My 11+ yr old bunny is not feeling well

[JBG]

I've previously wrote a post saying that my bunny has lost his litter box habits and is urinating anywhere he is in his condo. Fortunately, he is not urinating on the floor outside his condo. My husband and I had tried a new litter box, which did not work - it's bigger and has a low entrance lip. It must have been comfortable because Caramel thought it was a bed.

Due to that it's so hard to keep the bunny clean and dry, he now has very bad sores on his hands and feet. I FEEL TERRIBLE for that. I've had the bunny since he was 6 weeks old and have always changed his litter daily, so he was always clean. He's a white bunny with gold markings.

Without taking any chances, we took Caramel to the vet yesterday. The vet said that Caramel is the oldest bunny he has ever taken care of. The oldest he's seen was 10 yrs old.

The vet took some blood from Caramel and the results showed that he has an inflammation somewhere, he doesn't know where yet, as well as high calcium. Caramel only eats Oxbow's Timothy hay, so it's not from his diet. We now need to get a urine sample from him. The vet said it won't be accurate because we have to get it from the urine on the condo floor. The vet wanted to get a urine sample when Caramel was there yesterday, but the vet didn't feel that Caramel had a full bladder - he felt his stomach area.

I'm SO sad to see that my little guy is getting old. He's a GREAT pal and always has been.

Any feedback to my post would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[Pipp]

Hi, I've moved this to the Infirmary.

Did the vet give the bunny some fluids under the skin? The chances are good it's a urinary infection of some kind.

What does his pee look like? Is it chalky? Or very clear?

What else does he get besides Oxbow hay?


sas :clover:

 

[Pipp]

PS: The dribbling is probably from the infection as well. I'd gently rinse him under the tap or in the tub with a few inches of water.

Rubbing him with cornstarch will help keep him dry and comfortable. How bad are the sores? Did the vet give you something for that?

Once you get rid of the infection, he should stop dribbling.

He shouldn't have a sudden diet change, but he needs a lot of fresh greens soaked in water and a little bowl of water flavored with some fruit juice to make him drink as much as possible. The best thing is real cranberry juice or frozen cranberries or something similar that will get the cranberry in his system. It will help his bladder.

The most important thing is definitely fluids, fluids and more fluids. The hay will help his digestive tract but will do nothing for his urinary system although bunnies that eat hay tend to drink more water.

Fresh pulled (not mowed) grass might be a good addition.


sas :clover:

 

[JBG]

Thanks for the reply.

The doctor doesn't know that it's urinary infection yet. That's why we need to get a urine sample. Also, the bunny isn't dribbling urine. He urine is normal color, not chaulky.

I forgot to mention that Caramel lost .5lbs since last year. We didn't notice the weight loss. He now weights 2.7 lbs.

Also, Caramel is drinking and eating fine. He is drinking a lot. He only gets hay and water because he is a senior bunny. We were told by 3 vets that that is all he should get because of being elderly.

 

[Pipp]

The sores are from standing and sitting in the urine then?

'Dribbling' urine can still be leaving puddles outside his litter box. The usual sores come from 'urine scald' which is usually a dribble of some sort. If they're only on the feet, then I assume he's stepping or lying in it, if they're higher up on the back legs, it's a dribble.

I would guess the weight loss is from the time he was cut back to just hay?

Older rabbits need less protein because it can be hard on the kidneys, yes, and older bunnies are less active and tend to get overweight so pellets can be cut right back.

ETA: But they shouldn't be cut back on nutrients aside from protein. Older rabbits naturally have some muscle 'wasting' and will get thinner, if anything they need more nutrients, not fewer. And if they're not obese, there's no problem with calories.

But vegetables are not high in protein, and even the ones with high calcium content are moderated by the fact its a wet source, not a dry source.

If this bunny was getting veggies before, I'd strongly suggest at least giving him some herbs and grass. Just for the old age enjoyment factor alone. Although I still contend he'll be healthier especially in terms of his pee habits.

Were the three vets at different clinics? This is odd advice.

And as noted, all rabbits that eat a lot of hay will drink a lot of water, because they're not getting any fluids through the hay. But it would still be very good to increase the water intake.

