bluepez
Well-Known Member
Thoughts?
Line Breeding
- Thread starter bluepez
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lelanatty
Natty Dwarfs Rabbitry
Line breeding can be very effective - if you know what you're doing. It seems to be a fairly common thing among breeders, especially those who have been in the business for a very long time. If you're thinking about doing it, try looking for resources that will help you, including line breeding charts, and breeders who do it in the breed you raise. Keep in mind though, that by using the same gene pool over and over, not only will you keep the good things, you will also amplify the occurrence of any bad genes that are there.
LindyS
Well-Known Member
I don't care to do it but know maybe one breeder who said they started to with silver martens. I don't know much about it but I preffer to keep my lines clean.
SNM
Well-Known Member
That is actually the best way to keep your lines "clean"
It can be your best friend our your worst enemy. Lines can actually be compatible if that makes sense.
If you line breed for too long you're going to start to have problems, and you will eventually have to outcross again to a new line
It can be your best friend our your worst enemy. Lines can actually be compatible if that makes sense.
If you line breed for too long you're going to start to have problems, and you will eventually have to outcross again to a new line
bluepez
Well-Known Member
So.. on the pedigrees when u see daughter to sire..and so forth..arba doesn't frown on that nor buyers?
LindyS
Well-Known Member
I call them clean by not line breeding. You have a differant opinion of clean. Anyway I don't care for it because I have seen what line breeding can do in dogs with a special on tv so I don t like it but don't don't I don't dislike anyone for doing so.
lelanatty
Natty Dwarfs Rabbitry
bluepez wrote:
If that father rabbit was a grand champion and had many wins, and the rabbits that he and his daughter produced by being line bred are very good also, or if the babies that they produce are even better than they are, I don't see why anyone would frown upon it. The most important thing about breeding rabbits is improving the breed, and sometimes line breeding can do that. As I said before though, it does come with responsibilities.
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Line breeding is the only way to create consistent type within a herd and is the "secret" to consistent wins. Crossing 2 lines can also produce excellent type and helps to avoid inbreeding depression. Breeders work to develop good "lines" and this is only done throughLINE breeding. Line breeding does not necessarily involve close inbreeding.
Example of line breeding: http://www.nockrabbits.com/LineBreedingChart.html
LindyS - You don't have a "line" if you are breeding completely unrelated animals.
Example of line breeding: http://www.nockrabbits.com/LineBreedingChart.html
LindyS - You don't have a "line" if you are breeding completely unrelated animals.
LindyS
Well-Known Member
True.
LindyS
Well-Known Member
I won't do it because I herd that it can backfire on you, you get nothing but peanuts, and you really have to know what ur doing. I don't believe the peanut part. I've only had rabbits for a month so I no where near informed enough to know what I'm doing. I might screw something up.
SNM
Well-Known Member
Know what you are doing before you do it. Ask a bunch of breeders at the memorial day show.
The doe we are getting is from a Mother X Son breeding. She has gorgeous type and color for a red. Like Lela said you have to be responsible. We do this hobby for the betterment of our breed
The doe we are getting is from a Mother X Son breeding. She has gorgeous type and color for a red. Like Lela said you have to be responsible. We do this hobby for the betterment of our breed
rabbitgeek
Well-Known Member
Line breeding is controlled in-breeding. It's used to reinforce genetic traits. So when you have a great rabbit, it's a proven way to almost "clone" that rabbit. But care must be taken to cull any rabbits that don't meet the mark since any undesireable traits will also be reinforced by linebreeding. Line breeding is common in many types of livestock.
As for "peanuts" that would be an issue with Netherland Dwarf rabbits. But if one watches out for which combinations produce peanuts, one can work around it.
Have a good day!
As for "peanuts" that would be an issue with Netherland Dwarf rabbits. But if one watches out for which combinations produce peanuts, one can work around it.
Have a good day!
pamnock
Well-Known Member
When breeding Dwarfs, "peanuts" are a part of life and not something we desire to "work around" because the goal is to breed for good Dwarf type, so breeders generally don't desire to use a bunch of non-dwarf carriers (BUD's)in the herd. If your goal is to breed dwarfs and not get peanuts - you shouldn't be breeding dwarfs. It's normal to get about 25% peanuts in a dwarf herd. In order to avoid getting peanuts (double dwarfs), you'd have to use a BUD in every breeding which will continue to push the size of your Dwarfs up to over show weight. (We have beensuccessfullycompetingwith breeds that carry the dwarfing gene for over 25 years - Holland Lops, Netherland Dwarfs, and Dwarf Hotots).
