RO STAFF 2
Well-Known Member
Here's a note that Pam posted in her Update thread in the Rabbits Only main section, but we thought we'd also duplicate it here. 
pamnock wrote:
pamnock wrote:
Request From Pam Nock
- Thread starter RO STAFF 2
- Start date
Help Support Rabbits Online Forum:
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Thanks so much for posting my request!
I have the Chestnut Agouti page done
http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/chestnut-agouti.html
as well as a little info on basic genetics
http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/coat_colors.html
Corrections, suggestions and typo alerts are most welcome!
Pam
I have the Chestnut Agouti page done
http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/chestnut-agouti.html
as well as a little info on basic genetics
http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/coat_colors.html
Corrections, suggestions and typo alerts are most welcome!
Pam
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
Pam,
I love what you've done so far. Here is what I'd like to see...
on the chestnut page - can you take a picture of the underbelly to show what it looks like? what about blowing into the fur and taking a picture of that too so we can see the rings better?
On the genetics information - I'd love to see more about what is the difference between a vienna marked rabbit and a "mismark". Are they the same thing? (I thought they had to have blue eyes to be vienna carriers - but I'm not sure). How likely is a mismark rabbit to throw more mismarks in a litter?
On your general genetics information page (not coat colors) - could you include something about the genes for malocclusion? How if you get a litter with this....both parents have to be carriers...and what the chances are for the babies to be carriers even if they have good teeth? Maybe follow that down a generation or two also? How if you took a baby who had a 50% chance of bad teeth (not knowing it at first) and mated it with someone w/ no malocclusion gene - what are the odds that their babies will have this gene? I don't know if I'm making sense.
It is so GOOD to see you back - and I love what you're doing on your website!
Peg
I love what you've done so far. Here is what I'd like to see...
on the chestnut page - can you take a picture of the underbelly to show what it looks like? what about blowing into the fur and taking a picture of that too so we can see the rings better?
On the genetics information - I'd love to see more about what is the difference between a vienna marked rabbit and a "mismark". Are they the same thing? (I thought they had to have blue eyes to be vienna carriers - but I'm not sure). How likely is a mismark rabbit to throw more mismarks in a litter?
On your general genetics information page (not coat colors) - could you include something about the genes for malocclusion? How if you get a litter with this....both parents have to be carriers...and what the chances are for the babies to be carriers even if they have good teeth? Maybe follow that down a generation or two also? How if you took a baby who had a 50% chance of bad teeth (not knowing it at first) and mated it with someone w/ no malocclusion gene - what are the odds that their babies will have this gene? I don't know if I'm making sense.
It is so GOOD to see you back - and I love what you're doing on your website!
Peg
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Hi Peg -- I knew you would have some excellent ideas because you ask such good questions! I'm printing out your reply so I can cover the info you would like to see.
As for the malocclusion -- for years it has been taught that malocclusion was the result of simple recessive inheritance, but there is no current scientific evidence to support this.
I had consulted a geneticist specializing in the field ofOrthodontics whohad published a paper on one of the genes associated with malocclusion, but said that there are actually many genes responsible for the alignment of teeth (polygenic) including genes that regulate rate of jaw growth as well as jaw width, length and the jaw angle (aprimary factor in mandibular prognathism aka "wolf" teeth). There has been speculation that the genetic defect of "wolf teeth" irregularly dominant gene but with variable penetrance.
It hasnot been determined if it is actually the result of multiple gene aberrations or of one alone. Environmental as well as genetic factors of the actual tooth development also play a roll.
The geneticist stressed that there is still much more at this point in time that is "not" known that what has actually been proven.
This website has extensive info and references for further reading:
http://jorthod.maneyjournals.org/cgi/content/full/26/2/103
Although we may not know the exact modes of inheritance of malocclusion, it is advised not to use animals for breeding that have malocclusion or that have produced offspring with malocclusion.
Pam
http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/
As for the malocclusion -- for years it has been taught that malocclusion was the result of simple recessive inheritance, but there is no current scientific evidence to support this.
I had consulted a geneticist specializing in the field ofOrthodontics whohad published a paper on one of the genes associated with malocclusion, but said that there are actually many genes responsible for the alignment of teeth (polygenic) including genes that regulate rate of jaw growth as well as jaw width, length and the jaw angle (aprimary factor in mandibular prognathism aka "wolf" teeth). There has been speculation that the genetic defect of "wolf teeth" irregularly dominant gene but with variable penetrance.
It hasnot been determined if it is actually the result of multiple gene aberrations or of one alone. Environmental as well as genetic factors of the actual tooth development also play a roll.
