Splay leg

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Elphaba wrote:
Does anyone have any more info on how exactly a splay causes organ damage?
theres no way to know exactly for each splay leg bunny ..its all about the weight not being perportioned over all 4 feets properly ..so wherever their weight leans the majority of their life it will put alot of pressure on whatever organ is there...its hard to say what happens to that partical organ...i know theres a person on RO that has dealt with splay leg before i think its Randy but im not sure how to find him on here,hes extremely knowleagable about disabled buns.ill try and find him.
 
That would be great. I'm curious as to how it would actually put pressure on her organs as she doesn't seem to lean at all. It's almost like it props her in anupright position, but it seems to be twisting some days and she's sporadically sensitive about it.

It's frustrating because I feel like there isn't a lot I can do for her day to day. She's starting to get matts on the dorsal surface of her hind end and it's very difficult to hold her and brush that area. She definately won't sit for it.
 
Flash Gordon wrote:
Elphaba wrote:
Does anyone have any more info on how exactly a splay causes organ damage?
theres no way to know exactly for each splay leg bunny ..its all about the weight not being perportioned over all 4 feets properly ..so wherever their weight leans the majority of their life it will put alot of pressure on whatever organ is there...its hard to say what happens to that partical organ...i know theres a person on RO that has dealt with splay leg before i think its Randy but im not sure how to find him on here,hes extremely knowleagable about disabled buns.ill try and find him.
This is exactly what I would have said. Unfortunately Randy is really busy with wildlife rescue, so you may not be successful in contacting him, but Pipp knows quite a bit about this.

I was confused about who owned these, but it was Leaf who took in two very splayed baby boy buns a while back. She hasn't been on the forum in a while due to the rest of her life becoming very busy, but this thread is a blog about her two young splayed guys
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=32878&forum_id=6
 
buns bodies arent designed to sit in that upright position their whole life....it will take its toll.
since we as human have an upright position normally..think about if you had a hunched over back all the time...,and couldnt straighten up...dont u think think that ur organs and spinal cord would have probs adjusting to this ...since its been designed to sit upright...?....
The Designer made everything porportion properly for this animals structure....altering it somehow will cause instabilities and pressure points ..
 
thanks Claire.:).i did see her blog when i first got on RO ..,she loved those sweet babies so much..it was both inspiring and hearbreaking to read...but they were loved and thats much more then we can say for alot of bunnies out there..
 
Yeah, big warning that the blog for Holiday and Fiesta is very sweet but also heartbreaking. Those two boys were very young and very splayed, and they had a rough hand dealt to them. There is a good deal of info in it, though, about how splay legs can cause the organs to be put in unnatural positions, which can cause stress on them, at least for some very extreme cases.

I know of several cases of bunnies with a single splay leg, though, that lived relatively long and normal lives, so it really would depend on how severe the splay is. I agree that having one leg splayed as bad as your girl could be harmful, though. She can't lay in all the normal bunny positions, I assume, like "porkchop", "chicken/loaf", and flops, right?
 
Claire the buns that uve seen that live long lives with splay ,are they splays on the front or the back?..or does that really matter?.id be curious to know the actual causes of death for splay leg bunnies? does anybody really know by necropsy?..or is it they just end up seeing that their bun is going down hill?..
 
Both front and back, but only with slight splays--less than 45 degrees or so. I don't know if necropsies are often done, but it can be somewhat obvious sometimes, for instance if the lungs stop working correctly, or if they get stasis (for a rear-leg splay that might make their intestines in a different shape).
 
[align=center]I wish you luck in what you decide to do! I wish I know more about splayed legs...

I just read Leaf's blog about Holiday and Fiesta and I cried D= It was so sweet and so sad...
 
