(RIP) Pasteurella?? (molar spurs)

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MILU

MILU

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
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Location
*formerly, hotmaildeal, , Brazil
Hi everybody, here I am again..
I guess some of you may remember me and my bunny's case. He's a 5-yar old male rabbit.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.phpid=53715&forum_id=16&highlight=emergency?

Once again, for those who didn't follow my previous trend, I'm in Brazil and our vets aren't the best. They're actually bad and even kill animals who could have been saved.

In the end, like I first heard from this website's great contributors, my bunny had teeth problems (spurs) and had 4 teeth filed. Came back home and could eat again.

But now I suspect he may have pasteurella. He's been weird. Doesn't want to eat what were his favorite fresh leaves (only carrot leaves), wants to eat more pellets (changed food preferences) and a couple bites of fruit. He still plays but has gotten more lethargic.

The weird thing (which I thought was/ is (?) a tooth problem recurrence) is that he makes some weird noises. Nothing I've ever heard.

Besides what seems to be noise coming from his throat area, he also makes different noises coming from inside other areas of his body. His breathing has no whistling sounds (so I guess it's not yet pneumonia). A little eye discharge is present, and he has nose discharge (in that lip crack between his nose and mouth). I thought that was drooling.. but no...

Today - I've just noticed - he's sneezing, not like he has before, but heavily and more often. When I approached him some hours ago, he sneezed with a noise like mucus inside him. That was the 1st time I've heard this sort of noise. The other noises he makes are weird, but not like mucus. I can't even define. It's weird. Some are like a honk, some like a small dog's cry (but fast like a honk) some like squeezing a rubber ducky. I know these aren't the best definitions ever, but I can't define them better - if at all. I hear these noises randomly, but I noticed them somewhat commonly when he changes position, eats or when I

I brought my bunny to my room with me and I noticed some thick white stuff in my arm, that came from his nose. I started cleaning his nose and there's more and more. He's still sneezing - not heavily anymore, but often.

Another curious thing is that he keeps "chewing" all the time. Technically, chewing nothing. (so I thought it could be a tooth problem again).

What can I give to save him?
I'll surely take him to vets again tomorrow, but if you could give me instructions and opinions, I surely trust you more. Last time YOU guys saved my bunny. Our vets didn't even see he had spurs. They only saw after I told them YOU said so.

* hmm .. I've been bringing my bunny into my room to keep him warmer. I thought of keeping him here until he's ok. I closed the windows and the door. Can I catch this bacteria? Can this be harmful to me? People tell me not to bring my bunny here.. but I want to stay with him...

Sorry for disturbing you again but I prefer to seek for the BEST help for my bunny, and YOU are the best. Thank you.

:bunnyheart
 
Well, unless you are immune-compromised, there's very little you can catch from your bunny, so don't worry about getting sick from him.

I think he may have an upper respiratory infection because the snot is not clear. However, tooth issues can still cause all the symptoms you're describing, although they usually show up with clear mucus.

The link isn't working, could you please fix it? I don't remember what drugs are available and what diagnostics you've had done. Head x-rays would be wonderful to see the tooth roots.
 
Thanks, I'm happy to know I can keep my bunny here with me.

There's a x-ray on my previous post, it was taken in January.

Previous post - click here: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=53715&forum_id=16&highlight=emergency?

I can't edit the previous post yet (it says I can only edit it after 2 hours.) I'm not very good with these things, hope it works now!

Anyway, my bunny has had 4 teeth filed in January. No medicine except for right after the procedure. In the previous topic Randy suggested antibiotics for root abscess, but then another vet (from Canada, someone from here indicated me to him, who saw x-rays online) said he didn't see any abscess - and as it was really hard to find a vet here who could give my bunny antibiotics, so I was glad to hear there was no abscess.. Now I feel more lumps under my bunny's chin. I'm not sure if that would be abscesses or pasteurella as I read in Google (or if it's both).

I'm worried 'cause about this thick white mucus and again my bunny sneezed heavy and noisily. And all the noises from inside his body are weird too. They're not bloating noises, they're very different.
 
This sounds like a really bad infection which may or may not be caused by a reoccurence of the dental issues or something else; this bun needs antibiotics right away and probably also get another dental check , dental, head and chestx-rays. A culture of the exudate should be done to narrow down the effective antibiotics butin the meantime the medication that Randy mentioned in your first threadcould be started.

