Help please - RIP

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glittermomma

Active Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
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Location
KY
I just got a bunny today and the lady said she had to wash it cause it had poop all over it. Which of course sent up red flags to me. Well she said this to hubs as I was down stairs doing laundry. Said it had been eating the cedar chips and that they gave it tetracyclin for it. It just pooped a massive soft poop with tons of mucus. She said her vet prescribed this and that said the bun would be ok but idk just doesn't feel right so wanted to get some feedback. She tends to take her buns away too early from their moms. She gave us one before that was too young and it had gut problems and we had to heal it back to health. I just don't want to get my other babies sick until we can get it checked out on our own. It was also suppose to be a girl but I swear I am seeing and feeling some undefined balls.
 
I got it to drink some water and got it to eat a little hay and oats.
 
I would take it straight to the vets
 
Also how old is the bunny? This woman sounds like a dreadful breeder to me. I would get it checked at the vet and also ask them to sex it. Buns go down hill very fast so I would seek medical help x
 
Cedar is toxic and deadly to small animals without it being ingested. Vet soonest and if she's using Cedar she doesn't know squat about bunnies. Cedar is high in toxic phenols and pine can be too unless it's been kiln dried which will remove the phenols from the pine only. The fumes can be deadly--reason why cedar is used in hope chests and closets is called moths.
 
You need to get this rabbit to your own vet immediately! I seriously doubt this lady took this rabbit to a vet, or that a vet would prescribe tetracycline, especially for the reason stated. Tetracycline isn't commonly prescribed for rabbits. You also need to quarantine and sterilize. This rabbit likely has something contagious like bacterial enteritis or possibly coccidiosis, and you don't want your other rabbits infected.

WARNING: links contain medical related photos
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Generalities/Enteritis_en.htm
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Protozoal_diseases/Cocc_en.htm

I agree, there are lots of red flags. A rabbit requiring a bath because it is covered in poop is not normal, and indicates a serious health problem. Plus the fact that cedar chips, that are known to be harmful to rabbits, are being used. This lady is highly irresponsible and should have never handed over a sick rabbit to you.
 
Yup see that is what I was wondering. I've only been a bunmom for a yr now but know that cedar is a huge no no and taking them away too young is also. I have the sick bunbun in another room in the house and we are going to take her to the vet tomorrow when they open. I am just shocked and horrified that she failed to mention how sick this one is ( till the dropping off) and act like its no biggie. I've only seem that medicine prescribed for snuffled before so was unsure if it was used for anything else. Thanks everyone.. poor bunbun so did not deserve this.
 
I hope he gets a better very fast x
 
Thanks, I hope so too. I forgot to mention there is also a horendous smell. At first I couldn't place it.. but now I remember where I have smelt it before. Long time ago I had a hamster that had wet tail and that is exactly how his poops smelled and I had to nurse him back to health. I went to check on the bunbun and it is covered in runny diarrhea now :/ Poor thing I just keep trying to make sure its eating and drinking till tomorrow. It probably is missing its momma too and siblings. I am not sure the exact age but it looks young.
 
Oh my gosh, that poor bunny. :( At the very least, I'm glad she's made it to a very responsible home now. The person who brought you the bunny sounds really uneducated about them. Best of luck, I hope she makes it to the vet tomorrow and they can help you and her out. :pray:
 
Sadly she passed early this morning. Yeah we do not have any emergency vets so we had planned on taking her early this morning but we awoke to her passing. I let the breeder know and she tried to give me a 3 week old bunny to replace it 0.o I told her that that is way too young and she needs to let the babies stay longer with the Mom.
 
I'm sorry to hear this happened. At least she was with you and you cared instead of the breeder who didn't give a toss..
I hate people like that...

Vanessa
 
Oh no, I'm so sorry. :( Binky free, little bunny. :pray:

You should pass this back to the 'breeder', to hopefully prevent any future rabbits from a similar fate.
 