We've had to deal with splayed legs recently. We had one litter of 3 where two had slightly splayed front legs. In one of them the back legs were also the same way. When they were about 5 months one of them suddenly developed hind limb paresis...partial paralysis. No evidence of injury.The vet tried a couple of things which didn't work, and we finally hadthe young doe euthanized because she was losing weight and developing other problems (because she couldn't lift her hindquarters off the wire). The necropsy showed that she hade. cuniculi in her blood and spinal cord. It is something that is generally considered to be genetic. This also explained the splayed legs in her littermate. We are pretty sure the mom is a carrier...she doesn't have splayedlegs. The owner of the buck assured us that he'd never had this problem withthe buck's other offspring, and this was the mom's first litter. We obviously can't breed this doe again so we're trying to find a home for her as a pet.

We really hated to lose the young doe because she was really good...she'd won best of breed in a show just two weeks prior to developing the paresis. :(
 
Sorry to hear about that. :(

Back to the organ issue though. I don't see how you can equate a quadrupedal animal with a splayed limb to a biped with a bent over position. Maybe it's just because I haven't seen many splays but it's not quite as extreme.

She really doesn't situate herself any differently than the other rabbits. She is able to lie in a wide variety of positions, maybe not quite as many as the other buns but she does manage to be very versatile. I've seen her lie in a leap frog position with both legs stretched out behind her. You can tell that the one leg is abnormal but the rest of her looks perfectly fine (at least externally). I have no idea how she gets it into position but she manages.

The two major things that the others do that I've never seen her do (and wish she did) are lie on her back and binky.

The three things I'm worried about are injury to the affected leg (ie. a break), arthritis or spinal issues from lugging around an elongated and non-functional leg, and complications from the obvious grooming issues she has with her hind end. Although so far she seems to be doing alright with cecals. There was a period of time when I was finding them very often but not lately.

I really wish I had a vet up here that would see rabbits. It'll be good when I move south again but that could be anywhere from 4 months to more than a year. I may have to find a way to bring her down before then if possible.

Anyways, thanks for all the help so far! I'm off to read about Holiday and Fiesta (fantastic names)!
 
i dont care how many legs something has,,if their structure is flawed it will cause probs...that means ANY kind of structure....i could break down all kinds of examples but i have a feeling ur gonna misinterpret them also...good luck with ur research on splay buns.
 
Yes I agree it will cause problems, I just don't follow the logic of it causing organ damage in particular. Forgive me for trying to understand what is going on with my rabbit, but I'm not one to take what's given at anyones word. If it doesn't make sense to me I will always challenge and look into it further I certainly didn't mean to offend you. I'm just trying to gain knowledge so I know what steps I need to take. I'm sure any responsible pet owner would do the same in my shoes.

Thanks everyone for your input and suggestions thus far.
 
We absolutely want you to ask questions and learn more about your rabbit, that's what we're here for. Although we may not all agree on something, the discussion is helpful because it may bring up things some people haven't thought of.

Here's my take on it. There are a lot of muscles that we can't see and we don't have conscious control over. The body wall is muscle and connective tissue that exists between the skin/subcutaneous fat layer and the body cavity proper. I have observed a lot of spays and done a fair amount of dissection in classes, so if you've done that, you know what I'm talking about. The body wall is made of muscles you can't control. There are also muscles that you can control in the midsection, like abdominal muscles, obliques, etc. All of these muscles are constantly being controlled to keep posture and the body in alignment.

My concern is that these muscles that make up the body wall and the postural muscles of the trunk will not be adequately toned for proper organ alignment in a bunny with splay leg. Because the rabbit has an abnormal gait that may not be the same every day, and there may be strain on muscles that pushes them past where they are supposed to go. This could lead to things like hernias, where the body wall can't hold the organs in the right place, or organs may not be properly protected from damage as the rabbit moves. For instance, the intestines and bladder could be dragged along the ground and have contact with the floor as the rabbit moves. They're not meant to have that kind of pressure on them. There's a reason that the vital organs that are delicate aren't placed in the walking appendages of creatures--the movement can cause physical damage. In addition, there has been some documentation of organs shifting position in a splay legged bunny, mentioned in some of the links. That could mean that instead of the intestines hitting the ground, the kidney is, and that could be really damaging--you know that punching someone in the kidney hard enough can kill them.

