Zoe update: the roller-coaster...

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Jenk

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gmas rabbit wrote:
Okay if you ask about the B vitamin shot, as shots will not irritate the gut as bad as actually giving B vitamin supplement, why not ask about the cortisone injection at the same time. If takes the inflation out of the gut. Long term over several years it breaks down the cartilage and bones a bit but you are not looking at 5-10 years of injections. If muscous is a problem in her case childrens probiotics containing several different Lactobacillus and bifdobacterium should help. Part of the problem with colitius is the mucous, which is the antimune part of the disease.
I will ask about both Vit. B and Cortisone injections, as well as about more enemas.

Honestly, though, everyone needs to keep in mind that we're talking about megacolon; that means that Zoe's digestive tract--at least a portion of it, likely the colon--has stopped working. If that's the case, all the treatment in the world means nothing. :(
 

Maureen Las

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The problem here is that you don't know if the mass is an accumulation of matter in the colon or a tumor and not knowing that makes it very difficult to treat.
If the mass is a tumor all of this is hopeless and you would know what to do
If you could go to a vet who could perform an ultrasound it would make everything clearer..possibly your vet could suggest a colleague who has ultrasound equipment for a 1 time appointment

I did read on Etherbun once about someone using extra light virgin olive oil to soften an intestinal mass; the theory behind this was that it would not be harmful like petroleum because it would not cause the intestinal contents to dry out

I actually went out and bought a bottle of extra light virgin olive oil and thought I might give it a try sometime when I had a bun in stasis but I never had the courage to use it.

If I was to give olive oil I would give only a small amount initially and then increase it if nothing adverse happened.

I would not want to give repeated enemas to a rabbit; seems so stressful :(


I have no idea why she is urinating all over ??? Whatever... you have your hands full and more....:(:pray:

 

Jenk

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angieluv wrote:
The problem here is that you don't know if the mass is an accumulation of matter in the colon or a tumor and not knowing that makes it very difficult to treat.
If the mass is a tumor all of this is hopeless and you would know what to do
If you could go to a vet who could perform an ultrasound it would make everything clearer..possibly your vet could suggest a colleague who has ultrasound equipment for a 1 time appointment.
The only place I know of that has an ultrasound machine and is trained to operate it on a rabbit is Animal 911 in Skokie. (I only specify it because you may have heard of it.) I just don't know if we want to put Zoe through the car ride to have it done. (It's an hour-long drive to get there.)

I even called Ness Exotic Wellness Center and learned that they don't have an ultrasound; they, too, call in someone to perform an ultrasound; that person takes 7-10 days' to fit NEWC into her schedule, on average. There's also a VCA hospital in Aurora, but that's another lengthy car ride for Zoe. :(

Our vet has someone come to her clinic on certain days of the month; I don't recall if she said the woman knows how to perform an ultrasound on rabbits. She may only deal with cats and dogs.

I did read on Etherbun once about someone using extra light virgin olive oil to soften an intestinal mass; the theory behind this was that it would not be harmful like petroleum because it would not cause the intestinal contents to dry out.
Is it a proven fact that petroleum causes the intestinal contents to dry out? I ask because one of the vets at the clinic I go to gave Zoe one dose (likely 1 mL) of Laxatone without my knowledge. She told me after the fact. Admittedly, I was freaked out by it, figuring that it could upset Zoe's gut in a few ways. (It also includes several sugars, which aren't good for a megacolon bun.)

Of course, nothing is ever clear-cut. Zoe underwent anesthesia on 7/19 to have a growth removed from the inside of her left ear. When she returned six days' later for a post-up follow-up, the vet and I simultaneously discovered a clean cut on Zoe's leg. (There was no visible blood, so I'd not been alerted to the issue.) So I'll never know if it's the effect of anesthesia, the cut, or the Laxatone causes Zoe's woes. Maybe it's all three.

If I was to give olive oil I would give only a small amount initially and then increase it if nothing adverse happened.
I don't know if I have the courage to use it, either--or at least not before I call the vet's office with an update.

I would not want to give repeated enemas to a rabbit; seems so stressful.
I don't know that I really have a choice. Zoe's gut typically turns bone-dry on a "normal" day; her current issue is the worst I have ever seen. She's been pumped full of IV fluids, sub-Q fluids, oral fluids--and it seems that a blockage still exists. At least, that's how it appears. True, without an ultrasound, we won't know exactly.
 

