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Lissa

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I talked to a rabbit vet in Milwaukee and shetold me that a blood test would need to be done and the Iszy needed tobe put on a different anti-biotic. These people at least knowwhat they're talking about. Where is my regular vet when Ineed her?!

....on vacation :fishing::disgust:
 

CorkysMom

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Sadly just cuz they are a vet doesn't mean theyknow all..doesn't mean they don't care. I had simialar probswith cardiologists last year...took me 5 of em to get to someone whocould give me answers and was willing to try aggressivetreatment....sadly it still didn't take care of it..but at least Itrust this guy. (too bad he's 2 hours away)

You are doing the right thing by going elsewhere tho and trying othersto find someone that knows. Hand in there, persistance will pay off.

In the meantime you and Izzy are in my thoughts/prayers...hope something good comes out of your persistance!
 

Bassetluv

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I have been trying to find something on panoteaagglomerans on the 'net as well; unfortunately I don't have thebackground to understand the scientific references.

I did find this, which I don't understand, but perhaps someone here will...

Pantoea agglomerans
rhamnose positive (may be delayed); indole, methyl red, VP, Simmon'scitrate, urease, KCN, motility, phenylalanine deaminase, gas fromglucose, lactose, sucrose, dulcitol, inositol and raffinose variable;causes endotoxinemia, infusion infection; susceptible to ceftriaxone(MIC 0.03 mg/L), cotrimoxazole (< 0.06--0.12 mg/L),meropenem (0.13 mg/L), moxalactam (0.25 mg/L), cefotaxime (0.25--0.5mg/L), imipenem (0.5 mg/L), gentamicin (0.5 mg/L), ciprofloxacin(100%), enoxacin (94%), norfloxacin (94%).


I have no idea what any of this means, as I don't have a scientificbackground (and it's very frustrating, because at work I see paperslike this all the time but wouldn't be able to tell you what theymean...I work in a place that publishes scientific journals). Anyway, Iwill keep on searching and see if I can find anything that is remotelyclose to laymans' terms...

Ooops...I should include the link for this info in case anyone doesunderstand it...I noticed there was information on Pasteurella as well:

http://wordnet.com.au/Products/d&m17.pdf

 

Lissa

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Bassetluv wrote:
I have been trying to find something on panotea agglomeranson the 'net as well; unfortunately I don't have the background tounderstand the scientific references.
That is the same problem I am having. All this scientific jargon is confusing. :?
 

Jenniblu

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Okay - this part lists what medications thepathogen is suseptable (vulnerable) to so these medicines can be usedto treat it. The numbers after it are the concentrations ofeach type of medicine used to treat it (I"m 90% sure of at least):

ceftriaxone (MIC 0.03 mg/L), cotrimoxazole (<0.06--0.12 mg/L), meropenem (0.13 mg/L), moxalactam (0.25 mg/L),cefotaxime (0.25--0.5 mg/L), imipenem (0.5 mg/L), gentamicin (0.5mg/L), ciprofloxacin (100%), enoxacin (94%), norfloxacin (94%).

One of the meds listed is Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) was what Vash was puton to treat his abscess early this year. It helped to skrinkit, but really affected his appetite.
 

Bassetluv

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Is it okay to pet Iszy and then pet Pristine?
My rule of thumb with animals has always been...until and unless youknow exactly what you're dealing with, take precautions. Handle theanimals that don't show any symptoms first, then wash hands, sterilizeor wash anything that is used for both (all) pets, then handle theanimal which isn't well last....just to be on the safe side.


 

Lissa

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Jenniblu wrote:
Okay - this part lists what medications the pathogen issuseptable (vulnerable) to so these medicines can be used to treatit. The numbers after it are the concentrations of each typeof medicine used to treat it (I"m 90% sure of at least):

ceftriaxone (MIC 0.03 mg/L), cotrimoxazole (<0.06--0.12 mg/L), meropenem (0.13 mg/L), moxalactam (0.25 mg/L),cefotaxime (0.25--0.5 mg/L), imipenem (0.5 mg/L), gentamicin (0.5mg/L), ciprofloxacin (100%), enoxacin (94%), norfloxacin (94%).

One of the meds listed is Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) was what Vash was puton to treat his abscess early this year. It helped to skrinkit, but really affected his appetite.
I don't have the test results with me, but I know Baytril was listed. Does it say anything about being curable?
 

Lissa

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UPDATE

The vet finally called me back. He said that he has neverheard of pantoea agglomerans in the respiratory system, but rather onthe skin of dogs and cats. He is not familiar (nor is Iszy'sregular vet) with this bacteria in rabbits. Pantoeaagglomerans are a type of Enterobacter (whatever that means).He told me to put Iszy back on the Baytril for about a month.He thinks that, like humans taking antibiotics, if we don't take themlong enough it can relapse. He believes this is what happenedhere. Iszy also needs to be kept away from Pristine for 10weeks! :(I have Iszy out in the kitchen andPristine in the bunny room. Though the bacteria is nottransmissible through air, but rather through direct nose-to-nosecontact, he said I better play it safe.

I asked about blood work, x-rays, cultures and other testing that couldbe done. His response was that he wouldn't know what to belooking for. We already know the type of bacteria which iscausing this and he said that any other testing wouldn't benecessary.

The lady at UW said that it could possibly be the back molars causingsome problems. I couldn't remember exactly what she called itbut she said that a skull film under anesthesia would need to beperformed to see if this was the problem. She too, is notfamiliar with pantoea agglomerans. She said that she wouldtalk to the microbiologist.
 