I would think that a 3-legged animal would have a much more normal gait, and the trunk muscles would adapt to carrying the body in a way that keeps the organs off the ground. That's just my take on the situation.
 
That makes much more sense to me. Thank you. I have done some dissection and performed cat neuters but there are no spays under my belt so far.

Although I can see where you're coming from in this case I feel should explain her situation a bit more. She seems to be propped up on her splayed side by her stifle when she is in a standing position. I'm sure this causes stress on the joint itself and probably her femur, fibula and tibia but her abdomen doesn't seem to be pressed to the ground or anything. And when she walks/hops around she moves the same as the other rabbits the only thing that looks different is that on her splayed side her leg is sticking out and sometimes the foot is twisted to the point that her tarsals and metatarsals are sideways against the floor but other times it seems straight. It worries me that it may be moving but there is a chance I may be exaggerating to myself because I know I do tend to be a worrier.It can be hard to see exactly what is where because she's so dark.

I have been seriously considering amputation because ultimately, I do feel it will give her a better chance, however, I don't want to jump to cutting off the leg if it will benefit her in some way to keep it. She seems to be gaining more control over it lately and was even using it to scratch her nose a few minutes ago when I went in to check on her. Cuteness!

I'm very very thankful that it's a unilateral splay because between her, the other rabbits, the cats, the dog, the snakes, school and work I don't know how I would cope with a bilaterally splayed bunny!

Oh yes, and I cut her nails yesterday and she has definitely been active enough to keep her three other sets of nails worn down which I was happy to see. If I had a leg like that I might be tempted to take it easy most of the time but she's a get-up-and-go bunny. :biggrin:
 
For anyone who wants an up date I'm south for the month of February and therefore back in the land of bunny vets. I brought my buns with me and Gimpy has her spay and leg amputation booked for this Wednesday. I'm nervous but excited. I really think it needs to be done for her to live the fullest life possible.

Thanks for all the advice and shared experiences everyone. I'll let you know how she's doing post-op. :)
 
tonyshuman wrote:
We absolutely want you to ask questions and learn more about your rabbit, that's what we're here for. Although we may not all agree on something, the discussion is helpful because it may bring up things some people haven't thought of.

Here's my take on it. There are a lot of muscles that we can't see and we don't have conscious control over. The body wall is muscle and connective tissue that exists between the skin/subcutaneous fat layer and the body cavity proper. I have observed a lot of spays and done a fair amount of dissection in classes, so if you've done that, you know what I'm talking about. The body wall is made of muscles you can't control. There are also muscles that you can control in the midsection, like abdominal muscles, obliques, etc. All of these muscles are constantly being controlled to keep posture and the body in alignment.

My concern is that these muscles that make up the body wall and the postural muscles of the trunk will not be adequately toned for proper organ alignment in a bunny with splay leg. Because the rabbit has an abnormal gait that may not be the same every day, and there may be strain on muscles that pushes them past where they are supposed to go. This could lead to things like hernias, where the body wall can't hold the organs in the right place, or organs may not be properly protected from damage as the rabbit moves. For instance, the intestines and bladder could be dragged along the ground and have contact with the floor as the rabbit moves. They're not meant to have that kind of pressure on them. There's a reason that the vital organs that are delicate aren't placed in the walking appendages of creatures--the movement can cause physical damage. In addition, there has been some documentation of organs shifting position in a splay legged bunny, mentioned in some of the links. That could mean that instead of the intestines hitting the ground, the kidney is, and that could be really damaging--you know that punching someone in the kidney hard enough can kill them.

I would think that a 3-legged animal would have a much more normal gait, and the trunk muscles would adapt to carrying the body in a way that keeps the organs off the ground. That's just my take on the situation.

