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Luv-bunniz

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Anybody else watching this ? I think its horrible, all the breeders are talking absolute b******s!.
With the Ridgeback dogs "a dog without the ridge is a deformed dog" - erm NO! a dog that has a ridge is deformed!

With the mother-son, father-daughter, grandaughter-grandfather and grandmother-grandson one of the camera people said:

"Would you have a baby with your grandaughter"
Judge: "No, but thats a totally different matter"
Camera people: "its the same matter"

and seeing the changes of the dog breeds is just sick. :cry4:
 
Actually the line breeding(mother-son, grandad-granddaughter, etc) is diffrent in animals. It is used to produce better typed animals, seeing as people are not showed(besided beauti contest) it is totally diffrent. Animals do not like like "EWW, I'm not gonna knockup my mom!".

I believe many breeders have horrible opinions but they are not all that bad.
 
bunnybunbunb wrote:
Actually the line breeding(mother-son, grandad-granddaughter, etc) is diffrent in animals. It is used to produce better typed animals, seeing as people are not showed(besided beauti contest) it is totally diffrent. Animals do not like like "EWW, I'm not gonna knockup my mom!".
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Very true. If you don't like line breeding, then I will gurantee you, you will have an argument with every rabbit breeder on here. There is a big difference in line breeding and inbreeding, BTW, in case that is what you were thinking of.
 
Inbreeding? not at all - I have spent alot of time in the past few years looking at genetics, breedings etc in dogs (and rabbits, guinea pigs and cats, I might add!), otherwise I wouldnt have even had that opinion ;) I just don't agree with line breeding either way. Its not as if the dogs can talk and say "Its ok, I dont mind knocking up my mother/grand mother" or "its ok, I dont mind having a baby with my father/grandfather"
 
Um-when left to their own choices they will do it anyway. That's why you can't leave an uneutered boy bunny in with his mom--cause he will mate with her. Animals don't share our feelings about things like that. Besides--it would be difficult to actually force an animal to mate, unless you are using AI. :)
 
I just watched it. It was so sad :(

I think the problem with dogs is much greater because its a bigger sport than rabbit breeding. The thing about the ridgeback dogs really wound me up, when they were saying that any puppies without the ridge should be put down, because 'they are supposed to have the ridge' when infact its a form of spina bifida.

It does make me worry about rabbits. My vet told me Lotties eye problems aren't helped by the fact she is a lop and also her face is very flat, meaning all her tubes are alot more tightly packed than they would usually be.

Fran :) :hearts :brownbunny
 
I really don't know anything about the Ridgeback breed, but I do agree that it is ridiculous to say any pup with no ridge should be put down. I have a feeeling, though, that it is probably AR people that made this show, so most of this is probably exagerrated. I'm not saying that there aren't breeders like that, but there are also a lot of very caring, responsible breeders out there as well.
 
Just watched a portion of it on the BBC news website, and I agree that some of the breedings (Cavaliers sp?) are very sad of how the breeding has really taken a toll on the health of the breed. Breeding has brought a lot of great traits and personalities, but also brought a lot of negative traits.

ETA (again..).. I found the show on youtube, and it is incredibly sad the stories they focused on (brought me to tears).


 
Hey Spring, would you be able to post a link to the You Tube vid? I haven't been able to find it, and I am really curious as to what this show is all about.
 
pinksalamander wrote:
I just watched it. It was so sad :(

I think the problem with dogs is much greater because its a bigger sport than rabbit breeding. The thing about the ridgeback dogs really wound me up, when they were saying that any puppies without the ridge should be put down, because 'they are supposed to have the ridge' when infact its a form of spina bifida.

It does make me worry about rabbits. My vet told me Lotties eye problems aren't helped by the fact she is a lop and also her face is very flat, meaning all her tubes are alot more tightly packed than they would usually be.

Fran :) :hearts :brownbunny
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I'm just wondering where you heard about the ridge being spinal, because as far as any breeder I've I've talked to knows... It's just a patch of fur running the opposite way- It's also the AKC's definition of the ridge. I don't agree that they should be put down if the ridge doesn't appear, though. Thats as bad as how registering puppies used to be, too.
 
gentle giants wrote:
Um-when left to their own choices they will do it anyway. That's why you can't leave an uneutered boy bunny in with his mom--cause he will mate with her. Animals don't share our feelings about things like that. Besides--it would be difficult to actually force an animal to mate, unless you are using AI. :)"

My dog is an example of this. He was from an acidental father daughter breeding. She went into heat before she was taken away from the group and daddy went by nature. These were all my grandparents dogs, back when they used to breed and show. And I just have to say, not all breeders kill dogs just because they don't fit the grain and all that stuff - just like with rabbit breeders, some seem to really care for their animals and some seem to treat them as property. I get kind of touchy when people start bad-mouthing breeders because of a few bad individuals. It's important to keep in mind that there are people who really care about their dogs, rabbits etc. and we should be bad-mouthing the ones who don't care, not the whole group.
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tundrakatiebean wrote:
gentle giants wrote:
Um-when left to their own choices they will do it anyway. That's why you can't leave an uneutered boy bunny in with his mom--cause he will mate with her. Animals don't share our feelings about things like that. Besides--it would be difficult to actually force an animal to mate, unless you are using AI. :)"

