Z...Seizures? HELP!

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by bunnybunbunb, Mar 30, 2009.

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  1. Mar 30, 2009 #1

    bunnybunbunb

    bunnybunbunb

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    I was just out at the rabbits. The last 2 weeks I have noticed Z stays in his wooden box a lot. It is just big enough for him to fit, Chess out grew it. Anyway, I just thought everything was fine because the time he spent out of it nothing bad ever happened, he ate, drank, hopped and even acted normal durring play time. I have been sick and the last 3 days I have not been able to spend any real time with any of my animals, feed, water, clean, get back into rest/recover mode has been my days.

    Today I go out to spend some time with them and right away something seems wrong. Z is in his box but he ALWAYS greets me, he did not. He was like he was a sleep. So I opened the door, still no responce, and pat him a bit and he finely comes around. He hops out and munches a bit on his pellets. I get him out and he seems fine. So I go around and check everyone, hand out some hay and sit down to goof around a little with some wood. Z starts going in circles, I think "Oh god, do not tell me he has OCD." but then he stops and to my horror he starts going back and forth with his head. Not like a normal scan, it was faster and not focused. As it is happening his head and front body starts moving toward is butt, it gets so far that he must spin. As soon as he stops it all starts again and he bends to where he has to spin. This happened 3-4 times till he jumped into his box. Now Iunderstand, he can not spin in his box so that is why he stays there.

    I am totally freaking. Is it seizures? Nueralogic? He got sick right after I got him just over a month ago. It seemed like a normal stress induced case and was cleared up within a week however it took him longer to get back to healthy body condition. Now I am wondering if it was a sign or a trigger? He has a little mucas around his nose that I noted before the spinning.

    I will be taking him in later, I am currently at work. I can run to the house around 1 or so and I will take him and set him up in my room so he is away from Mousse and Becca. If it is caused my pastrunella or something I do not want them catching it. Chess, Almond and Burk who are housed near him are showing no signs.

    The one and only vet around that will do rabbits is a bit weird, he does not like giving them medicine or running any "unneeded" test. This is why I am currently on my own. If I can find what it is and see if there is anything I can give to help then I will call him to see if he will give me the medicine I need. He makes me mad at his ignorance but there is nothing else I can do at the moment.

    Should I give him any metacam? I have loads left over from Becca.

    Please help, I will go searching on google. The page for seizures on here is not working anymore.
     
  2. Mar 30, 2009 #2

    bunnybunbunb

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    "PSYCHOMOTOR SEIZURES
    This type of seizure is predominantly behavioral with the animal involuntarily howling, snapping, circling, etc. The abnormal behavior may be followed by a generalized seizure."

    Oh god :cry:
     
  3. Mar 30, 2009 #3

    Maureen Las

    Maureen Las

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    First of all this may not be a seizure at all but nystagmus (which is dizziness or a whirling sensation) . This often happens when a bun has an inner ear infection. once the inner ear is affected the bun starts to exhibit neurological symptoms.

    This is terrible experience as the bun is not able to stabilize himself . if you can put him in a carrier or a basket with rolled towels supporting him it will help him feel more secure.
    This is a situation where a non experienced vet will be a waste of money and time. your bun needs a full exam by a vet that knows what to look for.
    prepare to travel if necessary

    http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11604&forum_id=9

    You do not have to have head tilt to have vestibular disease
    http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=29507&forum_id=10

    Another possibility is ecunculi but there is no point in looking for that until the ear infection is ruled out
     
  4. Mar 30, 2009 #4

    tonyshuman

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    Maureen, I thought nystagmus was movement of the eyes only, not the head as well?

    This does sound a bit like a seizure or very vigorous head shaking that is probably neurological in origin. It could be due to ear infection causing balance and proprioception (how we sense which way gravity is pulling us) issues.

    I have a list of things that require ASAP vet care, and seizures are on that list near the top. You do not want to mess with that on your own. The things that can cause seizures are typically all very serious and cannot be treated with home remedies. The best thing for Z would be to put him in a carrier with the rolled towels, put a towel on top to keep it dark and calm, and take him to the best rabbit vet you can find. Best of luck and sorry we can't be more help.
     
  5. Mar 30, 2009 #5

    pamnock

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    Nystagmusis involuntary movement of the eyes. The direction/rotation of the eye movement can sometimes indicate the type of neurological dysfunction.