I'm so sorry you lost the little one :( Getting a new pet is supposed to be a joyous occasion - it should never be anything like this!

As horrible as it is that your plans to get another rabbit took such a tragic turn, though, this rabbit's death has the potential to save countless others if you're willing to take a stand against what this woman is doing. If no one brings the authorities into this situation, she's going to continue bringing kits into the world under deplorable circumstances, selling 3-4 week old babies on the verge of death and everything else she's doing.

Taking rabbits from their mom at 3-4 weeks old, giving rabbits cedar bedding, selling rabbits known to be sick, etc... all very unethical, very cruel and pretty much a death sentence for the kits. NO ONE worthy of calling themselves a breeder would ever know and care SO little about the health and needs of the animals they breed. As a hobby breeder myself (of sugar gliders, not rabbits) - and simply as a pet owner - I find what she's doing positively revolting.

Real breeders consider it their sworn responsibility to provide proper care for all of their animals, make sure they do all they can to ensure the animals they produce are healthy (including not weaning them way too early) to strive to *improve* the line(s) they work with by making responsible choices about which animals to breed, how to pair them, etc. This woman actually gives backyard breeders a bad (well, worse) name! Her wanton disregard for the health of her animals is arguably WORSE than that of PPP (Perfect Pocket Pets), a prolific and despicable sugar glider mill breeder with a reputation for selling gliders that shouldn't be weaned yet, gliders sick with Giardia, you name it.

Also, you said the smell reminded you of "wet tail" in a hamster... makes me wonder if the diarrhea was caused by more than just exposure to cedar. There are numerous, highly infectious bacterial disesases that thrive when animals are kept in neglectful conditions, most of which are triggered/worsened by stress (such as being taken from mom and sent to a new home at 4 weeks old) and some of which (like Giardia) can appear to be dormant at times. It's entirely possible that most or all of this woman's herd is infected with something contageous.

~~~~~

As for how to go about reporting her, I spent a couple hours digging into the various options you can persue based on what you've told us about her breeding and care practices - here's the TLDR of it all:

Unfortunately by the looks of things, Kentucky has a pretty bad reputation when it comes to cracking down on cruelty, but it's still worth a try to report her to state authorities as she appears to be in clear violation of this statute:

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]525.130 Cruelty to animals in the second degree
[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif](1) A person is guilty of cruelty to animals in the second degree when except as authorized by law he intentionally or wantonly:
[/FONT]​
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif](a) Subjects any animal to or causes cruel or injurious mistreatment through... failing to provide adequate food, drink, space, or health care, or by any other means;
[/FONT]​
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif](b) Subjects any animal in his custody to cruel neglect[/FONT]​

Information on how to go about filing an animal cruelty case against her can be found here.

It's worth noting that animal shelters are quick to get involved in cruelty/neglect/substandard care cases. They'll be intimately familiar with the process of trying to get animals out of bad situations and persue legal action against abusers - they'll undoubtedly have a lot of tips and information/resources to offer you beyond just what's readily available online (in particular, they'll know the details of local laws and ordinances; something I couldn't even look into since I don't know what city/county you're in).

This page has a list of shelters and other groups in Kentucky that get involved with cruelty issues (there are six categories of listings - the first one appears to be the only one that's applicable here). Unfortunately it's sorted alphabetically by the groups' names, so you'll need to skim through the list to find the one(s) that are located within your county (or, if it differs, the county the breeder lives in).

I think getting a shelter involved would probably be more effective than reporting her to the authorities on your own; however, reporting her directly would presumably be less time-consuming.

~~~~~

Because she considers herself a breeder, she may be subject to USDA regulation... though that looks somewhat iffy. The rule that's most likely to cause a small-scale breeder to require a license only applies if you have more than four "breeding" females (which does NOT mean that you actively breed them - supposedly, it just means unspayed but even that's not stated as fact) and applies to "all breeding female dogs, cats, and/or small exotic or wild mammals, such as hedgehogs, degus, spiny mice, prairie dogs, flying squirrels, and jerboas"... but it looks like rabbits and guinea pigs are exempt from that rule (based on being notably absent from the list and finding numerous "unofficial" websites belonging to legitimate rabbit breeders stating that rabbits are exempt).

