Jack's Bladder Sludge - Part 2
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ra7751
Well-Known Member
Umm...this is another one of those issues that causes me concerns. I would like to offer a couple of ideas to discuss with your vet. First, rabbits do metabolize calcium differently than most animals. Blaming calcium intake totallyis somewhat of an outdated idea. Rabbits are much like humans and some are more prone to calcifications than others. Quite a few years and thousands of lessons ago....we had a rabbit that continually had a full bladder that glowed brightly on rads. At that time, we followed what was generally considered correct information and tried to eliminate as much calcium as possible....we found that it wasn't the problem. I finally traced this rabbit's issues to two primary concerns....first, the sludge was coming from mineral content in the water and second, he had active EC. At one point some time ago, Oxbow actually offered a low mineral content water. EC will also cause sludge due to shedding spores andis often misinterpreted as calcium. I have found that dehydration is as much responsible for sludge than anything else. I would alsofurther adjust the diet. Our huge Flemish Giants don't receive that many pellets per day between the two of them. Pellets contain a lot of "baggage" and can stress the renal system by the excessive protein.
I would also like to point out that rabbits have bones and teeth and they need calcium to make sure things stay in order there. My point in all of this is that the idea that excessive calcium in the diet is the only thing that can cause bladder sludge and that just is not accurate. Look "outside the box"....sludge is usually a combination of numeorus concerns....calcium may be only a part of the issue.
Randy
I would also like to point out that rabbits have bones and teeth and they need calcium to make sure things stay in order there. My point in all of this is that the idea that excessive calcium in the diet is the only thing that can cause bladder sludge and that just is not accurate. Look "outside the box"....sludge is usually a combination of numeorus concerns....calcium may be only a part of the issue.
Randy
ra7751
Well-Known Member
As you have already found in the archives, I don't use distilled water. There are vital minerals in good water.....it's the "hard" part of the water you don't want. I actually found the water issue by accident. The first time I dealt with sludge was very challenging as we followed the long held notion that we should eliminate calcium. I was scrubbing an aquarium one night dthe thought struck me that the crud I was cleaning looked just like his urine. We switched him to a low mineral content water and he never had sludge again depsite being having active EC.
The thing with the misiformation regarding calcium goes along with other issues....and something I preach from time to time. The thing with a rabbit is to not make drastic changes in any direction. The idea is to "steady the ship" and get things into proper order. And again going back to the calcium argument, as I mentioned, if an animal has bones and teeth....they need calcium. The key to that is to keep things in proper parameters. There can always be too much of a good thing just as there can be too little of a good thing. In these cases, I like to look at the overall husbandry protocols and make appropriate modification.
Randy
The thing with the misiformation regarding calcium goes along with other issues....and something I preach from time to time. The thing with a rabbit is to not make drastic changes in any direction. The idea is to "steady the ship" and get things into proper order. And again going back to the calcium argument, as I mentioned, if an animal has bones and teeth....they need calcium. The key to that is to keep things in proper parameters. There can always be too much of a good thing just as there can be too little of a good thing. In these cases, I like to look at the overall husbandry protocols and make appropriate modification.
Randy
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
This is more of a question for Randy, but what about adding some apple cider vinegar to the water? I know this is an old wives' treatment for bladder sludge as it is supposed to acidify the urine, which would dissolve the calcium carbonate crystals that make up bladder sludge. I just wonder if adding acid to the stomach can lead to more acidic urine, and if that actually reduces sludge?
Also, isn't the calcium/phosphorus ratio in a diet more important than the total calcium content in terms of sludge?
Also, isn't the calcium/phosphorus ratio in a diet more important than the total calcium content in terms of sludge?
Pipp
Well-Known Member
Hopefully Randy will respond soon, but from previous research, the vinegar idea didn't do much for those who tried it, maybe because it had to be diluted so much, and the negatives of causing the rabbits to drink less water far outweighed the benefits.
Dr. Harcourt-Brown is considered a sludge expert and makes no mention of it in her 'Textbook of Rabbit Medicine'.
The cranberry juice, frequent at-home sub-q fluids, eliminating pellets and administering pain meds and antibiotics (when needed) seemed to work the best.
Does an ultrasound require anesthetic? I wouldn't think so but I've never had a rabbit undergo that procedure. It is an alternative re: stones and sludge.
Chemistry isn't my forte, but I am curious about the sludge analysis, because I do believe bladder/kidney stones can have different compositions, and true sludge is different from just the calcium deposits frequently seen in urine. I always wondered about that.
Sure hope Jack is feeling better soon.
sasray:
Dr. Harcourt-Brown is considered a sludge expert and makes no mention of it in her 'Textbook of Rabbit Medicine'.
The cranberry juice, frequent at-home sub-q fluids, eliminating pellets and administering pain meds and antibiotics (when needed) seemed to work the best.
Does an ultrasound require anesthetic? I wouldn't think so but I've never had a rabbit undergo that procedure. It is an alternative re: stones and sludge.
Chemistry isn't my forte, but I am curious about the sludge analysis, because I do believe bladder/kidney stones can have different compositions, and true sludge is different from just the calcium deposits frequently seen in urine. I always wondered about that.
Sure hope Jack is feeling better soon.
sas
ray:
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
I see, I was wondering what the "new medicine" take was on an "old medicine" idea and hadn't heard anything about it before.
