Territorial Marking, HELP!

[kuniklos]

I have had General Bismark for 4-5 years. He's a neutered male and has had perfect litter box habits the entire time we've owned him. Really, he's been swell.

This past October we adopted Pumpkin, female, (she's 5ish years old as well) who was spayed when we brought her home. Their bonding was relatively short (two weeks) and she's a gem as well. They are good friends.

However...dun dun DUN. Bismark is pissing and pooing up our place. He is not spraying but rather leaving quarter to palm size puddles in a 10 foot area around their litter boxes. He's also been leaving single pellets around this territory. Pumpkin had recently joined in in this adventure.

I'm cleaning up a lot of poo and pee. I am not sure I can even describe the effort I am putting into this. I hand vacuum the poops around 3-6 times a day. I am blotting up pee every other hour. I am (animal safe) using a carpet shampooer at least 2x a week on a very large area. Since November

I have gone through 5 gallons of vinegar. Yeah.

Their range is spreading and I don't know what to do. I can no longer get all the stains up, they have soaked well below the carpet (we're renting egads!) and have peed through the carpet I laid down over our permanent carpet.

Here is what I have done so far:

Increased the number of litter boxes.

Increased the cleaning of the litter boxes and stuff them full of goodies. (I cleaned every other day. Now it's every day.)

Put down some plastic mats to make clean up easier (but they just pee and poo AROUND the flippin' mat).

I temporarily closed off their free roaming areas to see if a smaller space would improve things (they normally have around 800 square feet of free space 24/7). It only made it worse.

They have had recent vet visits. Clean bill of health. No health issues that could contribute to it.

They get along and they are both fixed. I have no idea what to do with this.

Pumpkin supposedly also had immaculate box habits. My life is cleaning stains they do not come up any more. It's hours upon hours a week.

Something about bringing a second bunny into the house has really messed our home up royal.

Today I discovered they have JUST started to do this under our couch and one of our coffee tables which is now exceeding 20ish feet of hell for me.

Help?

 

[stevesmum]

Who is the top bun in this scenario? Maybe this is their way of figuring that out. I can't imagine how frustrated you are and unfortunately it sounds like you've done everything I would think of to deter them.

 

[kuniklos]

I don't know if they ever established that. The male tried humping her a lot but she never allows it. In turn, she has never tried to hump him. She thumps at him if he gets frisky with her. However they groom each other in equal measure. Perhaps you are right about them using this as their literal pissing contest for who is on top. I just can't keep waiting for them to figure it out.

 

[JBun]

When they were checked by the vet, did the vet do a urinalysis or urine culture to rule out UTI, and were any xrays taken to rule out bladder sludge? Is there any urine stained fur? Other possibilities are e. cuniculi(which would need a blood titer to rule out), kidney issues, as well as arthritis. It's not likely both would have one of these issues, but one may and the other is just following the lead and peeing everywhere as well.

Other things to consider are environmental changes causing the upset. Basically anything new or that has changed in your home. Furniture moved around, new people or pets coming around, new smells, new sounds, other animals being seen by your buns from a window, can all be a trigger for territorial marking.

Only other thing I can think of is if you are using small litter boxes that the buns aren't comfortable in. In which case using larger ones with plenty of space to move around can often solve this.

If it's not a health problem and is all behavioral and territory marking, your only option may be to change their set up and reduce their space temporarily until litter habits are restored. I would suggest confining them to an area with hard floors. If you don't have any, buy a sheet of linoleum to go over your carpet for their area, a heavy duty tarp can even work temporarily if your buns aren't chewers. Then use an xpen to keep them in their area. Make sure it is tall enough, especially if either is a good jumper. If they don't like slippery floors, you can always get small area rugs for them, that are washable. But it really sounds like you have already tried all of the other techniques that can help restore minor litter box issues. And sometimes you need to restrict their space and clearly define their area to get things back on track. The smaller area can also sometimes help them sort out dominance more quickly, if any of that is contributing. Then once they are back on track, I would suggest getting your carpets cleaned with a pet cleaning product, before letting them loose again. And when you are to this point, I would suggest slowly increasing their space back up, to minimize territorial issues occurring again.