If you need to collect a better urine sample, try washing some bubble wrap and put it where he's been peeing. The urine will collect there and you can suck up a pretty clean sample with a syring or clean dropper.

sas :clover:

 

[JBG]

Caramel has been on a hay only diet for 3 yrs. So it's before way before the weight loss.

It's not only dribbles of urine, it's big puddles or floods of urine. Instead of using the litter box, Caramel just pees on the condo floor.

The sores are from stepping in the urine. The vet suggested putting a little bit of Vaseline on the sore spots.

The 3 vets were from different clinics.

Thanks again.

 

[Maureen Las]

A "No pellets" dietwas trendy ( Susan Brown )several years back when all rabbits were being fed mostly pellets and no hay or veggies
There is a middle ground ...

I believe that rabbits need a very small amount of quality pellet daily to give them trace minerals and some vitamins (like Vitamin D) that they can only get from certain foods and being outdoors.

you can put a little Neosporin (plain) on the sores.

It does sound like your bun has a bladder infection


Iwould not feed an older rabbit a hay only diet

It is normal for blood calcium levels to be high in rabbits but I will need to back that up from literature soI will look for the reference.

 

[Pipp]

When was he last weighed? Weight loss from the diet change will be gradual, but if the loss was sudden, that will be a difference.

Rabbit science is always changing. A few years ago, the school of thought was that pellets were overloading rabbits with protein and calcium, vegetables could cause digestive upsets and didn't provide enough dry fiber and that the hay was the best diet (although I never heard hay alone being recommended).

Regardless, this is definitely no longer the case. The more recent studies are changing the general advice to say that the best rabbit diet is a varied diet.

Especially if Caramel is an indoor rabbit, hay alone is not sufficient. He needs Vitamin D and other nutrients to properly synthesize the vitamins, and that means a variety of vegetation to try and duplicate what is in their natural environment.

Yes, lots of hay -- mostly hay -- but also small amounts grass, leaves, berries and other produce, and just a few pellets, even a half teaspoon, to make sure.

I'd recheck with those vets and I think you'll find that a hay-only diet won't be their advice this time around.

Did the blood test address kidney and liver values?

I'm really not sure about vaseline. That's a petroleum product the rabbit will be licking off, and it doesn't have healing properties. I'd try puppy pads to absorb the urine and cornstarch to dry him off, and rub in some bag balm or something for the irritation.


sas :clover:

 

[Maureen Las]

Sas
I went to an expensive well-known exotics "rabbit saavy" (money hungry) hospital in Chicago years ago and they were on the "hay only" kick ..
which is now old school

 

[Maureen Las]

I retract whatI said previously re. calcium levels;I cannot find the source that I got the info from.

Kathy Smith in

"Rabbit Health in the 21st century" states

"In rabbits serum calcium levels are proportional to dietary calcium levels . Above normal calcium levels may indicate a diet that is too high in calcium . Elevated calcium levels may be an indicator of cancer. Decrease serum calcium often occurs with diarrhea.



Randy (ra7751) has discussed the fact that a diet too low in calcium can actually cause calcium to be taken from the bone causing metqbolic bone disease.

This subject came up in a discussion of giving rabbits a low calcium diet to prevent the occurence of bladder sludge and stones. Treating one condition a certain way may create another condition.

Your rabbit would be on a very low calcium or no calcium diet so diet would not have created the increase.


Ialso believe that some labs are not geared to properly determining what are normal lab values for a rabbit

 

[JBG]

My old vet called me back a few hours ago. I moved and had to leave her. She is VERY knowledgeable about rabbits. She said that it's common for older bunnies to lose weight and suggested that Caramel be given a mixture of Oxbow Basic 15/23 and Oxbow Timothy pellets.

She also said that I should try the new litter box again by putting Carefresh on the bottom with a lot of hay on top. This way if the bunny lies in the litter box, he'll be on top of the hay away from the urine.

As for the sore hocks, she said to use Vaseline on the sores. She expressed that it's so important to take care of them quickly.