However, you may still be able to submit a complaint that they'll look into if you're willing to be deliberately vague - you could suggest that you think she might also breed other animals, sell to pet shops, etc. or say you're not sure how many/what types of animals she breeds. Basically, indicate that you think she might be required to have a license; you're not sure if she's exempt or not - if she's obviously not, then they're not going to send an inspector to her house and, of course, it would be lying if you specifically told them she wasn't exempt if you know she is. Given how obnoxiously vague USDA licensing regulations are and the fact that most of it *isn't* black and white but rather, allows individual inspectors to have a LOT of power, it would be 100% understandable for someone submitting a complaint to not know for sure one way or the other if the person they're complaining about is required to have a license.

[Inc: non-relevant rant about the stupid USDA regulations; feel free to skip it :p...

Seriously, when it comes to things that aren't spelled out in full, one inspector can decide you don't have to have a license and the next one can decide you DO - I felt like I was swimming in red tape trying to sort things out when I became a breeder! I couldn't even find anything official to state that female Syrian hamsters don't count towards my total (it's "common knowledge" that they don't, but that only means that *most* inspectors won't count them)... or rabbits, for that matter, but Nala and Gaz are spayed so they wouldn't count either way.


If I wanted my butt to be 100% covered, I would've had to pay an application fee and pay a vet to come to my home/conduct an inspection before I would be able to get an APHIS inspector to come out... all just to get it in writing that I definitely didn't need a license, simply because if someone sic'd an inspector on me later, that one could arbitrarily decide the hamsters counted and - unless I had it in writing from a previous inspector that I was exempt - I would get in trouble for breeding without a license because the hammies (that I didn't breed) + Hurricane (pet only female glider housed with a neutered male; females aren't spayed except for medical reasons due to how risky it is) + the ONE female glider I actually bred = more than four "breeding females". Ridiculous! I no longer have the hammies, though, so I'm glad I didn't go through all that hassle and expense!]

APHIS (the USDA's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service) is responsible for upholding the Animal Welfare Act (a federal law meant "to protect certain animals from inhumane treatment and neglect") and they actively search for unlicensed or unregistered "facilities" (which includes breeders), so if they have reason to think she *might* be illegally operating without a license then they'll probably send an inspector to pay her a visit.

From the official factsheet on the AWA:
In addition to conducting regular inspections, APHIS will perform inspections in response to public input about the conditions of regulated facilities. Concerned individuals are also encouraged to inform APHIS about facilities that should be licensed or regiestered.

Many State and local governments have passed additional animal welfare legislation. The public is encouraged to work with Federal, State and local officials as well as local humane organizations to help eliminate inhumane treatment of animals.
In other words, APHIS strongly encourages you to report anything suspicious/questionable to them, and to any other authority you can. Regarding my rant above, I really did do a LOT of research into whether or not I needed to attempt to go through the licensing process when becoming a breeder despite having every reason to believe that I'm exepmt from needing one (and into whether or not I had the option to get a license anyway even if I wasn't required to have one). From talking to other breeders, I found out that if you breed animals to sell them, it's ridiculously easy for someone to submit a complaint and get a USDA inspector out to your home regardless of how flimsy their pretext is.

Even if she's exempt from needing a license (which she probably is), I'm betting there's a good chance that an inspector who saw obvious neglect (such as sick animals, cedar bedding, etc.) would notify other authorities (and being called in by the USDA would presumably get a lot of attention from them).

You can make a report to the USDA by mail, phone, email or by simply filling out a quick little form online :D.