    Pam
     
  6. Mar 30, 2009 #6

    Maureen Las

    Maureen Las

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    tonyshuman wrote:
    I meant vertigo

    Any news???
     
  7. Mar 31, 2009 #7

    bunnybunbunb

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    Nystagmus... I will be looking that up because his eyes ARE moving constantly to the right, the same way his head then body moves.

    He is inside and spent some time in the floor to see <b>everything</b> that was going on. When he is curious and looking/moving about the eye and head movment gets pretty bad and he spins however when he is calm, laying down, being held, being petted or in his box his eyes does the movement but not bad and he can keep control of his head.Mom said she saw his nose was doing an odd twitch every few up and downs but I did not see it. On his right shoulder blade if you put your finger there you can feel a strum like motion in what feels like a vein. His heart was going a bit fast but it was after one of his spinning moments.

    I swear, when I first went out nothing was going on but me having to "wake" him up. He got up after a bit of rubbing, hopped out of te box, went and ate a little,I got him out and gave him a going over and sit with him for a few minutes petting him, put him back and he hoped in his box. There was nofast eye or head movement.Mom and I talked a bit about it and we think he may had just had a seizure and was in the "down time" afterward when I had to get him up? She said as far as she knew it was very possible that it took that hour of being "fine" afterward before the damage of the seizure started.

    I have had two rabbits who 2-3 times each I found them almost paralyzed. It turns out it was pinched nerves in their back, all I had to do was do a bit of stretching and they where normal. I doubt this is anything like it but it is possible for something seemingly horrible to be nothing as bad, right? :nerves1

    I swear, if there was any vet what-so-ever that would do anything I <b>would</b> take him! I have afew hundred dollars put back incase of an emergency but anyone that saw what I went through with the only "rabbit vet" around you know he is scared of treating them. We where planning a trip to lexington sometime soon, I will look into getting a vet there to see him. It is a very long trip but if we are going there anyway mom will not mind.

    I will ge a video of what he is doing if I can ever find me camera. Currently he is resting in his box with control of his head.
     
  8. Mar 31, 2009 #8

    bunnybunbunb

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    Ok, headtilt. I hoped I would never have to deal with this but looks like I am. It is all the right signs.
     
  9. Mar 31, 2009 #9

    bunnybunbunb

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    Looks like treatmet is antibiotic, antiparasitic, ivermec? and metacam(optional) to help with loosing balance or something? I need to get probiotics too. If anyone is willing to help with dosages, one of the sites I read said to give a higher than normal dose of bicillin, I would be in much gratitude! I am going to weight him now.
     
  10. Mar 31, 2009 #10

    Maureen Las

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    As soon as you post a video I will pm Randy

     
  11. Mar 31, 2009 #11

    bunnybunbunb

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    They are uploading now, I had to use Cindy's camera so the files are much bigger. I got one of him in his box eating and fine, one right after I got him out and acting fine and then right after when he started spinning. Oh and the one of him in his box shows his eyes moving however it is slower than when he is not relaxed.
     
  12. Mar 31, 2009 #12

    tonyshuman

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    For probiotics get Bene-Bac (made for dogs) or Probios (made for horses). I will post more later.
     
  13. Mar 31, 2009 #13

    anneq

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    Will say a little prayer for you and the bun...our ND had head-tilt (had NO idea what it was)...he recovered within 10 days but always had a bit of a 'tilt' but it was not disabling to him. It's very frightening to see - I honestly thought he was going to die - I was a novice rabbit owner and had never heard of this condition.
    G'luck to you and the bun.
     
  14. Mar 31, 2009 #14

    bunnybunbunb

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  15. Mar 31, 2009 #15

    bunnybunbunb

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    The breeder he came from has kindly told me she will send me some Bene-bac! She said it will be in the mail before she goes to work tomarrow so it should be here the next day as she is roughly an hour away.

    I let her know about it, she as never heard of it. I have kne of Wry Neck for years, amazed me she did not know.

    http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk217/samcountrybunny/?action=view&current=SANY1877.flv

    I will get the video of him in the box up as soon as it is done loading.
     
  16. Mar 31, 2009 #16

    Maureen Las

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    I just pmd Randy but because of the time of year I know that he is overwhelmed with work including teaching.

    I do not feel comfortable telling you a home treatment regime when we don't know what we are treating and we are not vets
    let's give it some time and see ifRandy responds.
    I am fairly sure that he is going to want the rabbit's ears looked at ..do you think the vet in your town has the ability to determine if a rabbit has an ear infection?

