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Skyler has a runny nose with green snot

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SnowyShiloh

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I'm worried about Skyler Monroe! Tonight he has a runny nose, the snot is green and I heard him kind of sneeze once. When he came out of his cage, his nose was slightly damp, but after running around and sneezing that one time, there's much more snot. It's not dripping or anything, but it's definitely there. I'm so worried :nerves1 I am afraid of losing him, too. Tallulah had runny nose problems and I'm afraid he got whatever she had. So many unknowns. I'm calling the vet tomorrow for an appointment, won't be able to bring him in until Monday unless I have my boyfriend bring him in on Sunday. Is that too long to wait? He's bouncing around the living room, being his usual nosy and energetic and hungry self.

How serious does this sound?
 

Pipp

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Poor Shiloh... :(

Is there snot on his paws? Is he sounding stuffy in his repiratory tract or lungs?

A lot of bunnies carry Pasturella (or other bacteria) and it only comes affects them when they're stressed.

It may be a case of the chicken or the egg -- is it something Monroe gave to Shilo or vice-versa. Or none of the above. It could be something else entirely. Monroe hasn't been there that long, and I don't think he was quarantined or tested before you got him, it's possible thatTallulah may have had a poor immune system (given her ongoing problems) and pickedup her runny nose from him.

Did hehave a wet or runny nose after the flight,or any other times he was stressed?

If it is Pasturella, it's not a death sentence, but he will be on antibiotics for the rest of his life.

You really don't need this kind of a worry now. I don't think you need to hit an ER vet unless it's interfering with his breathing or he gets worse in terms of snot, appetite, etc, but he'll probably need a culture asap and maybe antibiotics.



sas :pray:
 

SnowyShiloh

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Sas, thanks for replying! He's "sneezed" again a couple of times as he's been running around, but he's cleaned his face of most of the snot. It isn't on his paws or anything. He doesn't seem to be having trouble breathing. Tallulah was actually snot free from when we brought Sky home until she started getting ill again the other day, and even then her nose was just a little damp. Not outright snotty like Skyler. Skyler has had a slight damp nose a couple of times since we got him, but not until we brought him home from Anchorage. I don't think he gave it to Tallulah since she's been struggling with it for quite a while. At least I really, really hope he didn't give her anything that killed her... The fact that she seemingly died from problems she had before we got him is "encouraging" though.

A side note, if he does have pasteurella, do I need to limit my bunnies to just him and Rory, or is it safe to eventually bring in a third bun again? My heart is aching for Tallulah and I'm very interested in finding another little girl at some point in the future.

Also, do I need to do anything special to keep Rory safe? The two eat hay from the same bag (at the moment, Skyler has his face buried in the bag of hay and is eating from it, Rory does the same when he's out), possibly spreading illness. I also don't usually wash my hands between petting them or anything.
 

Pipp

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Many, many bunnies will carry the Pasturella bug without ever showing symptoms. It can manifest itself in other ways -- various kinds of abscesses, eye and ear infections or whatever -- or they can remain perfectly healthy.

You'll read that immediate vet care is essential, but that starts with a Culture and Sensitivity test to determine the right antibiotics, so the intial vet visit must be capable of that kind of testing. If you go in on the weekend and they have to send the test elsewhere omMonday, might as well save the ER money and go to a bunny vetonMonday.

Again referring to the Library:

From this article by Jeffrey R. Jenkins, D.V.M.

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Pasteurelloses, "snuffles," torticollis, metritis, mastitis, abscesses and many other problems of rabbits are clinical expressions of infections caused by Pasteurella multocida, a bacterium that is present in most all pet rabbits. There is a great deal of misunderstanding about both the bacterium and the diseases that it causes in our friends.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Pasteurella multocida lives in the upper respiratory tract (nose and sinus) of rabbits and other mammals. This is its niche, where it likes to live. Most strains of the bacterium have evolved to NOT cause diseases in their host, the animal which they live. Rather, a balance is established between the rabbit's immune system and the bacterium in which the number of the bacteria are kept in check and no disease develops.[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But disease does, of course, occur. Three factors may be involved in these situations. The rabbit may "pick up" a strain of Pasteurella that is more virulent (prone to disease), the bacterium may find its way into tissues or organs where it is more likely to cause disease (such as a bite wound, lactating mammary gland or uterus) or something may happen in the rabbit's life that decreases its immune system's ability to keep the Pasteurella in check.[/font]


As for other rabbits, depends on the strain, severity and prognosis I imagine. It may not be the 'bad' strain (heck, it may not be bacterial). Usually serious pasterella infectionsmean a bunny is blowing white snot thick enough to coat his/her paws.

So best not worry about it until he's tested.

Here's another excerpt, this one from Fosters and Smith...

