Do you linebreed?

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TinysMom

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I'm about to start linebreeding with a doe and buck but I'd love to hear any good tips y'all have. I really have seen good rabbits out of this combination (two litters now) and I think it would be great to use them to develop my own line!

Peg
 
Many breeders use linebreeding as a way to consistantly produce stock with similar characteristics.

One draw back of linebreeding is that it can result in "inbreeding depression" with lowered conception rates and less disease resistance. Cumulative effects of negative genes may also result.

We've been linebreeding for over 15 years and occasionally add new stock for "hybrid vigor". A larger herd would have more genetic diversity, and could be linebred much longer than a small herd.



Pam

New! Coat Colors of the Domestic Rabbit

http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/


 
I've linebred for 2yrs now - purposefully to bring out hidden recessives.

Now that I know what my rabbits are and aren't capable of, I'm starting to get rid of the rabbits that carry unwanted genes (mainly for color, *luckily* I have not run into issues of Maloclussion or other abnormalities with my stock - and I've done tight breedings). Those rabbits that I'm getting rid of, I'm replacing with outside rabbits that can contribute other needed genes (like fur density & texture)... however all new rabbits will be testbred for these unwanted genes before moving forward with incorporating them into my main herd.

I will continue to my breedings based on results I see with the litters... If one cross does extremely well (type, fur, & condition), but not another - I'll stick with what works best.
 
SunnieBunnie Rabbitry wrote:
I've linebred for 2yrs now - purposefully to bring out hidden recessives.
Are you doing father to daughter and mother to son? Or cousins?

Here is what I plan to do - I love DJ's Mona Kea (tort doe) and I have her granddaughter (from another breeder). I plan to breed her granddaughter back to one of Mona's sons (but not the father since I don't have him) and I plan to breed Mona's sable point daughter back to her sable point father. I thought I would also breed Mona to her son (he is possibly an auction entry for the lionhead national convention - so I need to do the breeding before May). I was also going to breed him with every tort doe I have - before the auction...to get more of his lineage here.

However, I wonder if that is too close-knit or just right? Comments?

Peg

P.S. I'll try to post photos later if I remember and get a chance - I'm just real busy on my webpage!


 
I've done Father/Daughter, Mother/Son, 1/2 Siblings, Cousins, Grandsire/Granddaughter, GrandDam/GrandSon... and a handful of littermatesBrother/Sister.

The Brother/Sister pairing I did purposefully to find - 1) Hidden color recessives, 2) To entice genetic flaws to show (Hydrocephalus, Malocclusion, etc.) - which it didn't (and I did that breeding twice to be absolutely sure).

Personally, I think you're on the right track with your plans to start your own line. :)

 
TinysMom wrote:


How "large" would you recommend for a herd for linebreeding?

Peg


It would depend on your goals as well as available stock. I believe a herd of 30 - 50 is a reasonable number to work with.

Pam
 
pamnock wrote:
TinysMom wrote:


How "large" would you recommend for a herd for linebreeding?

Peg


It would depend on your goals as well as available stock. I believe a herd of 30 - 50 is a reasonable number to work with.

Pam
WOW....I need to show this to Art so he can shoot me! :shock:

I was going to start by working with torts and sable points and possibly siamese sable. Of course - that leaves out the others I work with like otters, harlequins, chocolates, brokens, etc.

Now here is my question...should I start with one buck or two bucks? I know that sounds crazy...but I'm thinking if I used two bucks that had slightly different lines but still had the main lines I wanted...that I would be less likely to get problems....or would that not work?

I'm going to sit down and start going through my pedigrees more carefully to pick and choose who I want to bring into this particular "project".

Peg
 
TinysMom wrote:


Now here is my question...should I start with one buck or two bucks? I know that sounds crazy...but I'm thinking if I used two bucks that had slightly different lines but still had the main lines I wanted...that I would be less likely to get problems....or would that not work?

I'm going to sit down and start going through my pedigrees more carefully to pick and choose who I want to bring into this particular "project".

Peg

There are no clear-cut answers for line or inbreeding due to the possible variables.

In one method of line breeding animals can be traced back to one outstanding sire or dam that passes on it desirable traits consistently (prepotence). Using a grand champion rabbit thatnever passesdesirable winning traits to his offspring would be of no use in a line breeding program.

Another method of line-breeding involves using two unrelated rabbits with desirable characteristics. (See line-breeding chart in ARBA Guidebook or online)

This is a poultry site that has a good example of a line-breeding chart:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/ppp/ppp6.html

Insome cases, a mediocre rabbit may produce outstanding offspring, so would be useful in a line-breeding program.

