Worried about Scone...

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Fynnagin wrote:
If you can set him in a box or carrier with the top off it might make it easier. Good luck!!

I tried that with Luna... it only worked once or twice before she figured out that there was nothing really keeping her in. I also tried the burrito once... Luna fussed and the towel jammed the needle furtherin causing the site to bleed. Was not a good experience for either of us. It might go better for you if Scone is used to being burritoed....

Mike, do you have a top-load carrier? That might help keep Scone confined while giving you access to his back area. I used a cage/kennel that I could makesmall enough for Luna to fit and confine her. It usually went better because I had one hand to control the needle and one hand to keep her calm. I think Amy27 came across a vet tech in training who helped her give the sub-q's to Chase.

I don't know what else to suggest unless you have a nurse or a close friend nearby to help with the proceedure. It is very important for you to get the full amounts in because you don't want his kidneys to shut down.Ijust wonder if adrip-bag would be better than a push. Wish I was there to help....

myheart
 
You could always try the "football hold". I had to do that with Toby. I would get him relaxed on the table (on a towel), then put his nose/face into the bend of my elbow, and administer them that way. It takes a bit of practice, but it could work. An extra set of hands might be helpful! ;)
 
kherrmann3 wrote:
You could always try the "football hold". I had to do that with Toby. I would get him relaxed on the table (on a towel), then put his nose/face into the bend of my elbow, and administer them that way. It takes a bit of practice, but it could work. An extra set of hands might be helpful! ;)
this method works well but takes some practice
 
I agree that the football hold and an open-topped carrier might be your best options. It does sound like a lot of fluid, but it's really a small amount compared to their total body water content. Such a stressful experience--I think attitude is very important--the less scared and worried you are about it, the less stressed the bunny will be, just like with cutting nails. Good luck!
 
kherrmann3 wrote:
You could always try the "football hold". I had to do that with Toby. I would get him relaxed on the table (on a towel), then put his nose/face into the bend of my elbow, and administer them that way. It takes a bit of practice, but it could work. An extra set of hands might be helpful! ;)
Unfortunately, the extra set of hands isn't an option. It's just Scone and me.

I gave him his first Adequan shot this morning, and I used the "football hold", more or less as described. It worked well, albeit after about 20 minutes of putting Scone back on the towel on the table, petting him, picking him off my shoulders, putting him back on the towel, petting him, having him scrabble at my sweatshirt, petting him, him kissing my nose, petting him... and finally he settled down and I got the shot in.

No luck on the sub-q fluids yet. Someone on another board said that she had had good luck (on vet's recommendation) in hydrating a bun who wouldn't tolerate sub-q's by giving him cream soda. It sounded sort of odd, but I'll try anything. I gave Scone a big bowl of diet cream soda last night (with water added to flatten it), and he inhaled it. Maybe, if I can't get fluids under his skin by needle, I can get them inside him voluntarily...
 
I've never heard of cream soda, but that wasn't a bad idea (especially the diet--no sugar). My bunnies love a touch of grenadine in their water or pedialyte.
 
Mike,

I'm so sorry that you and Scone are going thru this stuff... and that he has developed Spondylosis. I fully understand about how hard it is to admin the sub q's. The vet showed me how to do it with a bit needle... I was shaking so voilently while doing it that they gave me a butterfly needle, and a long tube attached to that huge needle. That way I could insert the small "nicer" needle and then turn the huge needle over and press it against the floor. Which type did the vet give you? I also found on-line that you want to alternate points of entry if you can to minimize damage to his skin.

In order to stick Jacub, what we did was a modified version of the bunny burrito... where you put the bun on a blanket and fold both the head area and the butt area in... that way they can't move forward or back. And then you roll the sides up. This leaves just the back available.

It's very stressful having to do these things... knowing that your doing it for their health... but all they know is they're getting jabbed... :/ I really wish you lived closeby because I would be very will to lend my two hands.

You and Scone will be in my thoughts and prayers, I hope there's not more going on.

((((HUGS)))) to you both!!!
 
MagnoliaDee wrote:
they gave me a butterfly needle, and a long tube attached to that huge needle. That way I could insert the small "nicer" needle and then turn the huge needle over and press it against the floor. Which type did the vet give you?
She gave me butterfly needles from the start, but I'm not sure what you mean by the rest of that. The butterfly needle has a tube attached to it, and the tube attaches to a syringe. The only huge needle was to be used to fill the syringe from the bag of Ringers'. The problem is if I hold Scone tightly enough with one hand to get the needle in with the other, it would take a third hand to pick up the syringe, which doesn't work. The one time I did get the butterfly needle in, that's exactly what happened. When I started to push the plunger I couldn't hold him and the needle with the remaining hand, so he bolted.

I remember Jacub from my visit to Ohio years ago - he was pretty placid, at least when I held him. That's the problem - Scone's pretty placid when the vet holds him, too. It's only when Dad's there that he figures he's safe, so why cooperate? He doesn't seem to associate the needle with me, yet, as when he feels it he bolts and then immediately runs to me for comfort. When I had him on the countertop and got him wrapped in a towel, as soon as I pushed the needle against his skin he wriggled out of the towel and jumped into my arms and kissed my nose - "Daddy, save me!".

I'm going to call the vet today and see if she has any ideas, or if maybe we'll just wait and see on Thursday if his normal eating and drinking plus cream soda is going to do the trick.
 