If it were me, I'd fill out the online form, telling them:
"A breeder sold me a really sick animal, which died less than 24 hours later, that was only four weeks old (when it should have stayed with its mom until 8 weeks old). She told me it was sick because it had "eaten cedar chips" (which it should never have been exposed to because cedar bedding is extremely toxic to small animals), but it also had extremely severe diarrhea that suggested a probable bacterial infection of some sort. She offered to replace it with a THREE week old animal.

I was unable to get a look at her other animals or the conditions they're being kept in, as she delivered the sick animal to my home." [And of course, provide them with her name and address.]

That would be very alarming, totally truthful and still vague enough to not suggest that the matter might be outside of USDA jurisdiction.

~~~~~

There are (sadly) only 15 states as of 6/2013 with laws preventing the underage sale of rabbits (though Colorado's law sucks as it only applies to rabbits under 4 weeks old ><)... but the good news is that Kentucky is one of them!

From the HRS website:

New Jersey, California, Kentucky, South Carolina, Maine, Maryland, Montana, and Pennsylvania ban the dying of rabbits and other animals and the sale or giveaway of rabbits under 2 months of age
It seems your state doesn't have an HRS chapter; however, there IS an official contact person listed:​
Mary Kalb - [email protected]

I would email her about the situation (in particular, the illegal underage sales), as I bet she'd be an excellent resource to guide you through reporting the illegal activity.

~~~~~

If you only report her through one of those three channels, I would definitely persue the HRS/underage sale avenue - it's the most blatantly illegal and probably one of the easier things to prove. If you still have the rabbit's body, you might ask your vet if you could bring it in to have them confirm that the rabbit was well under 2 months of age and put that in writing - I suspect that would really come in handy later as a way to prove that she sold an underage rabbit. If any of your conversations with her (like the one about a 3 week old replacement bunny) happened via email, definitely save them... but I'm guessing everything has been happening over the phone, heh.

You may not need proof of her arranging an illegal sale but if you don't know anyone else she's sold to willing to attest to being sold an underage kit, then there's a good chance it could make a HUGE difference. If you're comfortable with your ability to get her to say something incriminating without arousing too much suspicion in the process and you have (or can borrow) a smart phone, there are free apps available for both iPhones and android phones that record phone calls. Based on the fact that you'll probably be wanting to record an outgoing call (rather than waiting for her to call you), that you won't want her to know she's being recorded and that you obviously wouldn't want an app that requires you to be using the speakerphone option, Lifehacker's recommendation seems to be this app (Android only; doesn't work "right out of the box" for all Android phones but appears to be well-supported by the app's creators).

As for legality, in most states - including Kentucky - only one party must give consent in order for it to be legal to record a phone conversation (ie if you're recording it, you're the consenting party and it's legal even if the other person has NO idea they're being recorded). (source)

Ideally, though, I think it's best to report her through all possible channels - that gives you the best chance of having at least some of the charges stick/generating a penalty that hurts her enough that she probably won't be stupid enough to go right back to what she's doing.

The online form to report her to the USDA/APHIS would only take a few minutes to fill out so even though it may not amount to anything, there's really no reason not to submit a complaint with them (which can be done anonymously if you'd prefer, though I believe your info would only be used if they wanted to contact you and wouldn't be available to the person you're complaining about).

As for the cruelty/neglect aspects (beyond the illegal underage sale)... since HRS likes to get involved with cruelty cases in general, the representative for your state may be able to guide you through reporting your other concerns in addition to the blatant illegal sale of underage rabbits, so if your free-time is pretty limited you might wait until you hear back from her to determine whether or not there's even a need to contact a shelter.

~~~~~

Bottom line, she IS breaking at *least* one law (probably two, but unfortunately the animal cruelty statues are fairly open to interpretation) and it doesn't have to take that much of your time to report her to numerous agencies, many of which are legally obligated to at least show up and take a look around her home before they have the option to dismiss your complaints.

Even in a worst-case scenario where nothing managed to amount to any fines or criminal or civil charges, she'd almost certainly still end up getting surprise visits from (at the minimum) a USDA inspector and either an Animal Control Officer or a Sherriff. I take excellent care of my animals and pride myself on breeding ethically and responsibly, yet if that ever happened to me, it would be VERY unsettling and would definitely make me really paranoid. I can't even imagine how much scarier multiple "surprise visits" from nosy/concerned authorities would be if I were a horrendously irresponsible breeder who actually had a LOT to be worried about!

The psychological effects of being investigated on numerous counts of illegal/unethical breeding practices could potentially be enough on their own to at least make her reevaluate what she's doing and perhaps even make positive changes to how she breeds (or better yet, it might scare her out of breeding entirely).

Oh, and if all else fails, sic PETA on them. I have a pretty fierce hatred of PETA - as a whole, they're essentially zealots who love to take things to unreasonable extremes... but no one wants PETA on their door step, so if you're willing to play dirty, they're a viable and obnoxious last resort! :p