I know that your vet said that he had azithromycin. Possibly you can ask the vet to start this ASAP. The other drug would be injectable penicillin ( or bicillin ) whch is mixed with lactated ringer solution so that it can be injected easier and also to prevent the formarton of sterile abscesses. These injection are given every other day under the skin.(SQ)
I have a rabbit who is on bicillin as a maintenance drug andI give these injections all the time and can assure you that injectable bicillin will not hurt a rabbit whatsoever whereas oral penicillin will.

I will give you the printout describing the effectiveness of bicillin for abscesses (which it sounds like your rabbit also has) ; bicillin is a broad spectrum antibiotic so is good for many infections.

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm


http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

Azithromycin is dosed 30-50 mg /kg and is given orally. it sometimes causes a reduction in appetite but oftentimes the owner can assist the rabbit during this period.
The bicillin probably can be obtained through farm supply stores. here it is actually marketed for cattle under names like Duo-pen Dura -pen , Twin _pen . This drug must be refrigerated
Bottom line is that it contains 150,000 u procaine pencillin G and 150,000 u benzathine penicllin Gwith a total of 300,000 u per ml. The specific dosage for rabbits is contained in the medi-rabbit chart of safe antibiotics.

it would be fine to start the azithromycin while you are exploring the bicillin or trying to get it.
 
About the azithromycin, can I use the same used for humans? I'm not sure if vet was talking about this kind. I know we have it for humans. Is it liquid or solid? (I've just seen ous is like 500 mg - I'd have to crack the pill, I suppose.. but we may have the one for animals)..

What is the "lactated ringer solution"? I've never heard of it. Also the bicillin should be mixed with it or only penicillin?
 
Bicillin is 2 kinds of penicillin and is in one bottle ;it is the effect of the 2 drugs ( one short acting and 1 longer acting working together) that is effective

lactated ringers is an electrolyte solution like the kinds of bags of solution hung for and administered to sick people who are dehydrated and in shock etc.
The doctor will know and have lactated ringers solution at his office and can give you a bag. you can use a sterile needle to withdraw a small amount to mix with the penicllin . You only need to mix a few ccs of it with the penicillin in a syringe.

You could also use sterile water for injection which comes in 30 ml bottles. the vet may also have these at this office.

Azithromycin (human) is the same used on animals . In the US it comes in a liquid cherry form which is fairly easy to give to a rabbit (although expensive)

It is possible that if that the doctor can call a compounding pharmacy that the azithromycin 500 mg tabs can be compounded into a flavored liquid medication for your rabbit.

It may be possible for you to crush tablets and mix up each dose but way more difficult and you would need to get a flavoring for it ( sugar free syrup used for flavoring coffee?)vets here usually have liquid used for flavoring but i am not sure if it is availabe there.

Iwill be at the shelter most of today so others will assist you ; many people on this forum have given both types of this drug .
The vet needs to weigh the rabbit to calculate the dosage of azithromycin which is somewhere between 30-50 mg per kg. A kg is about 2.2 lbs.
The trade name here for azithromycin is Zithromax ; Zithromax comes in a flavored cherry form for kids and can be obtained by prescription from a pharmacy.
Good Luck
 
I went to a compound pharmacy and will have the azithromycin prepared for my rabbit.
However, the pharmacist asked me to tell him for how many days it shall be administered. I already know it's given orally once a day = TKS, Angieluv!

My rabbit weight is about 2.5 kilos (or a little less now) so the pharmacist said that, if the appropriate amount is 30-50 mg/Kg, he'll make it 70mg - do you agree with this?

He also asked if I want it liquid or solid, and he'll add flavor :) (is there any rabbits like most? hehe)

As long as I have these questions answered I'll go back there and have it prepared for my bun.

Thanks again.
 
*** Nobody seems to know what Bicllin is, as well as Twin Pen (and all other "pens"). I'll keep on searching though, and if I can't find it perhaps I could have it prepared too.. at least I hope so.
 
* I asked about flavor 'cause my bun doesn't like the cherry flavor in simethicone. :embarrassed:
But that surely isn't as important as the rest.
Thanks a lot for all your help. I wish I could meet you in person!
 
Bunnies often like banana flavoring. I haven't given my guys compounded medicine before, but I think banana, strawberry, grape, even orange would be enjoyed. Last night I got attacked by my two while eating a grapefruit! Imagine that! I would have thought they wouldn't be interested in it. Just go by whatever fruit your bunny likes best.

