Scared about dental

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Spikethebunny

Spikethebunny

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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Spike has had a runny eye for a few months now. Our rabbit savvy vet did a thorough exam and thought it could possibly be a tooth issue, but as Spike was eating/drinking/pooping normally and will sit and eat Tim hay for hours, he prescribed drops and left it at that. We talked about x-rays, but as Spike is ten and he heard a bit of a heart murmur, he was hesitant to put him under if he didn't seem to be in any pain, but he did want me to keep a close eye on his eating habits because we would probably have to consider a filing down the line.

Well, this weekend I noticed he was having bouts of soft stool a few hours after having his lettuce. That's when I realized it had been a while since I'd filled his Tim hay, which meant he was eating way more greens than hay. He started refuse lettuce all together, and would only accept pellets (which are hay based and he usually only gets a few). I tried orchard grass hay and he LOVED it. He can't get enough. His poop is normal again and he is very energetic. But he still doesn't want his Tim hay (he wants lettuce, but I've given him less to coax him to eat more hay and to make sure his poop is no longer runny).

Between this and the leaky eye, I'm pretty sure it's time to have his teeth filed, which terrifies me because he'll be put under, and the vet was nervous about doing that in the first place.

Has anyone had to do this with their older bunnies? Am I freaking myself out for no reason? I hate the idea of him being in pain, but I hate the idea of him not waking up from surgery more.
 
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Honestly, if it were me and he is eating a good amount of orchard grass and maintaining a good body weight, I would put off a dental. Rabbits don't have to have timothy hay exclusively. They just need to have some sort of grass hay, which orchard and timothy both are. So if he is eating the orchard grass well and his poop looks good, then I would just let him continue with that and see how he does, keeping a close eye for any significant drop in the amount of hay he eats and drop in body weight, then a dental might need to be considered again. But at his age it is something I would put off unless it became absolutely necessary. A GA can be a big risk at that age.

If he does have any sharp points on his molars, you may find that the orchard grass helps. I know of one rabbit that had frequent dentals each year, that were significantly reduced once put on orchard grass. It has a high silica content which helps promote tooth wear, so can be a good hay for buns with dental issues.

I had an older bun that had weepy eyes too, that couldn't be corrected with eye drops. So due to her age(she was 10), I just managed the condition the best I could. I found the eye drops did help, so continued using them on and off during the last months of her life. She was also on meloxicam, which can prove helpful if there is any inflammation or pain involved(she was actually on it for arthritis though). So if your bun isn't taking it currently, maybe ask your vet about trying it out to see if it helps at all. Your vet may want to have a blood test done first though, to ensure good kidney function if a blood test hasn't been done recently. I found meloxicam was helpful for my bun and helped keep her pain in check and eating well, so she continued taking it twice daily until she passed. If you do try it, you want to make sure your bun is getting a high enough dose for it to actually help. Many inexperienced vets under dose meloxicam in rabbits. Current recommended dose seems to be 0.3-0.6mg/kg, daily. My bun was on 0.6mg/kg, split into a twice daily dose, as that was what was needed to help control her arthritis pain. This link has info on meloxicam use with rabbits as well as references for the dosing info in case you need it.
http://vgr1.com/metacam/

It can get a bit tricky managing our buns health issues as they get older. Sometimes treatment isn't always the best option due to the risks involved. So the risk does have to be carefully weighed vs. how well they are coping and eating otherwise.
 
Thanks, JBun. My gut is really telling me to avoid the dental if I can, too. I just talked to the vet on the phone and she said she'd be hesitant to book him for surgery before doing things like bloodwork and a thorough check up due to his age. They did recommend bringing him in, anyway, as the last time he was there was December. My only issue is we are having a heat wave, so I'm not sure about bringing him in hundred degree weather unless it is an absolute emergency (I don't drive).

He is currently eating orchard grass at the moment (he comes running when I open the bag), and his poop looks normal. If he stays normal, I'm hoping I can wait for the heat wave to end to bring him in.

I just don't want him to be in pain. It would be awful to know he is in pain and I'm not doing anything. I'll ask about the meloxicam when I bring him in, too.

Sigh...pets are so hard. I wish they could just tell us what's going on. I'm so worried I'm going to make a wrong move here, either way.
 
The best way to judge if a rabbit is in too much pain is by changes in behavior and eating habits. A rabbit that is in too much pain will generally not eat well or sometimes stop eating altogether, and will often behave differently such as being unusually subdued, lethargic and not moving much or hiding, or even being uncharacteristically aggressive. If your bun is eating well enough that his poop is pretty normal looking, and is behaving fairly normally, I would guess that if he is in any pain, that it's not too bad.

I wouldn't want to subject a bun to excessive heat either, without having an air conditioned car to take it in. That kind of heat could actually be quite dangerous for a rabbit to be in. I don't even like my buns to be out in weather that is over 85F.
 
JBun said:
The best way to judge if a rabbit is in too much pain is by changes in behavior and eating habits. A rabbit that is in too much pain will generally not eat well or sometimes stop eating altogether, and will often behave differently such as being unusually subdued, lethargic and not moving much or hiding, or even being uncharacteristically aggressive. If your bun is eating well enough that his poop is pretty normal looking, and is behaving fairly normally, I would guess that if he is in any pain, that it's not too bad.

I wouldn't want to subject a bun to excessive heat either, without having an air conditioned car to take it in. That kind of heat could actually be quite dangerous for a rabbit to be in. I don't even like my buns to be out in weather that is over 85F.
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Thank you. Other than avoiding Tim hay, he's not acting like he is in pain (though, now I wonder if he's avoiding Tim hay cause he prefers the orchard). He comes running when the fridge opens, loves being pet, runs around the apartment, etc.