The geneticist stressed that there is still much more at this point in time that is "not" known that what has actually been proven.
This website has extensive info and references for further reading:
http://jorthod.maneyjournals.org/cgi/content/full/26/2/103
Although we may not know the exact modes of inheritance of malocclusion, it is advised not to use animals for breeding that have malocclusion or that have produced offspring with malocclusion.
Pam
http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/
pamnock
Well-Known Member
TinysMom wrote:
The terms "mismark" or "sport" are often used in reference to incorrect markings and do not necessarily refer to vienna carriers. 50% will be of normal color.
Vienna carriers may not necessarily show any obvious mismark and may not necessarily have blue or marbled eyes. In some cases, they appear to be a normally colored rabbit.
If 2 carriers are bred together, 25% will be normal color, 50% will be carriers and 25% will be BEW.
A heterozygous vienna carrier is 50% likely to throw mismarks when bred to a homozygous BEW.
Pam
The terms "mismark" or "sport" are often used in reference to incorrect markings and do not necessarily refer to vienna carriers. 50% will be of normal color.
Vienna carriers may not necessarily show any obvious mismark and may not necessarily have blue or marbled eyes. In some cases, they appear to be a normally colored rabbit.
If 2 carriers are bred together, 25% will be normal color, 50% will be carriers and 25% will be BEW.
A heterozygous vienna carrier is 50% likely to throw mismarks when bred to a homozygous BEW.
Pam
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
Well Pam - here are things I struggle with when I look at a litter....
Is that a sable point or siamese sable? Chestnut or chinchilla? Otter or marten or what? blue or lilac?
When I go to plan a breeding I struggle with things like:
What should I take this sable chin to? (What is compatible for color - I also consider type too).....What about this marten - can I use her in my otter program? Wow - I have a squirrel...what should I breed her with?
Then I have the situations of "How did I get a harlequin from this chestnut doe that mated to a blue buck?" and then "Why when I mated the same chestnut doe to a harlequin buck...did I get ALL chestnuts?"
I also struggle with understanding dominances of things like ears - are short ears dominant? Long ears? short body? Long body?
Peg
Is that a sable point or siamese sable? Chestnut or chinchilla? Otter or marten or what? blue or lilac?
When I go to plan a breeding I struggle with things like:
What should I take this sable chin to? (What is compatible for color - I also consider type too).....What about this marten - can I use her in my otter program? Wow - I have a squirrel...what should I breed her with?
Then I have the situations of "How did I get a harlequin from this chestnut doe that mated to a blue buck?" and then "Why when I mated the same chestnut doe to a harlequin buck...did I get ALL chestnuts?"
I also struggle with understanding dominances of things like ears - are short ears dominant? Long ears? short body? Long body?
Peg
pamnock
Well-Known Member
TinysMom wrote:
Hi Peg,
I am going to try to put together some info on color compatibilities. Part of the problem with tackling compatibilities issues is that what works in one breed shouldn't be done in another. For instance, in breeds that accept chocolate torts, it is fine to breed chocolates into tort lines. But because chocolate torts aren't accepted for English Spots or Dutch, chocolate should never be mixed into tort lines.
So, without getting into a huge project encompassing all 47 breeds, I'll probably stick to generalizations about each color and what colors are generally compatible.
As for the inheritance of features such as ear length, body type, etc.. . These features are not inherited by simple dominant/recessives, but by quantitative (polygenic) genes. In quantitative genetics, many genes contribute to particular traits with the effects being additive. This type of inheritance also allows for a wide range of variability.
Pam
http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/
Hi Peg,
I am going to try to put together some info on color compatibilities. Part of the problem with tackling compatibilities issues is that what works in one breed shouldn't be done in another. For instance, in breeds that accept chocolate torts, it is fine to breed chocolates into tort lines. But because chocolate torts aren't accepted for English Spots or Dutch, chocolate should never be mixed into tort lines.
So, without getting into a huge project encompassing all 47 breeds, I'll probably stick to generalizations about each color and what colors are generally compatible.
As for the inheritance of features such as ear length, body type, etc.. . These features are not inherited by simple dominant/recessives, but by quantitative (polygenic) genes. In quantitative genetics, many genes contribute to particular traits with the effects being additive. This type of inheritance also allows for a wide range of variability.
Pam
http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/
pamnock
Well-Known Member
TinysMom wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion Peg. Matthew and I went out to the barn tonight and took photos of the aguoti belly as well as some shots of the effects of the wideband and steel genes on the agouti coats. I took the pics with my 35mm camera and will be sending them out in the mail, so won't have them up for a couple weeks. Hope they turn out well!
