Linebreeding/inbreeding Question

[gentle giants]

Ok, I saw on a breeder website a couple of weeks ago that this person has found that brother/sister breedings tend to solidify good charachteristics of the line better than father/daughter or mother/son breedings. Now, I had alwasy thought that you weren't supposed to breed siblings, that it could cause defects. Which is right?


Edit to say sorry for my spelling, I have Band-Aids on my fingers.

 

[TinysMom]

My understanding has been that the general consensus is father/daughter and mother/son is better and has less health risks for the rabbits....as far as deformities, etc. However,I've heard of accidental breedings of siblings where everything turned out ok...I'm just not sure how it would work out for regular breedings like that.

If it was me buying an animal - I would not buy one if it had been linebred like that in the immediate parentage. Too me - its just toorisky and not worth the risk. But the other line breedings, I have no problem with.

Peg

 

[gentle giants]

Hmmm...So mabye once in a great while, if you had something really great it would be ok? I agree that it would definalty not be something you would do regularly. I tend to cringe about going parent/baby very often, actually. I think I've done it once, in my Flemish herd. I know of a mother/son combo I will definalty be doing, though.

 

[TinysMom]

I do parent/child a lot to set type and mane. I also do halfsibling to halfsibling if they have strengths I want. For instance, I have one buck I have to pet out...he carries the "chm" gene- a big no-no for lionheads. Problem? He's giving me the besttypes and manes I've ever had.

Since he throws himilayan though...I can keep his himilayan offspring and use them.

So I'm keeping 2 himilayans from one doe (brother/sister), a himilayan buck from another doe (to use with the buck from the first doe), and a blue doe from a 3rd litter - to use with the himilayan buck from the first doe.

So why keep a doe from the first doe? Why - to take to all of the bucks in my herd that is (well - not ALL of them). but I can useher- and her offspring to help my tort and sable point lines (to cleanup color and set type/mane).

This is breaking my heart though that my best buck for throwing type and mane has to be petted out (without a pedigree). All of his babies are probably going to be petted out with the exception of two tort bucks that I may keep to test breed. If I can get him is from them when bred to a himi - then they're safe.

But I do believe in father/child breeding to set certain factors and I know it is often done in the lionhead breed.

Peg

 

[gentle giants]

What is the "chm" gene? Do you pet them out without a pedigree to discourage the buyer from breeding them? I unfortunatly can't do father/daughter breedings anymore (in my Flemish,that is) because I only have two breeding bucks, and the older one, the father, I found out (after about $200 worth of tests!) has a heart condition. So he is retired from breeding, which is really sad, cause he passes on that big broad head of his. At least I have his son, though, Sammy, and hopefully he will pass on that head too. I'm gonna try breeding him to his aunt first, see if that helps keep that gorgeous head.

 

[TinysMom]

I find myself wondering if that big head is tied to heart problems based upon things I've heard from folks....seems likee veryone I know of who had flemish with big heads...had them die early from heart issues. I'm thinking of Apollo and Vash but it seems to me I heard of a breeder somewhere who had bred for that and now a couple of years later the offspring were dying off at younger ages - usually ofheart issues.

But I really dont' know anything other than what I've heard...I'm definitely no genetics expert. But I am thrilled Tiny doesn't have a big head....I'd be really even more concerned about his health and heart than I am now.

As far as the "chm" gene - it is a gene for the coloring. There is adebate about the gene and whether it really exists but I've been hearing stories of what it "can" do and it isn't worth it to me to risk my reputation as a breeder by putting these kits out there now that I realize that there could be implications for those who breed from the offspring.

This is sort of breaking my heart as he has been giving me kits thatare developing very nicely for mane and body type - and he's prettyconsistent with what he gives me too.

What we do know about his genetics - is that on the "c" locus - he has chm from his dad and ch (I think that is the himi one) from his mom.This means that when I can keep his himilayan children because they HAD to get the himilayan gene from him and not the "chm" gene and I can then use them and their offspring.

But the heartbreaking thing is...he throws "e" on the "E" gene - which gives torts, sable points,etc. So he could have really helped my lines a lot.

Instead, I'm hoping that his offspring will help my lines.

Its just so hard sometimes as a breeder to let go of something that might be helping your herd short term - but bad for the breed - or bad for other breeders in the long-term.

Peg

 

[pamnock]

Siblings are more similar genetically than parent x offspring matings. Due to the small gene pool, you are more likely to pull out the genes you desire. However, you are just as likely to pull out undesirable recessive genes.

Pam

 

[JAK Rabbitry]

I've always heard that sib crosses weren't good because they were too close, but perant to offspring and aunt to nephew and such are good line breeding crosses.