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=18&cat=1803&articleid=2686

Snuffles is generally treated with antibiotics for 14-30 days. Antibiotics commonly used include enrofloxacin (Baytril), ciprofloxacin, and trimethoprim sulfa. Rabbits need beneficial bacteria in their intestine to aid in digestion and they often need to be supplemented with these bacteria during and after antibiotic treatment; therefore, these drugs should only be used under strict veterinary guidance. In severe cases, supportive treatment consisting of fluids and supplemental nutrition may need to be given as well.
If the strain of Pasteurella multocida is a mild one and the immune system of the infected rabbit is strong, the symptoms may be mild and the animal will recover without treatment. However, if the strain is aggressive or the animal has a weakened immune response, the disease can be severe, chronic, and even fatal. The goal with treatment is to use an effective antibiotic at the first signs of infection. If the infection goes for days or weeks without treatment, it is likely that it will become chronic and very difficult to eliminate. In most cases, the signs of the disease may disappear, but the bacteria are usually still present, only in smaller numbers. Even in cases that are treated early, some animals will still develop chronic infections in their sinus passages that require long-term treatment, or even lifelong treatment to keep them under control.

The disease can be present in the nasal cavities without the rabbit showing any signs of disease, so a healthy-appearing rabbit can still develop signs later if he is stressed. Reducing stress is also very important in helping a rabbit avoid infections and reducing the severity of the disease if he does become infected.

Reducing stress is also very important in helping a rabbit avoid infections and reducing the severity of the disease if he does become infected. Common causes of stress in rabbits include poor nutrition, improper housing, chilling, overcrowding, or aggression from other rabbits. To prevent stress, provide the best possible housing. Offer a variety of fresh vegetables and free choice timothy hay in addition to a properly formulated pelleted diet. Also, avoid letting your rabbit come into contact with other rabbits, particularly if they are sick. Because this disease can be transmitted through secretions on your hands and clothes, be very careful when handling other rabbits, and always wash your hands and clothes after handling a rabbit other than your own.

sas :clover:


EDIT: whoops, replaced the breeder info with handling info..
 

ra7751

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Hi,

I agree with everything being said and noted in the articles with one huge exception...the drugs mentioned in the Foster and Smith article. Those drugs have been so overused and abused over the years that most strains of pasteurella have become resistant to these drugs. Sometimes you might get these drugs to work once, maybe twice, and then they are useless. Your more progressive doctors are using much different antibiotics now. For the time being, Zithromax is the drug of choice of the "elite" level of doctors. I also use Penicillinor Chloramphenicol quite effectively. The key to treating this is to have a culture performed to determine exactly what the pathogen is and what it is sensitive to. One note about pasteurella.....it can never be cured and it will always be lurking. It is an opportunistic bacteria which means it is looking for a weakness in the immune system. While the drugs will help, if it is pasteurella, it will be the rabbit's own immune system that will "put the genie back into the bottle" so to speak. Do everything you can to offer support to the immune system.....stress free environment, proper diet, etc.

Randy
 

SnowyShiloh

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Sky sneezed more last night and I've heard him sneeze/snuffle since I got home from work half an hour ago. I spent all day at work trying to find someone with tomorrow or Monday off so I could trade days with them and take him to the vet, but the soonest I could get was Tuesday. Then after all that, it turns out that my boyfriend isn't leaving to go to a convention thing in Texas until Monday morning, not tomorrow morning! So he will be able to bring Skyler in tomorrow while I'm at work :) I wish I could be there to help explain things and share my concerns with the vet, but at least Skyler will be seen and I can always schedule a time to call and talk to Dr DeLeon.

Also, I'm cross posting this from Tallulah's thread because I figure it might be relevant to Skyler's illness. This is part of an e-mail I got from Tallulah's breeder today:


"I know some of Tallulah's symptoms started right away (runny nose) when you first had her, and that you consistently gave her the very best vet care (I'm sorry about your vet bill--way more than I could have imagined), so I believe perhaps genetically she had a compromised immune system that could not overcome the usual rabbit ups and downs. Her mom has always been healthy, and her dad as well(I am sorry to say that Ijust last monthplaced him in a 4H home because I just had too many bucks). Olivia has never lost a baby, nor have I ever had someone contact me with a healthy problem in her children--till now. However, Olivia had a litter of six in March, and I lost three of them in the space of one week when they reached six weeks of age. It was mucoid enteritis, which strikes weaning bunnies and is essentially 100% fatal due to cocci and clostridium overgrowth resulting from GI stasis and toxins in the cecum which cause death. I spent a lot of time and money and tried every antibiotic, probiotic, vitamin, etc. that I researched, but to no avail. I have lost four more bunnies during this month, all in the same manner, though in different litters, and it is so sad and discouraging. In previous years, I have never lost more than one baby here and there, and never one older than 9 weeks. I read that there are predisposing factors, such as environmental changes, loud noises, different caretakers, diet changes and genetics that may precipitate this condition, but the real cause is unknown. It sounds like this is the same condition that affected Tallulah, although she was an adult and should have been able to overcome it, I would think...but it makes me wonder about genetic predisposition. I am still breeding my rabbits and currently have several healthy ones that made it through my recent crisis without any problems, but I cannot help but wonder why some were affected and others weren't. I am disinfecting my cages carefully and have switched to hay racks so the babies aren't eating hay off the bottom of the cage as much, but they still sit on their food while they eat, etc, so I have all the moms and babies on Sulmet for cocci, although none of my adults are thin or show any sign of disease."