Pam
Thanks for the suggestion Peg. Matthew and I went out to the barn tonight and took photos of the aguoti belly as well as some shots of the effects of the wideband and steel genes on the agouti coats. I took the pics with my 35mm camera and will be sending them out in the mail, so won't have them up for a couple weeks. Hope they turn out well!
Pam
lanna21974
Well-Known Member
A good simplified explanation of the steel gene. That one still confuses me.
pamnock
Well-Known Member
I'll most certainly be posting info on the steel gene.
The steel gene shows it's effect only on the agouti and tan pattern coats. If a rabbit inherits one copy of the dominant steel Es gene, the gene has the effect of partially filling in agouti pattern white or red areas of the coat with grayish color. This is why the intermediate band is no longer visible on the agouti steel coat.
Common steel colors includegold tipped blacksteel (chestnut agouti steel), silver tipped black steel (chinchilla steel), gold tipped blue steel (opal steel), silver tipped blue steel (squirrel steel or smoke pearl steel), silver tipped sable steel (sable agouti steel), gold tipped chocolate steel (chocolate agouti steel), gold tipped lilac steel (true lynx steel aka lilac agouti steel), as well as any other agouti coat color variations. (only the gold tipped black steel is accepted in the Netherland Dwarfs)
A tan pattern rabbit would have a gray belly when it inherits the steel gene (no breed accepts a tan pattern color with the steel gene).
Interestingly, the homozygous combination of steel EsEs adds so much dark filler to the coat, that the animal may appear to be a black self or may just show steel patches on the coat. Non-agouti self rabbits such as blacks do not show the effects of the steel gene at all because the entire hair shaft is already "filled" in. The steel gene itself does not produce ticking as the silvering gene does.
Non-extension colors such as red and orange cannot be steeled because the only way to produce red/orange/fawn is homozygous "ee". The combination of the steel and non-extension gene (Ese) is believed to produce poorly marked steels.
See this site for steel photos:
http://www.geocities.com/karinvail/ticked.html
Pam
Photo of steel Netherland Dwarf from:
http://islandgems.net/compatible-colors.html
The steel gene shows it's effect only on the agouti and tan pattern coats. If a rabbit inherits one copy of the dominant steel Es gene, the gene has the effect of partially filling in agouti pattern white or red areas of the coat with grayish color. This is why the intermediate band is no longer visible on the agouti steel coat.
Common steel colors includegold tipped blacksteel (chestnut agouti steel), silver tipped black steel (chinchilla steel), gold tipped blue steel (opal steel), silver tipped blue steel (squirrel steel or smoke pearl steel), silver tipped sable steel (sable agouti steel), gold tipped chocolate steel (chocolate agouti steel), gold tipped lilac steel (true lynx steel aka lilac agouti steel), as well as any other agouti coat color variations. (only the gold tipped black steel is accepted in the Netherland Dwarfs)
A tan pattern rabbit would have a gray belly when it inherits the steel gene (no breed accepts a tan pattern color with the steel gene).
Interestingly, the homozygous combination of steel EsEs adds so much dark filler to the coat, that the animal may appear to be a black self or may just show steel patches on the coat. Non-agouti self rabbits such as blacks do not show the effects of the steel gene at all because the entire hair shaft is already "filled" in. The steel gene itself does not produce ticking as the silvering gene does.
Non-extension colors such as red and orange cannot be steeled because the only way to produce red/orange/fawn is homozygous "ee". The combination of the steel and non-extension gene (Ese) is believed to produce poorly marked steels.
See this site for steel photos:
http://www.geocities.com/karinvail/ticked.html
Pam
Photo of steel Netherland Dwarf from:
http://islandgems.net/compatible-colors.html
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Thank you I've been trying to workon more graphics and get all thevariety groups up.http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/
I'm going to be busy over the next couple months with shows, but I'll try to continue working on my project
Pam
I've been trying to workon more graphics and get all thevariety groups up.http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/I'm going to be busy over the next couple months with shows, but I'll try to continue working on my project
Pam
Starlight Rabbitry
Well-Known Member
AWESOME site Pam!!! I find the genetics portion very easy for me to understand!! Thank You for all your hard work. I will be printing it for my use.
Sharon:bunnydance:
Sharon:bunnydance:
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Thank you Sharon, I appreciate any info on the ease of understanding the information, or any areas that are unclear/confusing. Eventually, each variety will have its own detailed page like the Chestnut Agouti page http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/chestnut-agouti.html
Pam
Pam