This link may have something helpful, though you have probably tried most things suggested.
http://www.therabbithouse.com/behaviour/problem-litter-training.asp

 

[kuniklos]

I haven't had them xrays but they both got a full check up including stool and urine sample in November.

The biggest environment change is adding the second bunny. I increased the size of their litter box was well (from a triangular 12"x12"x9") to a much larger one (23 x 18.5 x 11). Then I ended up using both. Today we now have a very large "tray" as a tester for their litter box that's a 40"x32" and Bismark is already peeing outside it.

Bismark is certainly the one peeing. Pumpkin isn't. They both are sprinkling the area with poop though.

Sadly I spent 6 1/2 hours today cleaning the carpet...with a carpet shampooer and with every non-toxic cleaner I can get my hands on. It still smells like pee and is a bit stained. It's gone completely through the carpet and I can't do anything about that anymore.

We have a high ex-pen, but it's not the largest of areas. Bismark was kept in a small space until we adopted him and he go absolutely insane when confined. Chews on the bars, will stop eating and make himself sick. He will stop eating cecals and it's just not a good situation. We don't have hardwood floors either.

My husband and I are trying to figure out where to pen them off. They live in an ex-pen together in neutral places when we take them on trips. This is how we found out that Bismark getting really upset about it. Bismark completely pees through the rug we bring. It concerns me that doing that is only going to exacerbate the current issue but we are pretty much out of options.

 

[JBun]

My suggestion would be a full vet check to rule out any potential health issues causing the problem. You want the vet to check for arthritis and any belly sensitivity, then if nothing is found a urinalysis and possibly a urine culture, then if nothing a blood test to check for infection and kidney function, and possibly xrays to check for any abnormalities.

Other than that, I don't know what to suggest besides reflooring everything with hard floors. Though you may still get pee puddles it's possible the change of flooring may help reset things if this is a behavioral issue. Other thing that might work is making them an enclosure with something like clear plastic lexan for the walls so he has no bars to chew, and hard flooring. Though he could still possibly get upset being confined and stop eating. A cheap temporary measure you could try is a plastic tarp that covers the whole floor, just to see if the change of flooring makes any difference at all.

You certainly have a tricky dilemma. Usually if behavioral, reducing their area temporarily is what often solves the issue, but with your bun this doesn't sound like a possibility. I still would highly suspect a possible health issue, just because to have such a change and loss of litter habits for an older rabbit that has had good ones for so many years, would be somewhat unusual for it to be behavioral problem.

I hope you are able to sort something out soon. I know having a bun peeing everywhere is a pain. I have an older arthritic bun that pees everywhere, but fortunately I am able to keep her in a tiled room that I have lined with puppy pee pads(she's not a chewer) that I change out as needed. Please update if you find anything out or find a solution. I would be very interested to find out the cause of his issues.

 

[kuniklos]

Last weekend we reduced their area to less than half of what they are used it. The General is no pleased. Pumpkin doesn't seem to mind at all as long as the treats keep coming. It's pretty much stopped the peeing (minus one spot when they pushed their litter box out of a corner) and the pooping outside the box is greatly reduced. However, slowly the pooping outside the box is increasing. There seems to be a little more every morning within a foot of the box. Gosh darn it bunnies! We'll just have to see how it goes for right now! Thankfully Bismark is still eating fine, but he's chewing up the expen bars. We have started calling him "The Tiniest Batman," trying to superhero is way through the bars.

The bunnies have been tested, cultured, poked and proded, but didn't get any x-rays as my vet felt they were in tip-top shape. We're pretty confident this is all just territorial nonsense with the addition of a second bunny.

My husband and I will have to replace the carpet out of pocket on our own. We'd love hardwood, but we rent and the management office would never approve of the change.

Thanks all!