Amputation brings up the same issues, the muscles, joints and bones in the remaining leg and the rest of the skeleton will be compromised down the road. The more I look into it, the more I'd strongly advise against it. When I talked about organs being compromised in a past post, I was referring to a rabbit with both legs splayed.

The more up-to-date thinking indicates that to remove one leg causes more problems than it cures. I know it looks bad to us, but nature does allow for such things.

If you're worried about a break, you can deal with if/when it happens, I don't think it's a common occurrence.

This is something I'm currently working with Medirabbit on. The site holds the opinion that amputations are far too often done unnecessarily and the long term effects not taken into consideration. They say the other leg and the rest of the skeleton will be affected.

I'm writing something for them on that very topic based on my experiences with Neil (who continues to be just fine with his terribly smashed leg).

My Flemish midget, Chance, has had a badly splayed leg since birth (along with other issues) and because its a genetic or environmental splay, its strongly advised NOT to put her under anesthetic for a spay much less an amputation. That brings up the fact that rabbits with deformities can have other issues, I'd never take that chance.

I'd at least confer with the MediRabbit people, detail your specifics and get their opinion.


sas :twocents
 
Pipp wrote:
My Flemish midget, Chance, has had a badly splayed leg since birth (along with other issues) and because its a genetic or environmental splay, its strongly advised NOT to put her under anesthetic for a spay much less an amputation. That brings up the fact that rabbits with deformities can have other issues, I'd never take that chance.

sas :twocents
my Angel has splay and "other" issues ..i had no idea that the two go hand and hand so often..
when i took her in for her spay i had a long discussion with the vet about the surgery..i was really concerned for her cuz shes dif then the rest of the buns..its hard to explain how "different" she is ...i went ahead with the spay cuz i thought it was important for her ..i told him if anything seems "off" dont go thru with the surgery...he reasurred me that he would monitor her every step of the way...i had nobody to discuss this with cuz nobody had a bun like her ,,my vet didnt even say it was chancey ..I THOUGHT IT WAS CHANCEY ...ur comment about being worried about putting ur bun under anesthetic made me realize altho she came thru the surgery ok..i know my bun better then anybody and i prob shouldnt have chanced it ..i shuda went with my gut instinct....but shes done and thank god i didnt lose her ...
Sas tell me about Chance ...what "differences" do u see with him?....my Angel isnt "all there" so to speak but on the other hand ..she almost seems smarter then the rest at times.....shes really an amazing bunny.acccording to her she has no probs whatsoever...shes more then capable of doing what other buns do and go above and beyond what they do...i call her evil kineval around here..she is my daredevil ,,,,go figure, my gimp bunny is my adventurer,destroyer,conquerer ,and stunt bunny!.
when i tell others about her unusualness they dont quite get it...if u know what i mean so if u can share Chances issues with me that would be awesome.
 
Elphaba wrote:
For anyone who wants an up date I'm south for the month of February and therefore back in the land of bunny vets. I brought my buns with me and Gimpy has her spay and leg amputation booked for this Wednesday. I'm nervous but excited. I really think it needs to be done for her to live the fullest life possible.

Thanks for all the advice and shared experiences everyone. I'll let you know how she's doing post-op. :)
Good luck and i wish her a speedy recovery...:)..keep us updated on this amputation ..im very interested in seeing how she does without the leg.
 
It's been a while but I thought I'd let everyone know how Gimpy is doing. She is fantastic! After we took her radiographs it was pretty evident that there were no corrective measures to be taken and it was decided aftera great deal of consideration that the best option for her long-term was to remove the abnormal leg.

She is moving around soooooo much better now. She's quicker and much more fluid in her movements. She adjusted to the change immediately and seems a much happier little bunny now. She's also finally spayed which is a big relief for me and will hopefully improve her relationship with the other two rabbits.

Overall she is a much happier and more comfortable bunny. Yay!
 

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