"Neutered" buck breeds doe and produces litter. Help!

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I_heart_Fraggles

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OK I'm not sure were to put this post but I picked here because its kinda a medical question. Several months ago I rescued a young buck and had him fostered to regain health before placement. In that time I had him examined by both rabbit vet and breeder. Both said he was already neutered in fact I watched both people grasp the area were the testies should be. Nothing!!! They were even able to pull the empty skin forward. The scrotum area was completely empty. The vet that examined him said there were no testicles and he was fully grown at over a year old. So I placed him with a nice family and there N.D doe. Months have gone by and all seemed well until today when the owner called me to ask me about how to care for the litter the doe just gave birth to. Now I'm shocked because I can't figure out how this could have happened. How could we all have been wrong and is there a condition were a buck can have no sign of testicles and still be a breed able buck? What the heck happened?
 

Maureen Las

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Bucks can suck their testicles into their body so there appears to be just skin that is visible. I have seen them do this before but often 1 side will be visible with a full testicle and 1 side will look like the sac is empty .

Very young bucks often do not drop their testicles until maybe 4 months or so.

At the shelter if we do not find testicles we often check several times over a period of time.
Vets are not always the best at sexing rabbits but you would expect that a breeder would be.
I can tell by looking at the genitals themselves as what appears to be a penis on a girl is really a 'slit" and the male will have a penis that is actually rounded and tubular.

I used to have this great link with pics and will try to find it as it is difficult to describe

Anyway these things happen ; I have had it happen to me and we have sexed them wrong at the shelter and the vets have caught it so I am not that surprised.
if you need help with the litter I suggest making a separate post in the rabbitry section of the forum.

this is a shame but once again these things do happen
 

Maureen Las

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angieluv wrote:
Bucks can suck their testicles into their body so there appears to be just skin that is visible. I have seen them do this before but often 1 side will be visible with a full testicle and 1 side will look like the sac is empty .

Very young bucks often do not drop their testicles until maybe 4 months or so.

At the shelter if we do not find testicles we often check several times over a period of time.
Vets are not always the best at sexing rabbits but you would expect that a breeder would be.
I can tell by looking at the genitals themselves as what appears to be a penis on a girl is really a 'slit" and the male will have a penis that is actually rounded and tubular.

I used to have this great link with pics and will try to find it as it is difficult to describe

Anyway these things happen ; I have had it happen to me and we have sexed them wrong at the shelter and the vets have caught it so I am not that surprised.
if you need help with the litter I suggest making a separate post in the rabbitry section of the forum.

this is a shame but once again these things do happen
Also if the buck was in poor condition when he was rescued he may have dropped his testicles even later than normal
here is a link but I am not sure if it is the best one.

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/sexing.shtml

it is way better to be able to identify genitalia then to rely on finding testicles.
 

I_heart_Fraggles

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I knew bucks could hide testicles but he was fostered for six weeks and was examined multiple times while being in poor condition all the way to perfect condition. He is in great condition at the vets office as well. I'm just so confused, there is no way he was sexed wrong. The breeder is a expert, she actually wanted to keep him for her herd because he is a beautiful silver/white mini. She wanted to breed him and was disappointed at the results of the exams. Also when his new owners came to pick him up we put him and the doe together to see how she felt about him. He showed no sexual interest in her what so ever! He also showed no interest in my own doe before he went to foster. He was over a year then. Something just is not right her
 

Maureen Las

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Could the woman have bred her female with another male and is not being honest. ?

I also would want to check out the male again
 

naturestee

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His testicles might never have descended. If that is the case, he should be neutered for health reasons, although the surgery is more like a spay. If I remember right, there is a high chance of cryptorchid males developing testicular cancer.
 

Maureen Las

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Even if he is cryptorchid (good thinking Angela :D).. you can still look at his penis and sex him by that organ alone testicles or no testicles
 

tamsin

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Yep, I agree, either:

1. He's a late bloomer - Scamp didn't drop his until 9 months ish

2. He's got permanently retained testicles

3. Another bun did the dead

Need to work out which asap, if it's 1 or 2 then odds are there is a second litter on the way already. Should be able to tell with an exam.
 

I_heart_Fraggles

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Angieluv. There is no way I sexed him wrong. I adopted him out as a buck and that is what he is. I can usually sex them before the genital exam just off head shape and I'm right 8 out of 10 times. I knew he was male and that's not the issue. I thought he was neutered, we all did. Hopefully in a couple weeks I will see the litter and the buck in question again. The poor breeder does not even believe it herself.
 

Maureen Las

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I_heart_Fraggles wrote:
Angieluv. There is no way I sexed him wrong. I adopted him out as a buck and that is what he is. I can usually sex them before the genital exam just off head shape and I'm right 8 out of 10 times. I knew he was male and that's not the issue. I thought he was neutered, we all did. Hopefully in a couple weeks I will see the litter and the buck in question again. The poor breeder does not even believe it herself.
I didn't mean to offend you at all ; I believe you

it will be interesting when you get to see him again .........
 

I_heart_Fraggles

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I did not mean to sound offended. I'm sorry if I came acrossed that way. I just feel guilty and responsible for a unwanted litter that needs good homes. These are nice people and did not want a litter. The lady even created her own account on here and sent me a pm assuring me that this is the only buck her doe has been in contact with and I believe her.
 

I_heart_Fraggles

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I'm just frustrated. I'm a professional rehabber and I'm not supposed to make this kind of mistake. This is the kind of mistake made by someone who does not know what there doing. I'm just questioning myself now.
 

Maureen Las

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I_heart_Fraggles wrote:
I'm just frustrated. I'm a professional rehabber and I'm not supposed to make this kind of mistake. This is the kind of mistake made by someone who does not know what there doing. I'm just questioning myself now.
I can understand that you are frustrated , however you are being way too hard on yourself. This type of thing can ( and does) happen to experienced people

Don't be so hard on yourself :hug:
 

I_heart_Fraggles

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Thank you for that it really does help. I have been working with animals since I was 14. I went to college for it and have been working professionally since I was 21. I'm 28 now and I have never had anything like this happen. But I did everything I was supposed to. He was examined by a vet a breeder and myself. The vet is rabbit savvy and the breeder has been breeding as long as I have been alive.
 

naturestee

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If the testicles never descended, you probably wouldn't know it unless an ultrasound or surgery was done. I would have thought that the vet would be able to palpate them, but who knows? I know in humans that the testes start out pretty high in the abdomen.

Don't feel too bad. It was an honest mistake, and I don't know how you would have known if he does indeed have cryptorchidism.
 

tamsin

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I'm pretty sure you must have got the sex right cos two girls wouldn't have added up to babies either ;)

I agree, there is only so much you can do. If they are stuck up in the abdomen, short of x-ray vision, how could you have known?
 

tonyshuman

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Mistakes happen, despite how well we try to prevent them sometimes.

And in this situation I think the male is probably cryptorchid.
 

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