I don't do sibling crosses, and rarely perant to offspring corsses. Idid have a grade doe of mien have a litter, and I had nowhere to put the babies and they developed rather quickly and in l just a few short months... two of the babies had babies of their own. They're all fine, really cute. Boistrous and crazy. I've handled thme since birth like all my bunnies but they're still kinda crazy but once you catch them they give up and chill. I doubt its from their lineage but I won't rule it out. I did get some sweet color and faces on them though. A chocolate, a chin, and some other kind of chinish looking thing.

The End.
-JAK

 

[SunnieBunnie Rabbitry]

If I have a particular gene in my herd that I want to solidify, I will breed two full siblings together without any second thoughts. As Pam mentioned, you can easily "pull out" the genes you WANT from doing full sibling crosses, but also due to the limited gene pool - don't be surprised if you find an undesirable gene or trait from such crosses as well.

The up side of a sibling cross producing undesirable genes or traits is that you know what lines carry what "unmentionables"... such as Malocclusion, Hydrocephalus, Split P, etc.

For instance... I have a REW doe and a Lilac buck, litter mates siredby a GC REW and a petite Chocolate doe who threw awesome fur on her offspring. Genetically, I know the REW doe is either a Chocolate or Lilac. I have bred the two siblings for the purpose of solidifying and "doubling up" the traits that their parents carriedas I unfortunately no longer have the parents. I want a buck and doe each (hopefully) that has the Type and Density of coat that their sire hadPLUS the Even and Nicely Finished texture that their Dam consistently produced. If I can "fuse" in those 2 traits into the same rabbit... WOW! And in this case,itcan only be accomplished by the full sibling cross.

Another example is two Lynx siblings... the buck I KNOW is (AabbC_ddEEww) and the doe is known to be (AabbCcddEE Dwdw). Their type compliments each other quite well... The doe has the definition in ring bands that I am breeding for, however the buck has the rufus coloring that I need to solidify in my herd. I'm hoping by doing this cross I can get a good meeting of both qualities... the only drawback I can see at this point is the dam of these two is known to carry the gene for Hydrocephalus. On the upside... if this crossing does NOT yield any kits with Hydrocephalus, then the odds are pretty good that it was not passed on by the dam. So, there are basically 2 key points FOR doing this cross.

Dr. Stephen Roush wrote something about linebreeding/inbreeding and how it's interpreted in different species (Dog, Rabbit, Human) - I actually found it quite informative and fascinating. I'll ask to see if I can quote him.

~Sunshine

 

[pamnock]

There's also the issue of inbreeding depression. Some lines of inbreed animals have weaker immune systems, are more prone to disease and don't breed easily.

Pam

 

[TinysMom]

I am never good at this and its probably been explained at least 10 times since I've been on this forum.

Is line breeding the father/daughter and mother/son breeding - and inbreeding the sibling breedings?

If so - is there such a thing as linebreeding depression?

Peg

pamnock wrote:

There's also the issue of inbreeding depression. Some lines of inbreed animals have weaker immune systems, are more prone to disease and don't breed easily.

Pam

 

[SunnieBunnie Rabbitry]

Linebreeding is more of breeding to a Grandparent or 1/2 related Aunt/Uncle - it's more "removed" than Inbreeding.

Inbreeding is more of Parent to Offspring, Fullly related Aunt/Uncle to Niece/Nephew, Full and 1/2 Siblings. Basically closer in relation and more similar genetically than Linebreeding.

~Sunshine

 

[pamnock]

TinysMom wrote:

If so - is there such a thing as linebreeding depression?

Peg

Yes - because linebreeding is a form of inbreeding. (so it would still be called inbreeding depression).



Pam

 

[gentle giants]

TinysMom wrote:

I find myself wondering if that big head is tied to heart problems based upon things I've heard from folks....seems like everyone I know of who had flemish with big heads...had them die early from heart issues. I'm thinking of Apollo and Vash but it seems to me I heard of a breeder somewhere who had bred for that and now a couple of years later the offspring were dying off at younger ages - usually of heart issues.
Peg

NOOO! Now I'm scared! I am going to have to try and do some research on that, starting with all the Flemish people on here. OMG, what if my beautiful Sammy gets sick too? Ben, his dad, is the one with the enlarged heart on the right side, and I can tell when it's bugging him. The heat gets to him more than it used to, and if he gets over excited he will be pretty drooopy the next day or two. He is still hanging in there, and he is getting close to thre now I think, I will have to look up his b-day on his ped. It's so sad, because I'm almost afraid to get him out and play with him for fear of getting his heart going to much. If this happens to Sammy I think it would about kill me. I will have to take some pics of him and post them, he has the most beautiful face, big dark eyes and long eyelashes.

Anyway....*deep breath* Thanks so much to all the experienced breeders who have been weighing in on this, I have learned a lot. I have been backing off on my Flemish breeedings, and doing more of the Mini Rex, mainly because of space issues and the like. If I get the chance to get my hands on some really good steels, though, that'll probably change, LOL. Keep the comments/info coming!