SnowyShiloh

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Jen, I know how many things you have to consider since Zoe's so different and you're between a rock and a hard place. But I think trying to feed her some pumpkin would be good, perhaps better than trying another enema. Canned pumpkin has only 1 gram of sugar per ounce and I doubt you'd give her more than a tablespoon or two. I looked up pineapple and it has 4 grams of sugar per ounce so it certainly has less sugar than fruit.

It's up to you of course.
 

Jenk

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SnowyShiloh wrote:
Jen, I know how many things you have to consider since Zoe's so different and you're between a rock and a hard place. But I think trying to feed her some pumpkin would be good, perhaps better than trying another enema. Canned pumpkin has only 1 gram of sugar per ounce and I doubt you'd give her more than a tablespoon or two. I looked up pineapple and it has 4 grams of sugar per ounce so it certainly has less sugar than fruit.

It's up to you of course.
You raise a good point, but I don't know if I'll be able to coax her to eat it. And I say that because she's refusing her beloved parsley this morning. :(

I'm calling the vet's office right now; the vet isn't in until around 8-8:30 am.

I know the ultrasound tech. who visits my vet's office on a rotating schedule is supposed to be in today. But I think she only works with cats and dogs--and she's likely to be booked up. My other option is to drive Zoe an hour away to have it done; I'm not certain I want to put her through the stress of such a drive, considering her condition.
 

Jenk

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Gosh, I wish we had more time to edit our posts. *sigh*

Zoe now has eaten more than half of the parsley I set down for her this morning. While that seems like a good thing, she's still not passing anything. And I can see how bloated her gut is.


Jenk
 

Jenk

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SnowyShiloh wrote:
Poor Zozo :( Did you get ahold of the vet?
No, I called when the vet clinic opened, which is earlier than when the vet gets in for appointments. I'm hopeful that she'll call me by 9 am. A lot probably depends on how crazy-busy the office is when she gets in, though.

I did tell the receptionist that Zoe is not doing well and that she's only passed three fecals since returning home on Saturday.
 

Jenk

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The vet called at 8:45 am and said her ultrasound guy can usually come out the same day that she calls him; she said she'd call him as soon as we got off the phone. If I don't hear from her by 10 am, I'm to call her back.

Unfortunately, the ultrasound guy doesn't usually work with exotics. But she assured me he'd be able to determine the size/placement of the mass. I'm going to ask the vet if she can view the part of the ultrasound that involves the digestive contents; I need to know if Zoe's still dealing with a blockage that may be helped with enemas.


Jenk


 

SnowyShiloh

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Well, that's good at least. I know nothing about ultrasounds of course, but wouldn't a tumor vs feces look the same in a rabbit as in a cat?
 

Jenk

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SnowyShiloh wrote:
Well, that's good at least. I know nothing about ultrasounds of course, but wouldn't a tumor vs feces look the same in a rabbit as in a cat?
I'm not certain. The biggest issue would be his unfamiliarity with the rabbit digestive system. But, still, he should be able to define it based it it not being the kidneys, liver, or bladder.

I just hope to finally get a definitive answer, regardless of what it points to.


Jenk
 

Jenk

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The vet who performs the ultrasound tests at my vet's office is on vacation this week. Of all the crummy luck...

I'm still reluctant to make Zoe undergo an hour-long (or more) drive to visit a strange place in order to have an ultrasound done.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, I dropped her off at my vet's office this morning. (My vet's schedule is full; she can more easily inspect Zoe in between her other appointments. I would've taken an office appt. otherwise.) She will palpate Zoe, take her temp., and inspect the healing wound on her leg. She'll also give Zoe injectable meds.--well, depending on what palpation tells her. She'll also run in-house blood work to check liver and kidney values.

I suppose the only reason she'd even consider yet another x-ray is if she feels what seems to be impacted fecal material.

Jenk
 

gmas rabbit

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I understand your frustration with the situation, vets on holidays, the roller coaster and second guessing if you are putting her through stress for nothing. You are far from indifferent, just doing what you feel is best and easiest on Zoe. I know that we all are suggesting different things that I hope is not coming across as a critism to your treatment or strategy. We are just trying to bounce ideas off you not a critism but in case something comes up that possibly wasn't thought of (although you have had years of this and most of us not ) so maybe we are just trying to make ourselves useful in you time of need, I personally have never had to deal with melacolon issues, fur blockage and statis, but nothing like what you and Zoe are dealing with. I think that you are the most loving incredible bunny mom, I just wish that things were different for both you and Zoe.
 