This is kind of hard to describe butI use this position often

I get all my supplies lined up and place them on the floor because I will not be able to change posiitions once I am down there

I squat on the floor with legs apart and sit on my lower legs ; I then place the bun between my legs with rabbit's head towards my body
I actually use my inner thighs as a vice to hold the bun tight .. if he/ she tries to move I tighten my thighs on the bun ; it is sort of like having an extra pair of hands . if the bun is not strugglingI ease up but tighten when he/she tries to move.

it is actually easier to have the bun with face outward because you can get the skin from the opposite direction but if you do him the opposite direction I would wrap him in a towel first so that he cannot take off from between your legs at an opportune moment

This probably wouldn't work for everyone but I guess I discovered it over time; I do all bun treatments alone
 
MikeScone wrote:
MagnoliaDee wrote:
they gave me a butterfly needle, and a long tube attached to that huge needle. That way I could insert the small "nicer" needle and then turn the huge needle over and press it against the floor. Which type did the vet give you?
She gave me butterfly needles from the start, but I'm not sure what you mean by the rest of that. The butterfly needle has a tube attached to it, and the tube attaches to a syringe. The only huge needle was to be used to fill the syringe from the bag of Ringers'. The problem is if I hold Scone tightly enough with one hand to get the needle in with the other, it would take a third hand to pick up the syringe, which doesn't work. The one time I did get the butterfly needle in, that's exactly what happened. When I started to push the plunger I couldn't hold him and the needle with the remaining hand, so he bolted.

I remember Jacub from my visit to Ohio years ago - he was pretty placid, at least when I held him. That's the problem - Scone's pretty placid when the vet holds him, too. It's only when Dad's there that he figures he's safe, so why cooperate? He doesn't seem to associate the needle with me, yet, as when he feels it he bolts and then immediately runs to me for comfort. When I had him on the countertop and got him wrapped in a towel, as soon as I pushed the needle against his skin he wriggled out of the towel and jumped into my arms and kissed my nose - "Daddy, save me!".

I'm going to call the vet today and see if she has any ideas, or if maybe we'll just wait and see on Thursday if his normal eating and drinking plus cream soda is going to do the trick.


Mike,

That huge needle you use to re-fill the syringe was attached to my syringe and the vet had me stick Jacub with it. They use that large needle when they do it, so they can do it in 2.0 seconds... isn't that aweful?? For an extra couple minutes it could be MUCH less painful for the rabbit. Poor Jacub really winced when I pushed it in... and that's why I was shaking so badly. I think they should have to take into consideration the pain for the animal when doing things, and not just "how fast can we do it".

Anyways, I hope the vet is able to give you some advice. Scone still loves his daddy and that's wonderful to hear.

Btw... I've read on here that you can soak his veggies for half an hour and they will soak up some of the water, thus getting more into him. Maybe that might help as well?

You are both in my continued thoughts and prayers.

Sandra

 
Soaking veggies in water is another good way, can't believe we forgot to mention that, Sandra! It can cause loss of some vitamins from the veggies, though, so I wouldn't do it for more than 30 min at a time.
 
tonyshuman wrote:
Soaking veggies in water is another good way, can't believe we forgot to mention that, Sandra!
The vet mentioned wetting Scone's veggies at the first visit. I don't really soak them for any length of time, but I do make sure they're very wet when I put them in his dish.
 
Victoria wrote:
if you give cream soda would it be causing more gas? as rabbits dont burp and he already had some problem.
The carbonation would be a problem with straight cream soda. I've always diluted it with water to get rid of the gas.

Once I determined he liked the taste, I've been diluting it to the point where it's just a splash of soda in a bowl of water. He still scarfs it down, so it's really just acting as a flavoring at this point.
 
ah ok I get it. I also had problems with injections but I have a hand here most of the time, so one person holds and the the other injects. Also if the needle had to stay in for a while our rabbit (unless he is sick n not very responsive ) he will be jumping all over and impossible to do.
may be a neighbour or a friend can help?
 
Bo B Bunny wrote:
Mike, How's Scone Doing?
It's been a real roller-coaster ride. On the positive side, I think the Adequan is helping a bit. He's moving a little better, and this morning when I told him "time to get up" he got excited and ran around the bed, finally jumping up on the bed for the first time in a long while. On the negative side, I was at Cornell with him this afternoon. The prognosis has been reduced from "Good to Fair" to "Fair to Poor", which is not good news. While the BUN and creatinine levels were reduced from last week (79 to 63, and 7.1 to 5.0, repectively), the ultrasound showed problems beyond the calcification which appeared in the xray last week. Scone has damage to both kidneys (pyelectasia and hydronephrosis) caused by stones in the ureters. Both kidneys are enlarged, and they found mineralization in the right kidney, which was more severely damaged than the left. Quoting the report (after they described what they found in medical-speak),
Scone has enlarged kidneys and ureters, presumably due to stones obstructing the flow of urine and causing backup. This has already caused some damage to the renal parenchyma. Unfortunately, stones in rabbits are usually not able to be dissolved. This means that surgery or fluid diuresis are the options for addressing stones. Surgery is possible for removing stones in the ureters, although difficult and associated with potential complications. Fluid diuresis may help to propel the stones into the bladder, where they can hopefully be surgically removed. Fluids would also help address damage sustained by the kidneys. At this point, we also do not know if the damage from the obstructions is reversible.​
The treatment at this point is to try to get lots of fluids into Scone. I'm just going to have to find a way to do the sub-q injections. One of the patent agents in my office worked at the Cornell clinic when she was a biology undergrad, so I'm going to try bringing him to work each day and with any luck she can help. If nothing else, there will be other people there to help hold him while I do the injections. He likes visiting the office - everyone makes a fuss over him, and there are lots of boxes to chew and old patents to shred - and over time he should adapt to the daily car ride. Besides, I'll feel better being able to monitor his condition and not leave him alone all day.

I have another follow-up appointment in two and a half weeks.
 
It has to be a comfort that you can take him to work with you. I hope your coworker can help with the injections to get Scone what he needs every day. You are definitely in my thoughts.
 

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