Besides the above, she suggested to give Caramel meticam everyday - I've been giving it to Caramel every other day. In addition, we should sprinkle glucosamine, 250mg, over his pellets.

She also said that rabbits do have a higher calcium level than other animals.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

[Pipp]

I'm never too concerned about calcium levels other than in conjunction with other readings that might indicate cancer or kidney disease.

The advice about the pellets is good. He doesn't need a lot, but he needs some. And I'd still strongly recommend grass and other fresh vegetation and doing what you can to increase his water intake.

Did the vet have the blood test results? The only concern I'd have is that Metacam will restrict the plasma flow to the kidneys and cause problems for a dehydrated rabbit or one with kidney disease. Otherwise daily Metacam is great for arthritic rabbits. As mentioned in the other thread, that could be the true issue, although given test results showing infection, I'd certainly be thinking bladder infection as well.

Keeping the feet urine free is certainly the best bet there, so the Carefresh litter and hay is good advice. If the vet thinks Vaseline is good, I'll defer to her judgment, she sounds knowledgeable.


sas :goodluck:

 

[LV426]

Honestly this sounds like kidney disease.

I'd have your vet check his kidney function. If it turns out to be kidney disease you might be able to treat him with Azodyl. It worked for my 16 yr old cat but I don't know if it will work for rabbits. It's a type of probiotic.

Just ask your vet.

As for the peeing, it's a bit expensive but go get adult diapers and put them on the bottom of his cage and cover with a layer of straw. The straw won't absorb the urine and it will pass on down to the diapers but will keep him from sitting in the urine.

As for treatment of his hocks and urine scald.

Wash the affected areas thoroughly with soap and water. If you have betadine I would use that. Rinse well and then dry completely. Apply a nice thin even layer of blue kote and let dry completely http://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/blue_kote_wound_dressing.html

Warning it will dye your skin and your rabbit's skin and fur purple because it has gentian violet in it but it is perfectly safe and will eventually fade or can be removed with rubbing alcohol.

You can get it at most feed stores. Then rub in a generous amount of bag balm.http://www.bagbalm.com/

Another feed store find.

The blue Kote provides a nice healing antiseptic covering. You can apply every 2-days as needed. The bag balm you can use everyday just wash the area first and let dry completely before applying.
The bag balm provides a nice moisture barrier so the urine can't irritate the skin.

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

Could be due to ld age, or it could be a urine infection. He coul dbe losing control of his kidneys.

Please do not change his diet. That is a very dangerous thing to do for him, esp feeding him the amount of the greens that has been recommended in this thread. I don't think the adding the other type of pellets will hurt him though. He is npt used to eating them, and changing like that can be very dangerous for a rabbit.

The issues could also be coming from the sore hocks. How long has it been since his toenails have been clipped? If they haven't been done, it would be best have them checked. Untrimmed toenails is the number cause of sore hocks. It could also be from sitting on a solid floor, or carpet. rabbits that sit on those are also prone to sore hocks. There could also be something else going on here too. get a fecal done. Rabbits that suffer from GI diseases like coccidia can also get sore hocks.

Now how to get rid of those. This is the best way to do it, if you want to get rid of them once and for all. Get him into a cage that has a dropping pan underneath it. Go pick up a bale of straw from a local farmer. Go to a local farm supply store and pick up some mild tincture of iodine.layer the bottom of the cagew ith two to three inches of fresh clean straw. the reason why you need a wire bottom cage with a dropping pan is because chances are he will pee all over it, and it will get smelly. Rub the tincture of iodine into the wounds twice a day. the sores will start to disappear after about a week. Keep doing that until they are completely gone.

I don't use solid floored cages, or anything that sits on solid flooring. i rarely have problems with sore hocks. that is the method I use when I do see them, and it works.

 

[Icarus]

Best treatment for hocksores:

Gently clean the sores to remove any dirt or debris. Cool water should be fine.
Gently pat dry.

Apply a thick coating of Corona's Lanolin Rich Ointment. It's waterproof and doesn't sting or burn. It has a rather nice smell to it.