GorbyJobRabbits
Well-Known Member
If you keep just dragging in new rabbits it's hard to get some of the good genes going. My basically 'gods' of harlequins have a very tight nit herd. Hands down most beautiful Harlies. But they do have a few issues here and there. Their Japanese lines tend to be a little grouchy, and there are a few other things. IN the long run, like I said, to me they are the Gods of Harlequins.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
I have done linebreeding with lionheads (and thats how I was getting my best lionheads near the end of the time I worked with them) and I'm now trying to work on linebreeding with my flemish (with the little I breed).
I think linebreeding is great - as long as you know what you're looking for and do it responsibly. I actually have two different lines that I'm working on linebreeding and then crossing every 3rd generation so I don't get my lines too "inbred".
I used to do the "ooooh...here's a cute rabbit from breeder X and another cute rabbit from breeder Y....." and just buy rabbits that I thought I could use together based on color or type or whatever (when I started).
When I got started with my flemish - I went to a breeder and got some nice quality rabbits - and then went to another breeder with pictures of my rabbits and said, "What can you help me with?" and he got me some from his lines that would work with the issues I needed to correct.
I'm so pleased now with the lines I have going - I'll be crossing them (again) with my next breeding...so anxious to see what I'll get.
I think linebreeding is great - as long as you know what you're looking for and do it responsibly. I actually have two different lines that I'm working on linebreeding and then crossing every 3rd generation so I don't get my lines too "inbred".
I used to do the "ooooh...here's a cute rabbit from breeder X and another cute rabbit from breeder Y....." and just buy rabbits that I thought I could use together based on color or type or whatever (when I started).
When I got started with my flemish - I went to a breeder and got some nice quality rabbits - and then went to another breeder with pictures of my rabbits and said, "What can you help me with?" and he got me some from his lines that would work with the issues I needed to correct.
I'm so pleased now with the lines I have going - I'll be crossing them (again) with my next breeding...so anxious to see what I'll get.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
pamnock wrote:
Pam's chart is awesome and a great way to work with rabbits and create a line. I'm so glad she's shared it with us before.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
bluepez wrote:
But - when I do look at the pedigree - if I see that on a pedigree - then I am usually MORE willing to buy the rabbit (if it has passed the test of me looking at it) because I usually think then that the breeder KNEW what they were doing and there was something in those rabbits that they were trying to reproduce.
I don't even look at or consider a pedigree until I've done two things...looked at the animal (and the parents if possible) and talked to the breeder and get a feeling for their level of education on breeding. (I always ask WHY they did that particular breeding and what they were hoping to create or add to their herd....if they can't give me an answer to that - I will pass on the sale unless the rabbit is outstanding).
But - when I do look at the pedigree - if I see that on a pedigree - then I am usually MORE willing to buy the rabbit (if it has passed the test of me looking at it) because I usually think then that the breeder KNEW what they were doing and there was something in those rabbits that they were trying to reproduce.
rabbitgeek
Well-Known Member
*from rabbitgeek notes oct 27 2007
Genetics is a lot like the dice game Yahtzee. You try to get
sets of numbers to fill your scorecard. Sometimes you can "hold" or "fix" some of the variables by holding some dice before the next roll.
This is the similar in genetics. You can hold some of the variables by using certain rabbits with known color genetic traits, and the rest is a roll of the dice to see what you actually get in the litters. Some people compare it to playing poker with two decks of cards.
Some of our French Angoras were very good at throwing
multi-colored litters that we called "party packs." Very exciting to see what kind of colors developed. The skin color when born can often turn into something unexpected and all we could do was wait for the kits to grow into their coats.
I can recommend a little book called "Color Genetics of the
Netherland Dwarf Rabbit" by Bobby Schott. This little book takes you through many of the basic color genetic principles in easy to understand language with lots of good examples and some simple pictures.
Although the book is written for Netherland Dwarfs, the color genetics are the same for most breeds of rabbits. There are variations in color names in different breeds.
Pam Nock has a website with lots of color charts
to help get used to the color genetic codes used.
http://nockrabbits.com
Here is a yahoo group where color geeks hangout
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/rabbit_genetics
That should keep you busy for a few hours.
Have a good day!
Franco Rios
Genetics is a lot like the dice game Yahtzee. You try to get
sets of numbers to fill your scorecard. Sometimes you can "hold" or "fix" some of the variables by holding some dice before the next roll.
This is the similar in genetics. You can hold some of the variables by using certain rabbits with known color genetic traits, and the rest is a roll of the dice to see what you actually get in the litters. Some people compare it to playing poker with two decks of cards.
Some of our French Angoras were very good at throwing
multi-colored litters that we called "party packs." Very exciting to see what kind of colors developed. The skin color when born can often turn into something unexpected and all we could do was wait for the kits to grow into their coats.