~~~~~

Best of luck in persuing this if you do (and pretty please do, for the innocent bunnies's sakes)! I'd love to hear how things pan out, and if you run into any snags or dead ends, I'd be happy to do anything I can to help out.

Neglectful pet owners are bad enough, but neglectful BREEDERS are a million times worse - bringing baby animals into the world just to make them suffer horribly through neglectful care and then yanking them away from their mother at far too young an age just so you can pass them off to unsuspecting would-be owners right before they die... there aren't even words to fully express just how soul-crushing the very thought of that is. Why create new lives just to cause them to die unnecessarily under miserable - and EASILY preventable - circumstances when they're still babies? That's so senseless! Life is sacred, whether it's a person or an animal, and no one should be forced to suffer at the hand of another.

Hell, even people who breed rabbits for meat (at least the small-time meat breeders, dunno about large commercial ones) have the decency and ethics to make sure their rabbits are well cared for while they're alive, make sure their needs are met, get them appropriate treatment should they fall ill or get infected with mites or any other parasite and, when the time comes, have enough respect and empathy to end the rabbits' lives humanely in a way that doesn't inflict suffering... and at least those rabbits die for a purpose and are given a good life until that day.

People like the woman who sold you this poor rabbit need to be sent the message that what they're doing is NOT okay, nor is it legal.

~~~~~

Binky free, precious little kit - your life ended before it even really began :tears2:. You endured heart-breaking neglect at the hands of a horrible backyard breeder... please know that NONE of it was your fault! You deserved *far* better than the hand you were dealt.

While you got less than a day's reprieve from that abuse, I'm glad you at least got a glimpse at a better side of humanity... that you knew, however briefly, what it was like to be loved, comforted and tended to by someone who would've done anything to be able to save you and turn your life around. I really hope that provided some solace as you departed this world.


Your suffering ended, perhaps you're finally getting a chance to be a happy bunny on the other side of the rainbow bridge... frolicking with other rabbits, eating nummy veggies and all the Craisins and such your heart desires, chewing up all the things that it would've been very naughty to wreck while living in a human home... all with no recollection of what you endured during your four short weeks of life.
:rainbow:
 
Whoa.. and thank you so much! I was wondering if there is a way to report someone, but hadn't looked into it yet. She said she got a sick bunny from someone else and it made her bunnies sick and that she cleaned it all up and bleached things and thought it was gone. IDK I am getting so many different things from her but the point doesn't change.. she did know the bun was sick and still decided to sell it to us. I agree.. though I am not a breeder I am just an animal lover, majority of breeders don't do this as they love their animals and take care of them. Thank you so much for all the information. She also breeds chickens and pits too but I have never bought them or been to her place of business/home. She has another sick baby that is a sibling of the one that passed and another non related passed last night from the cold. I did send her some facts on how its bad to wean them so young and about the cedar but she did not really say anything back. Again thank you so much for the info. &#9829;
 
I would be so angry if I met that woman! It sounds like she is not a rabbit hobbyist - she just breeds animals that are in demand for money. Definitely report her, if only to avenge those poor creatures suffering in her abhorrent care.
 

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