Jenniblu

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Lissa, do you live near any apple or pearorchards? What about feeding her bananas? I'masking because doing a Google search on Pantoea agglomerans hasbrought up a lot of testing using it to control blight and rust inapples, pears, and bananas. I'm wondering (and don't quote meon this) if it could have come from fruit treated by using thisorganism.

http://www.apsnet.org/phyto/pdfs/2000/0911-01R.pdf

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/jhsb/jhsb/2004/00000079/00000006/art00028

I'm wondering if maybe due a weakened immune system, she then becamesusceptible to this bacteria. From what I am reading, P.agglomerans is found just about everywhere - plants, animals, urine,and water.

Anyone else? :ponder: This is not my best field of casual study lol.

Edited - Spell check. Oops.


 

Carolyn

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Thanks for the update, Lissa. Prayers continue. Please keep us posted on how Izzers is doing.

-Carolyn
 

Lissa

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Jenn, if that were the case (with the bananas),don't you think Lenci would have been infected too?Hm. :? I'll print this article off and show my vet.
 

pamnock

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Jenniblu wrote:
I'm wondering if maybe due a weakened immune system, she then becamesusceptible to this bacteria. From what I am reading, P.agglomerans is found just about everywhere - plants, animals, urine,and water.

Correct -- the bacteria is very common and generally not a healththreat. It is more of a threat in nursing homes, hospitals orto those with compromised immune systems.



Pam
 

JimD

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Lissa wrote:
Is it okay to pet Iszy and then pet Pristine?
Hi Lissa!

I keep a bottle of Purell in the bunnie room, however I usually opt to wash my hands instead.

We also have a blanket that we use for just the sick bunnie (for the"bunnie-burrito" methodto give meds or clip nails).

I'm pretty much a stickler about washing hands before and betweenhandling animals, especially if any have signs of being ill (we have adog and 7 hamsters, too).

All bowls and bottles are labeld with the buns names so we don't mix them up. We never switch around litter pans either.

I even mircowave the "bunnie" sponge between cleaning each litter pan.And we use paper towels to dry bunnie stuff instead of a cloth one thatcould harbor "bad thingies".

Can you say "OCD" ;)
 

Jenniblu

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pamnock wrote:
Jenniblu wrote:
I'm wondering if maybe due a weakened immune system, she then becamesusceptible to this bacteria. From what I am reading, P.agglomerans is found just about everywhere - plants, animals, urine,and water.

Correct -- the bacteria is very common and generally not a healththreat. It is more of a threat in nursing homes, hospitalsor to those with compromised immune systems.



Pam
Yeah,I'm wondering if Izzy has something affecting her immunesystem before she caught this. In hospitals/nursing homes,etc. those mostly vunerable to infection are the elderly, surgerypatients,new mothers (just gave birth), and those infectedwith some other serious infection like AIDS/HIV, TB,etc.

I got infected from a patient who had shingles because I was underextreme stress (mandatory double shifts, house flooded, exposed toother pathogens, etc.) which caused my immune system to start shuttingdown.

Was Izzy under a lot of stress or fighting another infection before this happened?
 

Lissa

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Jenniblu wrote:
Was Izzy under a lot of stress or fighting another infectionbefore this happened?
I was asked the very same thing when Lenci was sick. The onlything that could have possibly stressed her out was maybe goingoutside?!? She loved it outside, but I'm sure that at firstit can be stressful. Maybe even going inside to the airconditioning from the outdoors where it was sometimes 80degrees?? Other than that, thingshave been thesame.

We moved into our house in April. May both bunnies werefine.Mid June is when everything startedhappening. Iszy got sick and then Lenci got sick right afterthat.
 

p1rat3

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Jenniblu wrote:
pamnock wrote:
Jenniblu wrote:
I'm wondering if maybe due a weakened immune system, she then becamesusceptible to this bacteria. From what I am reading, P.agglomerans is found just about everywhere - plants, animals, urine,and water.

Correct -- the bacteria is very common and generally not a healththreat. It is more of a threat in nursing homes, hospitalsor to those with compromised immune systems.



Pam
Yeah,I'm wondering if Izzy has something affecting her immunesystem before she caught this. In hospitals/nursing homes,etc. those mostly vunerable to infection are the elderly, surgerypatients,new mothers (just gave birth), and those infectedwith some other serious infection like AIDS/HIV, TB,etc.

I got infected from a patient who had shingles because I was underextreme stress (mandatory double shifts, house flooded, exposed toother pathogens, etc.) which caused my immune system to start shuttingdown.

Was Izzy under a lot of stress or fighting another infection before this happened?
I agree with what they said above (everything I know was learned fromthis thread though). If this infection takes advantage ofrepressed immune systems then something must have been (or may stillbe) wrong with Izzy. If something is still wrong with Izzy(or the immune system is still weak) then the infection could easily becaught again.

My point is that maybe your are treating the symptom and not thecause. Like changing a mis-worn tire but not fixing thealignment. It seems very likely that something was wrong withIzzy when he got the infection, and I am worried that it was nevertreated and may still have what ever has hurt his immune system.

Just my thoughts. (and amalgamation of others thoughts),

Jay
 

Lissa

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The plan is to keep her on the Baytril and ifthe symptoms come back again, a new antibiotic will be given to her andI may go forward with some further testing...blood tests, skull films,etc.
 
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