70 mg sounds a bit low for a dose. It's usually best to dose at the higher end for zithromax, unless your bunny gets a GI upset from it. I would think 100 mg for a dose would be a good choice for a 2.5 kilo bunny.

A liquid would be easiest.

Angieluv answered your question about lactated ringer's already, but I wanted to add that there are other things you can dilute the bicillin with, like sterile saline for injection. They're all products you can only find at a pharmacy, doctor, or some stores that cater to people who farm livestock and routinely administer drugs on their own. I'll see if I can do a bit more hunting for some bicillin in Brazil online.

It looks to me like there is an abscess on the jaw there, but again, I need to look at it more closely (when I get more time today at work ;) ). This is a really useful article about the connection between upper respiratory problems and tooth problems:
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sneezing.html
 
From what I've found, it seems that penicillin G is found in two forms in Brazil: penicillin G procaine, and penicillin G potasssium. I can't find the penicillin G benzathine. Bicillin (and all those other drugs) is a 1:1 mixture of penicillin G benzathine and penicillin G procaine. This mixture is good because it contains a fast-acting penicillin G form, and a slow-acting form of penicillin G. Therefore you get a large initial "burst" dose of the drug, and a longer sustained release of a lower concentration. You might want to ask your vet if he knows if penicillin G benzathine is available in Brazil, and/or where to get it. You can mix the two forms of penicillin together if you can find each separately.

I found this, with lots of radiographs of bunny teeth.
http://animaldentalcenterswisconsin.evetsites.net/site/view/112370_RabbitRodentDentalCare.pml

I am not an expert at all, but I'll point out on your x-rays you posted in the last topic what I think might be issues, based on what I've read.
 
Well for some reason photobucket isn't working for me.

MILU3.jpg


That's your pic. I circled some areas on it in paint but can't post the edited pic. I am concerned about a few things.
1) the bottom molar roots on all molars except the one farthest back seem to be penetrating pretty deeply into the jaw bone.
2) all of the bottom molars have clearish (black) areas around their bases, which look like pockets of infection to my totally untrained eye.
3) The top molar roots look long to me too, mostly because they aren't all the same length.

edit: wanted to mention that I know that the teeth have been trimmed on the exposed part, so the circled areas where the tips of the molars are overgrown shouldn't be an issue anymore.
 
Well, I got the azithromycin - in the end they sold me he children's version instead of compounded.
We don't have grapefruit here (I've never seen it at least) or I'd buy it for my bun! How cute to think of your bunnies attacking you. haha

Thanks for the dosage suggestion on azithrmycin. How many days should I give it to my bunny? 3 days, 5 days?

A vet also told me to solve acetylcysteine in saline solution and make inhalation 2x a day. Do you think that's a good thing?

No Biciclin found yet.

Randy saw an abscess there too, and in january I tried to find someone to give my bun the combo and no vets wanted to do it. I hope I'm luckier this time.
 
Well, bicillin plus zithromax would be the best. Zithromax may be able to do it on its own, but it also may not. You can try the azithromycin for a week and see if there's improvement, and if not, try to add a second antibiotic like bicillin. He'll need at least 14 days, probably more, of any treatment, to make sure the abscess is totally gone and the bacteria are all killed. They have to have the drugs for a few days after the abscess appears to have totally disappeared, to make sure all the bacteria are gone.

Other options are Convenia, maybe amoxicillin? You could probably do just penicillin G procaine, since they have that there, but the dosing might be different. Since the zithromyacin is an oral drug, you'd want to go with an injectible as the second drug, just to preserve the GI flora.

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm
 
Penicillin G procaine forms a depot, where the drug dissolves into the body over time. Penicillin G benzathine appears to be longer acting. Maybe a course of Penicillin G procaine every day, instead of bicillin every other day, would be sufficient?
 
You guys are spectacular! THANKS!

I'm starting with Azithromycin tonight and will give it for 7 days. Is it cool to give him acidophilus to help the GI flora?

Is it ok if I give only Azithromycin for some days (without the injectable penicillin at the same time)? I don't know how long it will take until I can find the other stuff + a vet who's willing to simply give the injections! I guess if I can't find anyone, and I find the antibiotic, I'll try to administer it myself. Gonna build the guts to do it!

I know we have Amoxicillin (at least the human form).

My pharmacist is willing to help and asked if Benzetacil would help. I guess it's benzyl penicillin benzatine (600 000 IU BENZETACIL). Is it one of the kinds of penicillin on Twin Pen? Could I try to get both kinds and mix them if I don't find the real thing?
 
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