be a really good idea to at least have her checked over by your vet. Have her ears checked and get a fecal sample tested because of her weight issues and the strange poop you've been seeing.

 

[rabbitlover08]

Thanks guys. Cerenia does seem to be safe for rabbits, I noticed it is helpful for digestive issues such as GI stasis?

I would prefer not to give a life long dose, because I know that is not healthy for any animal. I have been using Echinacea and that seems to help, as well as probiotic and immune system treats, trying to keep them as happy and healthy as possible, unlimited hay water, fresh air and a steamer. I would try with different antibiotics to see if that does help, like squidpop and Jbun mentioned, but a life long treatment of baytril etc would definitely be a last resort.

And the polysporin doesn't have lidocaine, but doesn't say anything about being iodine based. That should still be ok?

The spot on Wayne's foot does seem to be a bit calloused, maybe a little red and tougher looking skin.. is that something to worry about? It hasn't spread or gotten worse as sore hocks can since I noticed it but want to be sure it is nothing serious. As I mentioned in my first post, it may have not stood out due to the message being so long, but they have been playing and running around on carpet so maybe that could be the reason why, almost like a rug burn type of sore? It doesn't seem to bother her at all but I know rabbits are good at hiding pain and health issues..

Jbun, when you mention the azithromycin can cause severe digestive problems is It something that can be very severe, potentially life threatening or cause other health issues issues?

I would be open to try that and Zithromax as squidpop suggested at first but really don't want to take any serious risks! Especially if I can control his symptoms naturally with supplements, and try to limit any possible stress which may keep everything under control.. I've heard Exhinacea and a product called Perfect Food Berry (which I also noticed on a thread here) are great at helping when symptoms appear, almost 'curing' the infection.

Also could a bacterial infection (white discharge) be related to environmental factors and stressor, or would that only be a clear discharge? I know white discharge is a common sign of pasteurella..

Would any parasite show up in a fecal sample, for Wayne's case of being boney? Also she doesn't shake her head that often but I do notice it once or twice a day or so, sometimes I see Drake scratching deep in his ears too so maybe ear mites are a possibility.. I've heard you can see them when you look into a rabbits ear though, almost looks like dry skin/dandruff am I right?

It is hard to tell with the poops because they both live and poop in the same litter box. 90% of the time they seem regular shaped but I will see the odd really small poop, sometimes odd shaped.. other times they are seen more often.

Again thanks for the links and detailed information everyone, very helpful to have more opinions and advice on this!

 

[rabbitlover08]

And they eat vegetables & herbs twice a day!

 

[squidpop]

Sorry, I keep harping on the Zithromax- but my three rabbits didn't get sick on it and there is someone else on another forum that is treating a very, very bad dental abscess and her rabbit is almost better and its been on Zithromax the whole time - 7-8 weeks— her rabbits story is here. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?415173-Nena-s-jaw-tooth-root-abscess

I do know there was someone on this forum, however, that did report their rabbit having stomach problems after Zithromax though- so I guess with any antibiotic some rabbits may not tolerate as well as others. I think before giving any antibiotic make sure your rabbit is eating lots of hay and give some bene-bac (probiotics) everyday while giving the anti-biotics.

 

[rabbitlover08]

Thanks. I read the articles and I'll definitely look into Zithromax. One other concern I have though..

If the vaporizer steamer unit I have been using in the room my rabbits are in is seeming to help (I've noticed almost no sneezing at all since using this) does that mean everything is ok? Is it keeping the bacteria away/putting it into a remission like state, or just masking the symptoms, and I should still look into meds? If it gets worse?

Also, I think I mentioned this before but just want to be sure on this. When a rabbit develops symptoms can they be controlled by limiting as much stressors, using supplements etc and a steamer like I have been and possibly stop the symptoms, for an alternative to medicating?

Thanks again everyone,

 

[rabbitlover08]

And would the polysporin be safe to use not being iodine based if anyone knows? And also when Jbun mentioned azithromycin can cause severe digestive issues, is that something I should be concerned about?

Would just Zithromax be fine or should the two be combined?

And would a white discharge be from just a bacterial infection, or could it be related to stress and environmental issues such as an allergy or would that discharge only be clear? Sometimes Wayne's nose is a little moist but more of a clear discharge..

Just want to be sure on all of this, any other information and advice would be great!

 

[squidpop]

Zithromax is Azithromycin, they are the same thing. Zithromax is the brand name of the Azithromycin.

I think all antibiotics have some risk that individual rabbits might have some gastric upset, I think you just have to watch poos closely and curb the treatment if its causing gastric upset. My rabbits were fine on the Azithromycin though. I think feeding lots of hay and good food before giving the antibiotic and giving some bene-bac along might help.

Maybe for the bald spot post a second thread and ask about what to put on bald spot on rabbits feet and see if polysporin is ok or if something is better.

 

[rabbitlover08]

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks.

And I was just curious how you mentioned it should be safe if iodine based, because the box says nothing about iodine.

Waiting for a call back from the vets to hopefully get all this covered. In the meantime, does anyone have any opinions about keeping symptoms controlled when they arise without using meds, limiting stress using supplements etc? I'm guessing the vaporizer is just helping the symptoms temporarily, but not actually controlling the bacteria or putting it into remission..