Jenk

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gmas rabbit wrote:
You are far from indifferent, just doing what you feel is best and easiest on Zoe. I know that we all are suggesting different things that I hope is not coming across as a critism to your treatment or strategy. We are just trying to bounce ideas off you not a critism but in case something comes up that possibly wasn't thought of (although you have had years of this and most of us not ) so maybe we are just trying to make ourselves useful in you time of need, I personally have never had to deal with melacolon issues, fur blockage and statis, but nothing like what you and Zoe are dealing with. I think that you are the most loving incredible bunny mom, I just wish that things were different for both you and Zoe.
Thank you, gmas. I don't as though I'm being criticized by anyone, honest. I feel supported more than anything. :hug2:

Per the vet, Zoe's liver/kidney values are still relatively normal. (One of her liver values has always been a bit "off," but it's the same as the last liver/kidney check.) Her temp. is 102-deg. F. Both vets in the practice palpated her and felt a "long tube" of softened fecal material in the colon and rectum. The vet gave Zoe another enema (and will give a second one this evening).

I'm having a major guilt trip; Zoe's undergone quite a bit of anesthesia for tooth trims and, most recently, to have a growth removed from her ear. I'm left to wonder if she wouldn't be in this condition--or at least not yet--if I'd not gone along with the vet's recommended tooth-trim schedule. (Her motivation was in the right place; she likes to do checks/trims further and further apart to see how long the bun can go before spurs cause a problem.) I could see that the anesthesia was making it harder for Zoe to bounce back each time, but I never thought it would come to this situation. :cry2

Would I be selfish to bring Zoe home to try to have one more night with her? After the fecal mush she passed early Saturday, she only passed three more fecals; I know she's blocked and uncomfy. (I ashamedly admit that I don't think the enemas and Lactulose, which the vet will try on Zoe today, will work.) But I'm thinking of asking to have Zoe given either a higher dose of Metacam or even Torbutrol to help ease her pain for the evening.

Jenk
 

gmas rabbit

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You do what you think is right, make her as pain free as possible. Did you ask about the B vitamins and cortosone. The cortisone is an anti-inflamatory so may relieve some of the gas. Gosh I feel so bad for you, you are really in a hopeless situation, of trying to fiqure out what is best for your little girl. Go with you insitincts.
 

Nancy McClelland

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You have to do what feels right to you. I'm happiest when the post I make to the bridge includes,"they passed at home". Hate having to make that last trip to the vet more than anything I've done in my life. It's natural to want to have your loved one close, especially at the end. :pray:
 

Jenk

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Nancy McClelland wrote:
You have to do what feels right to you. I'm happiest when the post I make to the bridge includes,"they passed at home". Hate having to make that last trip to the vet more than anything I've done in my life. It's natural to want to have your loved one close, especially at the end. :pray:
If Zoe doesn't pass anything by 12 pm tomorrow, I won't have the option of allowing her to pass at home. She is so blocked and "pressurized" that she's leaking urine everywhere. And due to where the ingesta material is built up, she's a candidate for intestinal rupture--hence the 12 pm deadline.
 

gmas rabbit

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Jenk are prayers are with you, you do what is right for Zoe. When quality of life is no longer good, quantity is no longer important. What ever you decide we are with you, wish we could do more
 

Jenk

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gmas rabbit wrote:
Jenk are prayers are with you, you do what is right for Zoe. When quality of life is no longer good, quantity is no longer important. What ever you decide we are with you, wish we could do more
:hug: Thank you, gmas. This bun-loving community really is amazing; I couldn't ask for better.


Jenk
 

Bunnylova4eva

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Praying for you!
just enjoy your time with Zoe, get lots of pictures to remember her by, just in case.
But yep, just do what rights for her. No one can tell you when is right. You'll know when and what to do by yourself. No one will need to tell you. The vet told me to put my bun down a week before I did and I couldn't have handled it if I' ddone it when recomended. I knew that the bunny at that point wasn't as bad off as she looked in the office. You know Zoe better than anyone else ever could.
 
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