You're right that the composition of sludge can vary. I don't know how that happens, but I know that the forum bunny Chase who has been having persistent sludge issues had some stones that were analyzed to be calcium carbonate.
I think Bill's treatment is super. It's good that the urine cultures didn't have bacteria. I guess it will just be something that you have to deal with, I was just thinking of some possible other solutions in case there's something we've missed.
You're right that the composition of sludge can vary. I don't know how that happens, but I know that the forum bunny Chase who has been having persistent sludge issues had some stones that were analyzed to be calcium carbonate.
I think Bill's treatment is super. It's good that the urine cultures didn't have bacteria. I guess it will just be something that you have to deal with, I was just thinking of some possible other solutions in case there's something we've missed.
Amy27
Task Force
I am really curious about the apple cider vinegar. Here is what I am wondering. The stomach is so acidic. Wouldn't the apple cedar vinegar have to be more acidic then the stomach for it to reach the bladder and have an effect on the calcium? If the stomach is more acidic then the apple cider vinegar, would it even matter either way?
I know awhile ago I talked to my vet about giving Chase pineapple because it was acidic and she told me it would never make it past Chase's stomach because the stomach was more acidic.
Pipp, Chase has had an ultrasound when they couldn't tell very well on the x-ray how much sludge was in the bladder. She did not have to be given any anesthesia.
I am going to look up Dr. Harcourt-Brown on the internet. I didn't know there was a sludge expert. Thanks for mentioning that Pipp.
ETA: Pipp, does that book by Dr. Harcourt-Brown have a lot of information about sludge? I may have to purchase it. Someone needs to write a book about nothing but sludge!
I know awhile ago I talked to my vet about giving Chase pineapple because it was acidic and she told me it would never make it past Chase's stomach because the stomach was more acidic.
Pipp, Chase has had an ultrasound when they couldn't tell very well on the x-ray how much sludge was in the bladder. She did not have to be given any anesthesia.
I am going to look up Dr. Harcourt-Brown on the internet. I didn't know there was a sludge expert. Thanks for mentioning that Pipp.
ETA: Pipp, does that book by Dr. Harcourt-Brown have a lot of information about sludge? I may have to purchase it. Someone needs to write a book about nothing but sludge!
So this is going to seem totally out of the blue - but does your bunny get a lot of sunshine? I've been doing a lot of research on this because I'm suffering from a bunny who has perpetual sludge in her urine and my vet tried to tell me it was her diet - although both my other rabbits eat the exact same things and have no issue - so I'm not convinced.
I was reading that lack of sunshine can lead to metabolic bone disorders which could account for heavy sludge and molar spurs. (Both of which my rabbit suffers).
Of course, she gets hardly any sunshine because I keep her blinds closed to keep out the hot sun in the day - and she spends all day sleeping under our bed. (sigh). Sometimes I feel like I'm killing my rabbits slowly by trying to keep them healthy.
Anyways - just a thought as I'm on the hunt as well for a good reason for the sludge.
Nadia
I was reading that lack of sunshine can lead to metabolic bone disorders which could account for heavy sludge and molar spurs. (Both of which my rabbit suffers).
Of course, she gets hardly any sunshine because I keep her blinds closed to keep out the hot sun in the day - and she spends all day sleeping under our bed. (sigh). Sometimes I feel like I'm killing my rabbits slowly by trying to keep them healthy.
Anyways - just a thought as I'm on the hunt as well for a good reason for the sludge.
Nadia
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
I agree that the acidity of the juice or vinegar may not make it all the way to the bladder. I really don't know much about how the stomach controls its pH (sad to say!). If there is extra acid added, like from drinking vinegar, does it pass through the stomach into the GI tract? Is it absorbed into the blood? Does it stay in the stomach? The acid would need to get into the blood to get to the kidneys and thus the bladder, and I always learned that the blood buffers itself to stay at a constant pH of 7.4, so any acid added to the blood would be neutralized.
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Buffer/Buffer.html
Perhaps there are other ways to acidify the urine? Cranberry juice? These are human links:
http://www.dvullc.com/foodtoacidifyurine.pdf
http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/552
What strikes me is the mention of oxalates. I know many brassica veggies (cabbage, broccoli and the like) are high in oxalates, and some bladder stones are Calcium Oxalate.
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Buffer/Buffer.html
Perhaps there are other ways to acidify the urine? Cranberry juice? These are human links:
http://www.dvullc.com/foodtoacidifyurine.pdf
http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/552
What strikes me is the mention of oxalates. I know many brassica veggies (cabbage, broccoli and the like) are high in oxalates, and some bladder stones are Calcium Oxalate.
Amy27
Task Force
I have been reading the thread about sunshine and seeing what I can do to try and get more vitamin D in my rabbits diet.
I also have 2 buns that eat the same diet. Neither have gotten pellets in over 3 years, probably closer to 4. But Chase still has a chronic calcium issue. I think sludge is blamed on the diet to often. But in a way, I can't blame the vets, there doesn't seem to be a lot of other information out there on it.
If you come across any good information on your hunt, please share with us. I am always open to trying new things.
I also have 2 buns that eat the same diet. Neither have gotten pellets in over 3 years, probably closer to 4. But Chase still has a chronic calcium issue. I think sludge is blamed on the diet to often. But in a way, I can't blame the vets, there doesn't seem to be a lot of other information out there on it.
If you come across any good information on your hunt, please share with us. I am always open to trying new things.