What do you all think?
 

mouse_chalk

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Oh no Shiloh, it's not fair for you to have to worry about another bunny so soon, I'm sorry. I'm afraid I can't offer any advice medically, but I really hope that Skyler will be ok! :hug: I do know that he has the very best care available to him...

Jen xx
 

Marietta

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Having read this very interesting e-mail of Tallulah's breeder, I see now that more of his young rabbits have died of mucoid enteritis. It seems that Tallulah's ongoing health issues could, indeed, have beengenetic or due to a hereditary predisposition whichcould have beenfurther affected bythe breeding conditions. One could never know for sure, though. In regard to Skyler (have you got him from the same breeder?), the green snot is a symptom of a bacterial infection of the respiratory system, as all the others have told you. Which bacteria have infected him, therefore, which shall be the proper antibiotic for his case, can only be determined via a culture.

I don't see a direct connection between Skyler's respiratory ailment with Tallulah's GI problems. Should Skyler's problem be pasteurellosis, other members have already told you that it breaks out in times when the rabbits immune system is already compromised by other reasons.

Marietta
 

SnowyShiloh

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Marietta, thanks for your reply! The reason I'm worried about Skyler is because Tallulah also suffered from a snotty nose a lot of her life, and I'm worried that whatever she had could take hold in him because his immune system seems to be weakened right now.
 

SnowyShiloh

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I just got home from work, Paul dropped Skyler off at the vet's after I left for work and then picked him up after the vet examined him. She wrote me a note saying all that she did. She did a fecal to test for parasites, determined that he has a mild upper respiratory infection, and prescribed him the antibiotic Albon. She said she wants to try it before moving onto a stronger one. He's supposed to get 1/4 a tablet of Albon crushed and mixed with water once a day for the next 20 days- a new one for me, they've always been prescribed liquids before! This might be interesting.

Anyway, I'm a little irritated. I don't really see why he needed to be tested for parasites, I would prefer if he were tested for coccidia and clostridium. Also, they didn't do a culture, which seems rather important! $120 spent just to have to bring him back in and have more tests run, not to mention another examination fee :huh She wrote a note that I should call and schedule a time to talk to her on the phone and she wants to see Skyler again in 7-10 days.

So, what do you all think of what happened? Does the diagnosis, treatment and medication seem appropriate?

Thanks!
 

SnowyShiloh

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Well, that certainly wasn't successful! I just tried to give him the crushed up pill in water, and most of it ended up on my pants and the rest ended up all over him. He refused to swallow and most of it just dripped out of his mouth while he flailed his arms frantically and unhappily chewed the fur on his chest. He's only 5 months old and I know sugar is bad for bunnies, but could I maybe mix the crushed up pill with a little bit of apple juice? Maybe then it would taste better.
 

Marietta

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Does the pill have to be crushed and mixed in water? I mean, if swallowing it would be the same, putting it in a small slice of his fav fruit or a tiny piece of bread would be much easier to swallow. In this way, he'll just keep on spitting it... Why don't you ask the vet if you can put it in food instead of water? On the other hand, if it has to be dissolved in a liquid (maybe in order to avoid tummy/stomach upsets), do give a nice yammie juice a chance, whatever flavour you think he'd like.

I don't know this drug, so I can't comment on the treatment. I'm sure that somebody else, familiar with Albon, will answer. However, a more agressive treatment option was the one I thought the vet would have prescribed.

Marietta
 

mouse_chalk

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Poor Skyler... :hug:

I don't know about the treatment, but did you say that it was the 'lesser bunny experienced' vet that saw her? If so, is there any way you could call the more exerienced vet and speak to her, and maybe tell her your concerns, and explain that given what happened with Tallulah, you'd rather be on the safe side and have a culture done, and tests for coccidia and clostridium? I don't know if that would help maybe...

Thinking of you guys, and hoping it all gets easier soon...

Jen xx
 

RexyRex

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When I had to give pills to Alaska and Gixxer I crushed up the pill and mixed it with Petromalt. They LOVE that stuff and gobbled the "doctored" Petromalt up with no problems. I hope this helps....I'm so sorry for all you are going through:(

If Skyler likes canned pumpkin or has a favorite baby foodyou can mixed the crushed up pill in that.
 