Place a pad of toilet paper, or similar cushion on the bottom of the foot. This keeps the ointment from getting everywhere and allows it to better soak into the skin. Wrap with gauze, vet wrap, or tape. Go up the leg a bit so it doesn't slip off.

The Lanolin ointment will take down the swelling and irritation. I usually see results the next day, from inflamed and nasty to only slightly red and much less swollen. The worst hock sores I treated where on a older Checkered Giant buck, they where healed in a week. I changed the padding every day for the first 2-3 days, then every other day after that.

You can usually find the ointment at a local farm supply store. Or online here:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...06csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=525367416


I love it for my elder horse. He often gets cuts, and tends to loose the hair on his forehead in the spring and summer. I slather this stuff on and it grows back nice.
Helps with his dandruff issue too. Keeps the itching at bay.

 

[LV426]

I wouldn't wrap the hocks in anything because if the sore hocks are from urine scald and he's peeing and just sitting in it the wrapping can become saturated in urine and just compound the issue.

 

[Happi Bun]

dixonsrabbitry1 wrote:

Untrimmed toenails is the number cause of sore hocks. It could also be from sitting on a solid floor, or carpet. rabbits that sit on those are also prone to sore hocks.

I don't use solid floored cages, or anything that sits on solid flooring. i rarely have problems with sore hocks. that is the method I use when I do see them, and it works.

Huh... :?

All three of my rabbits are on solid flooring without any problems. Solid flooring can be a problem if kept in unsanitary conditions (not a problem with litter box trained bunnies) or if they have extended periods of immobility on it, but otherwise I have seen no evidence to support your claim of rabbits on solid flooring being prone to sore hocks.

The contributing factors that result in sore hocks;

-by Tania Castaneda

"Rabbits can be genetically predisposed to pododermatitis. Rexes, which have thinner fur pads protecting paw bottoms, are naturally more vulnerable to sore hocks. Larger breeds also inherently carry more weight on their hocks, and this can promote the development of sores. Genetic predispositions are greatly exacerbated by environmental factors, and even rabbits without any genetic inclination can suffer from sore hocks if exposed or subjected to the following conditions:"

• extended periods of time in confined spaces
• extended periods of immobility, prolonged time sitting on wired or hard surfaces with little “give” or pliability
• damp or unhygienic surroundings
• overgrown nails
• obesity

For more information on sore hocks-

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/sorehocks.shtml

 

[LV426]

Honestly I've had a rabbit develop sore hocks on nothing but carpeting in a 9 ft square enclosure and even lost all the fur off his feet so it's not accurate to say that a wire bottom cage and immobility causes sore hocks or that carpeting prevents it.

Regardless I think in this case though because the rabbit is sitting in urine that using a wire bottom cage with straw on top would be beneficial to the rabbit so it can avoid sitting in the urine. The straw provides a cushion but allows the urine to pass through and fall into the pan below.

 

[JBG]

Thanks for all the replies.

My husband and I trim the bunny's toenails every 5 weeks. The sore hocks recently started. It from sitting in his urine. The sores aren't too bad, but they're bad enough.

Last night we tried his new litter box, as my old vet recommended. So far, no accidents on the condo floor .

How do you know if a bunny has a bladder infection?

 

[Happi Bun]

LV426 wrote:

Honestly I've had a rabbit develop sore hocks on nothing but carpeting in a 9 ft square enclosure and even lost all the fur off his feet so it's not accurate to say that a wire bottom cage and immobility causes sore hocks or that carpeting prevents it.

[align=left]I don't believe I said that, nor did the link I posted. Some rabbits are predisposed due to genetics. To some it's environmental factors. Sore hocks can happen on solid flooring and wire if any of contributing factors in my previous post are apparent. That is my point. Saying rabbits on solid flooring are prone to sore hocks is no more accurate than someone saying they are on wire. It's usually not the wire of solid flooring itself, but some other factor coming into play. Genetics, unsanitary or damp environment, obesity, long nails, extended periods of immobility.

In this case it was the dampness of sitting in urine.

Yay for no more accidents! I would think your best bet on accurately diagnosing if your bun has a urinary tract problem is to have a urinalysis done by your veterinarian.
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