I am concerned about the few bouts of mushy poops I've seen, but that was before we realized he would eat the orchard when he didn't want Tim, so we've decreased his lettuce portion (he always has unlimited hay) to see. As of last night into this morning, his litter box was full off perfect poops and pee. Would you continue to limit lettuce until it's been at least a day or so of them being better. I feel so bad cause he keeps looking at me for his lettuce snacks.
 
Okay, I gave in and booked him an apt with the vet first thing tomorrow morning (hopefully before the heat of the day kicks in). I'll have the vet look him over and run some tests. I've never had his blood taken. Is it painful for them?

I'm so nervous to take him, but he had another mushy poop bout this afternoon (it happens at the same time every day???) so I think he needs to go see someone. Wish us luck. We will both be nervous wrecks.
 
Have them check the back teeth for spikes before sedation--the vet was able to check our buns teeth. One was fine and the other needed filing. We don't use timothy at all as I am allergic to it--ours get orchard grass and we get compressed timothy cubes that they also love. Had to cut down on the greens with some of our older buns and gave more parsley and way less lettuce. Also switched to and all timothy pellet without any alfalfa in it and the poopy butt went away.
 
In terms of getting blood drawn, it is painful- but less than stubbing a toe. If you've ever had blood taken, it's the same. It's just a little poke- more rabbits squirm while they are being held for it before the actual poke. If he has teeth issues, I'd also suggest the Kaytee Timothy cubes (they are basically bricks of hay) which are very hard and need a lot of chewing.

The problem with checking the back teeth for spikes before sedation is that you'll never be able to see quite as well without the sedation. If the spikes are bad enough, you'll be able to see them- but if they are minor, you will not without sedation. Many older rabbits still do quite well under sedation- but as your vet says- do a thorough work up first. Just in case.
 
Thank you, everyone, for your replies! We spent part of the morning at the vet. I was a little worried cause his usual vet was away, but the one who took over was just as amazing, and VERY bunny savvy.

She did a thorough exam (including blood work and tooth exam without x-rays) and said she was incredibly pleased with how he looks for his age. His blood work came back perfect. She did spot points on either side of his molars, but she said they are small and they are even on both sides. She also concurred with his regular vet that he has a heart murmur (she even explained the sound his heart made), which makes the procedure to file the teeth down riskier. She said she has successfully done it on bunnies Spike's age who have a murmur, but she doesn't recommend it if he is still eating a lot of hay (she said orchard grass is just fine). She did recommend cutting down the lettuce until there are no more runny poops (each day there are less and less).

She did feel a bit of loss of muscle mass in the hind legs, which she thinks is an indication of arthritis setting in. Since his blood came back clear, she does want to try him on a lin anti-inflammatory. She also suggested adding a tiny bit of alfalfa hay to his regular hay cause he could use the protein. But I was always under the impression adult buns shouldn't have it? Anyone have more info on that?

Overall, a good check up, and she shook my hand at the end for being such a great owner. We shall keep an eye on him regarding the teeth right now, and he will have to go back for more blood work in six months to make sure the pain killer isn't having any ill effects.
 
You didn't mention the runny eye. I t could be a clogged tear duct.
 
Sigh...

So it has been three weeks and we are still seeing some soft stools (about 1-5 a day. The rest of the time, his stool is normal, and we are seeing that some of them are a bit more formed than they used to me). His diet down to only hay and water, with small doses of critical care twice a day just to give him some nutrition (per his vet because she doesn't want him losing muscle mass with his arthritis). He is taking metacam twice a day for his teeth and his arthritis. He is eating a lot of hay and drinking a ton of water.

We do notice that he is moving better than he has in months (he is so hungry! He comes running when we go in the kitchen cause he wants his lettuce). But other than that, I can see he is miserable. He's peeing on the floor a couple times a day, where he used to have impeccable litter habits. I used to see him flop a few times a day. I haven't seen that in over a month. I notice he is rocking a lot when he is sleeping (he has ALWAYS done this, but it seems more violent to me now, though I don't know if that's just cause I'm watching him so much, or if it has anything to do with his heart murmur. I have been listening to his breathing, and he isn't wheezing or anything).

His eye is still watering, and last night when I was petting him, I felt matted fur under his chin, which I think is a sign of drooling? He does drink from a water bowl and usually sticks half his face in it, but I don't think I've noticed the fur beneath his chin being matted before (though, he hated me touching there, so I very rarely do). I didn't feel any dampness on his mouth or chin or nose, just dry, matter fur. And he freaked out when I tried to comb it with my fingers and ran and hid.

One of the techs at my vet (they mostly deal with rabbits) said she has successfully done x-rays on buns without anesthetic, as long as the bunny is pretty docile (Spike just sits there and shakes at the vet, so she said that makes him a good candidate for this). She has said we can try that to see what is going on.

I really don't know what to do. Even if x-rays show it is dental, his heart may not be strong enough for anesthetic and surgery. Do I give this more time? Bring him in now? My poor little guy. I just want him to be happy and healthy.

(Mind you, I have to wonder how much his teeth hurt, since he tries to rip the metacam syringe from me every day, haha).
 
The wetness under his chin is likely from drinking from the bowl. When my fiance and I see Pippi drinking from her bowl, we always say she's getting her beard wet (then she gives us this sassy look that clearly states, "ugh, humans... just because I'm furry doesn't mean I'm bearded!") Her chin is always wet directly after drinking, so I don't think that's anything you need to worry about. The other things I would be concerned about, but not the wet chin. I do hope he gets to feeling better, poor sweetheart <3
 
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