    If he doesn't have an ear infection it may be possible to treat for EC just to see if there is a response to the fenbendazole but even then we are not in the position to be making these determinations


     
  17. Mar 31, 2009 #17

    ra7751

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    Hi,

    I think what your rabbit is presenting is known as "Positional Nystagmus" secondary to a possible infection in the ear and/or brain stem. I have one in my rescue. She initially had an ear infection that was not properly treated and it escalated and invaded her brain stem. She is deaf and almost totally blind. She actually pulls her head back and scans. She can flat spin with the best rodeo bull in the world. She does quite well in her own house but when she is in unfamiliar territoty.....she spins. The spin is usually to the side of the infection.....in your bun's case, the problem would seem to be on the right side.

    If this is a serious infection as it appears....I suggest getting this rabbit to a rabbit savvy vet as quickly as possible. Since this presentation usually means the infection has invaded the brain....prompt and aggressive attention is required....Time is everything. This can be one of those difficult infections that is located in an area that is protected by the blood/brain barrier. This makes getting drugs in there quite a challenge. I prefer using a drug called Chloramphenicol. It is quite safe (as relative to any other treatment) and very effective against a wide spectrum of bacteria. This drugcarriessome possible health concerns for the humans that cmoe in contact with it. Metacam might be of help since if this is an infection, there will be inflammation. Keep in mind that Metacam is not a totally safe drug and is very rough on the liver and kidneys especially ina dehydrated animal. It has to be properly dosed and should not be used long term unless under the supervision of a skilled vet. Unless she has ear mites, the use of Ivermectin would not be indicated. Many have alleged that Ivermectin is effective against EC. Medically impossible.

    I suspect that your rabbit needs skilled vet attending her immediately.

    Randy
     
  18. Mar 31, 2009 #18

    Maureen Las

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    I really feel sad about this

    Is there any possible way that you can get this rabbit to Lexington?

    Sounds serious...:(
     
  19. Mar 31, 2009 #19

    bunnybunbunb

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    I had a huge thing wrote out and a pop-up changed the page.

    There is no way I can get him to lexington, mom is not willing to drive 3 hours one way unless she is already heading there. She wants to go this month for her birthday but whether she decides to go next week or the last of the month I do not know.

    He is acting so much better! I gave him a dose of metacam and bicillin, 15 minutes later he went to sleep. After about 2 hours he got up and was all over. He was playing with the hangy toy, checking everything in his cage out. Yes, he was out of his box and not spinning! His head is now tilted to about 1:00-2:00, it was not before, however, his head is only going back and forth about half an inch slowly and part of the time not doing it at all. Two times when I checked on him his eyes were not moving either. When I gave him pellets he ran to the bowl and went to town like he had not ate in a week. He is much happier. Mom thinks it is the Bicillin already working however I think it is the Metacam.

    After about an hour awake he layed down and went back to sleep. Sleep is good, the body heals while sleeping so as much asleep as possible is best, in my opinion.

    I will see if Adam's carries and will perscribe Chloramphenicol. I know Bicillin/Penicillin can only be gave for around2 weeks every 2-3 days so I know he will need something more. Would someone be willing to call and talk some sence into this vet, he is lacking a few quarters :twitch::pssd:
     
  20. Mar 31, 2009 #20

    ra7751

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    Couple of quick comments. If his condition has improved, I agree with you....it's probably the Metacam which means there is swelling. Just keep in mind that Metacam must be dosed properly and itcan damage the liver and kidneys. And there is no rule that you can't use Penicillin for a given amount of time. In some abscesses, I have dosed Penicillin every day for weeks. I use a specific version of Penicillin that contains both Procaine and Benzathine. The possible issue with using Penicillin is....thesuspected infection is not sensitive to Pen and if the infection has crossed the blood/brain barrier....I don't think Penicillin can penetrate that barrier. Chloramphenicol can pass the barrier.

    And I have no problem consulting with a vet. Do it all the time. I even treat animals for some vets. Since I am not a vet, some vets will not (or are prohibited by practice rules) talk to me. If they are, the must initiate the contact with me (legal issue) and it must be where I can verify the person I am talking with is a licensed doctor. And, of course, they must be aware that I am not a vet. But I would have no problem talking any medical professional thru diagnosis and treatment.

    Randy
     

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