My dog is an example of this. He was from an acidental father daughter breeding. She went into heat before she was taken away from the group and daddy went by nature. These were all my grandparents dogs, back when they used to breed and show. And I just have to say, not all breeders kill dogs just because they don't fit the grain and all that stuff - just like with rabbit breeders, some seem to really care for their animals and some seem to treat them as property. I get kind of touchy when people start bad-mouthing breeders because of a few bad individuals. It's important to keep in mind that there are people who really care about their dogs, rabbits etc. and we should be bad-mouthing the ones who don't care, not the whole group.
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Amen!! I have a friend who has been breeding and showing dogs for over thirty years. Her dogs get their monthly flea treatment, heartworm preventative, and shots-all of them, even the mixed breed ones that are just pets. Plus, even with her show dogs, that are worth thousands, they are only allowed to have two litters before they get spayed. And she has a very nice young male that she could easily use for breeding and get mucho denaro in stud fees, but won't do it because he is nervous and easily frightened, and she doesn't want to pass that on.

Again, I am not saying that all breeders are wonderful, just as with rabbits, it can go either way.

BTW, Fran, I was wondering about the Ridgeback dogs too. Like I said, I don't know much about them, but the one that I have met and petted only seemed to have hair there.
 
gentle giants wrote:
Hey Spring, would you be able to post a link to the You Tube vid? I haven't been able to find it, and I am really curious as to what this show is all about.
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Hey,

Jumping in mid-discussion here.... I didn't watch the program, but my mum was telling me about this yesterday...

GG, you can watch it on the BBC website, here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00d4ljk/

It should just play in the window I think!

I can't really comment on the program as I didn't see it, and I think it might upset me so I probably wont watch it, but my mum told me about a dog (think it was a King Charles Spaniel?) that had some kind of illness which would cause it to be in great pain, and she had some number of litters before she was diagnosed, but it was discovered that she'd had around 34 (I think that's right) litters after it was diagnosed? Some of that might be incorrect, as I only heard it from my mum, but it made me so sad.. :(

That's the kind of breeding I disagree with completely- where it's all about the money and what you can get out of that animal without thinking about it's welfare at all... :(
 
The thing about the ridge back was on the programme. I'm not saying its 100% true but I'm guessing it is. These programmes can twist the truth but they can't flat out lie. They had the head of the RSPCA saying its a problem with the spine that causes the ridge. They also said that pugs, in order to have curly tails, end up with a slight curl in the back end of the spine that leads into the tails, and that the breed standard says 'a curl as tight as possible is desirable'. So basically the more twisted and deformed your dogs spine is the better it has a chance at winning Crufts.

Fran :) :hearts :brownbunny
 
I actually got very annoyed at that program. It was 80% sensationalsim. It showed the Kennel Club in a very negative light, when in fact they have done an awful lot over the last few years to get health tests (e.g hip and eye testing) to be something that breeders take seriously, and it has worked. Any good breeder will do hip and eye testing before breeding these days.

In the case of the Ridgeback, half of it was rubbish! Ridgeless puppies DO get dermoid sinus (the condition that the investigator refered to as spina bifida). They are not more healthy than ridged puppies, both can suffer from the coniditon. The dermoid sinus problems that they made such a fuss about are also being worked on, any good breeders are now testing their dogs for this problem before breeding. People are working hard to improve the health of pure bred dogs!

As for the inbreeding, that was so ridiculously blown out of proportion. All breeds of animals get inbred, if the genes are good genes then you get good offspring. I have, and I'm sure most other rabbit breeder here will have linebred/inbred. Our rabbit breeds are not suffering these dire illnesses that supposedly come from inbreeding. That said, I wouldn't agree with constant close inbreeding over a few generations, but inbreeding in itself is not a bad thing if used properly.

The changes in dog breeds is also exaggerrated I feel. They showed three or four breeds that had changed, what about the breeds that still look like they did 40 years ago? There are many.

As for culling puppies that don't meet the breed standard, I don't think there are many breeders these days that still do that. There have always been white German Shepherds, but we have only become aware of them in the last few years, because up until then breeders used to cull them. Times have changed.

That's not to say there is not a problem with pedigree dogs. There is, but it is not inbreeding, it is not the Kennel Club, it is, as it always has been, bad breeders. If breeders took the time to health and DNA test their dogs and take more concern over varying their bloodlines, and not breed from affected dogs then there wouldn't be a problem. This is something that the Kennel Club and the millions of good breeders that the program failed to mention have been encouraging and working towards for years.

As with most BBC documentaries, it was horrifically biased and was just out to shock people, it took all the negative "facts" it could find and totally ignored everything else, as usual. Just a shame that people blindly believe anything they see on the television.




 
Very well said, Jenson. The problems that can come up with inbreeding only come up if the animals had a certain fault in the first place. If you have a line of animals that has no genetic faults whatsoever, (I know, not likely) then no matter how inbred those animals are, theyare much less likely tohave health issues. The problem with inbreeding is that if you have a recessive gene that is problematic, and breed two animals in the same line that both have it, then bingo, sick animals.
 
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