Pipp

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Apple juice, apple sauce, banana... those will all work. A little sugar is fine, it's a lot of sugar or a sudden influx of sugar that's not so good. (One of my vets suggested mixing honey in with the meds, but I prefer fruit!)

He shouldn't be stressed when taking the meds, so whatever it takes to make him the least stressed.

And they shoud have done a C&S test, although often they'll prescribe something in the meantime while waiting for the results.

I know Dana Krempels thinks Albon is pretty much useless, I think Randy does as well?.

Here's an excerpt from Dana'sC&S opinion:

If your bunny has an infection of any kind--from an upper respiratory infection, to a jaw abscess to a urinary tract infection--it's critical to know which antibiotics will be effective against the particular pathogen (i.e., disease-causing agent) causing the problem. This means that (1) the species (and strain) of bacteria (or other pathogen) must be identified and (2) the drugs most effective at inhibiting their growth must be determined. The only reliable way his can be done is a culture and sensitivity test.

Here are a couple of her articles (they're also in our own Library):

www.bio.miami.edu/hare/culture.html

www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sneezing.html

Hope this helps!



sas :pray:
 

ra7751

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I was just about to post about how confused I was and then I read Pipp's post. Maybe I missed something but Albon is a sulfanomide...in the same class of drugs as Septra, Bactrim, Sulfatrim, etc. I use Albon in rabbits for only one thing....to help control coccidia....and that is the only thing and it's not real good at doing that. If this problem is a bacterial infection caused by pasteurella....those germs are going to laugh. I don't like to disagree with doctors....because they are doctors and I am not.....but I can't make things work with this treatment. Honestly, this sounds like a treatment from eons ago when very little was known about treating rabbits properly. I think this is headed down a potentially dangerous road.....I suggest pulling off to the side of the road and rethink the routing....in other words, another opinion would be in order. In all seriousness, and in my non-professional opinion, I don't think Albon is the correct line of treatment here.

Randy
 

SnowyShiloh

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Aww :( Randy, what should I do? This vet is the best in Fairbanks (Jen, it's the "good" one, not the one who misdiagnosed Tallulah). I'll feel very weird confronting her about her choice in medications. In the letter I wrote to her, I said that you did not advise treating Skyler Monroe with any sulfamides- I basically quoted exactly what you said in the e-mail, but she prescribed Albon because she said she didn't want to pull out the big guns quite yet. She thinks it's a mild URI and not pasteurella, but how can you diagnose that without testing? On a happy note, little man has been snot free the past couple days and I haven't heard any sneezing. His cage is right here in the living room, so I can hear whatever he does.

Randy, is there any possibility of you mailing me the correct meds or something? I'm going to try to give the vet a call today since I have the day off, and see if we can get him in for testing. Maybe with the results, she'll change her mind on how to treat him...
 

LuvaBun

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oh Shiloh, I'm just seeing about poor little Skyler now. I can't believe that you are going through all this so soon after poor Tallulah :(.

As you know, Pernod is being treated for Pasteurella. She is on Sulfatrim, which i see is one of the meds Randy mentioned as being the same type as Albon. I have to say, she has improved hugely on this, as the Baytril had no effect. Her snotty nose has all but gone, and sheis much happier.

How is Skyler in himself? Isn't it strange that both are Dutch bunnies that travelled huge distances on a plane?

Hope things improve :hug:

Jan
 

SnowyShiloh

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Jan, little man is doing pretty well! If I didn't know he's sick, I wouldn't be able to tell because his little schnozz looks great, nice and clean. Maybe the Albon will work okay for him :? He's got 3 doses so far, and yesterday's definitely went the best. I bought him some organic banana peach oatmeal baby food and crushed the little pill up then mixed it with a tiny bit of baby food, and he ate it off the spoon! Hooray! The night before last, I made the mistake of mixing it with too much baby food and he only took a couple licks off the spoon, so I had to stir in a little water so I could suck it up into the syringe and give it to him that way. He handled it MUCH better than the straight water and pill combo the night before, but he did manage to kick the syrine out of my hand, causing baby food to be sprayed across the back off the couch and the wall behind it!

Something occurred to me yesterday. Could his runny nose have been caused by the stress of me mourning Tallulah? He got the snotty nose the day after she died. The bunny cages are about four feet away from where I'd been sitting, crying hysterically over my little girl's body. At the time, I looked over to see if the other two were okay because I didn't want to scare them, and he was sitting there eating hay seemingly okay, but maybe I stressed him out? Rory behaved differently after she died, too, he's still a little stand offish with me after the biting incident a month ago, but he let me pick him up for cuddles and came over and stuck his head out of his cage for pets for a good minute or so even though I just put food in his bowl. Just something for me to wonder about...
 
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