I can recommend a little book called "Color Genetics of the
Netherland Dwarf Rabbit" by Bobby Schott. This little book takes you through many of the basic color genetic principles in easy to understand language with lots of good examples and some simple pictures.
Although the book is written for Netherland Dwarfs, the color genetics are the same for most breeds of rabbits. There are variations in color names in different breeds.
Pam Nock has a website with lots of color charts
to help get used to the color genetic codes used.
http://nockrabbits.com
Here is a yahoo group where color geeks hangout
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/rabbit_genetics
That should keep you busy for a few hours.
Have a good day!
Franco Rios
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
SNM wrote:
The year I was able to make it to Lionhead Nationals - we brought Bob Whitman's Blue Boy (lionhead) with us because we had sold him to a couple that bred together. When they came to the hotel room to pick him up - we talked for quite a while about the various "lines" in the lionhead gene pool.
A brief part of it....we discussed three major lines - one was the "Tuborg" line out of Pridelands (Theresa Mueller). Neither one of us had lines from Tuborg but were thinking of bringing them in.
The second line was out of Cimmaron's Firebear - who is on MANY MANY pedigrees - especially in California/Pacific Northwest. Firebear was considered one of the most "typey" lionheads around (he passed away a year or so ago). At that point in time - knowing Firebear was in the pedigree was oftentimes enough to up the price a bit ... especially if he was on both sides of the pedigree. Unfortunately - his offspring did not always keep a full mane.
Then there was "Blue Boy" - a not-so great looking buck that Bob Whitman had imported from the UK and since he was one of the first lionheads here in the states....he was on many pedigrees too at that time. (I got him because Bob was getting out of lionheads). I was selling Blue Boy because I had his son. Blue Boy wasn't that "typey" and his offspring might not be that typey - but one thing that we knew was - his offspring kept nice full manes.
What I was trying to do (as was this other couple) was to bring the Cimmaron Firebear lines together with the Blue Boy lines to get the typey rabbits that kept their manes. (We were talking about bringing Tuborg lines in the following year to have another line to work with and not get too inbred).
We were going to halfway work together on certain colors/types and buy back from each other every year or so to keep the bloodlines fresh and yet the same lines.
Unfortunately - a few months later - that couple separated and split up the rabbits and they eventually divorced.
My point of all this though is to say - at least in the case of lionheads - that while I'm not a big fan of caring who's on the pedigree (because any line can throw a bad rabbit)....there are oftentimes when you can see certain things about the various lines and it is good to talk to experienced breeders (in the breed you're working with) to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of the various lines.
Just my .02....but I'm off to start a topic on avoiding "barn blindness"...
Oh wow - this brings back a discussion from years ago that I often think about.
The year I was able to make it to Lionhead Nationals - we brought Bob Whitman's Blue Boy (lionhead) with us because we had sold him to a couple that bred together. When they came to the hotel room to pick him up - we talked for quite a while about the various "lines" in the lionhead gene pool.
A brief part of it....we discussed three major lines - one was the "Tuborg" line out of Pridelands (Theresa Mueller). Neither one of us had lines from Tuborg but were thinking of bringing them in.
The second line was out of Cimmaron's Firebear - who is on MANY MANY pedigrees - especially in California/Pacific Northwest. Firebear was considered one of the most "typey" lionheads around (he passed away a year or so ago). At that point in time - knowing Firebear was in the pedigree was oftentimes enough to up the price a bit ... especially if he was on both sides of the pedigree. Unfortunately - his offspring did not always keep a full mane.
Then there was "Blue Boy" - a not-so great looking buck that Bob Whitman had imported from the UK and since he was one of the first lionheads here in the states....he was on many pedigrees too at that time. (I got him because Bob was getting out of lionheads). I was selling Blue Boy because I had his son. Blue Boy wasn't that "typey" and his offspring might not be that typey - but one thing that we knew was - his offspring kept nice full manes.
What I was trying to do (as was this other couple) was to bring the Cimmaron Firebear lines together with the Blue Boy lines to get the typey rabbits that kept their manes. (We were talking about bringing Tuborg lines in the following year to have another line to work with and not get too inbred).
We were going to halfway work together on certain colors/types and buy back from each other every year or so to keep the bloodlines fresh and yet the same lines.
Unfortunately - a few months later - that couple separated and split up the rabbits and they eventually divorced.
My point of all this though is to say - at least in the case of lionheads - that while I'm not a big fan of caring who's on the pedigree (because any line can throw a bad rabbit)....there are oftentimes when you can see certain things about the various lines and it is good to talk to experienced breeders (in the breed you're working with) to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of the various lines.
Just my .02....but I'm off to start a topic on avoiding "barn blindness"...