Undesirable traits (narrow hindquarters for example) may be due to the cumulative effects of undesirable genes that can result even when outstanding rabbits are bred together. New stock would need to be brought into the line-breeding program to fix the new faults that may have cropped up.

Sometimes one needs to be patient with a line breeding program in an attempt to breed rabbits that will compliment each other and produce desirable offspring. An outstanding sire may produce less than satisfactory offspring in the first generation, but produce grand champions when the daughters are bred back to him.

A couple well knownexamples of line breeding that has also carried undesirable recessive genes. Once bred in, these genes can be difficult, if not impossible to eradicate from breeding lines. (It took approx. 20 years to breed the wooled gene out of most New Zealand lines).

The "Impressive"Quarter Horseline. Impressive was aworld champion who sired many additional world champs. Unfortunately, Impressive was also a carrier of a recessive and sometimes fatal disease, HYPP (Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis).

Max Factor in rabbits. This recessive defect that causeslimb deformities hasbeen traced back to an outstanding imported Netherland Dwarf sire named "Max".




Pam



 
pamnock wrote:
There are no clear-cut answers for line or inbreeding due to the possible variables.

In one method of line breeding animals can be traced back to one outstanding sire or dam that passes on it desirable traits consistently (prepotence). Using a grand champion rabbit thatnever passesdesirable winning traits to his offspring would be of no use in a line breeding program.

Another method of line-breeding involves using two unrelated rabbits with desirable characteristics. (See line-breeding chart in ARBA Guidebook or online)
But of course there would be no clear-cut answer for me.....ARG!

My concern is too much "inbreeding" and I'm wondering how often a new rabbit should be brought into the genetic lineup.In fact, I'm really wondering if perhaps I should be using two or three does and bucks that throw nice babies and interchange them a bit (I guess that isn't true linebreeding) so that I set the good traits and yet don't get too narrow in the genetic pool.

I know that when I breed Mona Kea and Marcus I get beautiful babies - for three litters now I think. They are the closest to ideal that I have come....and it is a good pairing. I also have her granddaughter and the granddaughter's mother (the father was Mona Kea's son) and that is another beautiful lionhead - the combination of that mother with the genes from Mona Kea's son...but of course - HE had another father than her current sons have.

(I feel like I should be making a chart of all the different relationships here).

Anyway, I will keep reading and learning and working on the breeding. I'm so pleased with my last few litters as I feel like I'm getting closer to what I wanted....even though there is NO such thing as the perfect lionhead!

Peg
 
TinysMom wrote:


My concern is too much "inbreeding" and I'm wondering how often a new rabbit should be brought into the genetic lineup. Peg


Some people breed 2 separate strains, and then cross the 2 strains. This form of hybrid breeding often produces outstanding offspring.

The time to add new stock is when you see faults emerging that need correcting, or notice decreased production, more illness, or shortened lifespan. If a recessive desease such as heart defects are passed on, sudden deaths may occur after approx. 2 years of linebreeding.

In my opinion, you've developed your own strain when the full pedigree is of your own breedings. At this point, you may want to add new stock, especially if you have a small herd.

We're down to about 50 Hollands, and the last time we added a new buck was approx. 4 years ago. We still have enough genetic diversity from our own strain to continue linebreeding for a while. The only genetic recessive that has cropped up is the wooled gene. Unfortunately, the outstanding $250 buck that we bought to improve our herd carried that gene :( The first generation of Hollands he produced were terrible. They were either huge or their ears stuck straight up (he has a slightly tight crown). 2nd generation and later generations produced many grandchampions. (We are no longer showing as much now). We have also recently gotten a tri of Hollands from Heather Washburn to start a separate strain and a buck from John Borsick from Poprawski lines that we may also introduce into the herd.

Part of the challenge is to hit on a preponent animal whose desirable traits will continue to show up in your herd for years to come.

Pam
 
pamnock wrote:
TinysMom wrote:


My concern is too much "inbreeding" and I'm wondering how often a new rabbit should be brought into the genetic lineup. Peg


Some people breed 2 separate strains, and then cross the 2 strains. This form of hybrid breeding often produces outstanding offspring.


Part of the challenge is to hit on a preponent animal whose desirable traits will continue to show up in your herd for years to come.

Pam
I think that is the way I feel best about it - to breed 2 separate strains.

Now here comes my question. When I look at Mona Kea - and then I look at her litters and her granddaughter (from a son I don't have) - I can see her in them....in GOOD ways. She has a wide face - a wide rear (which many times you don't get in a lionhead), good shoulders, etc. She is probably my "best" lionhead I have.

If I can see "her" in not only her children but her grandchildren - and 90% of the time go, "Oh...that's one from Mona"....in a good way...does that mean its a good choice?

She comes from some well-known lionheads that were known to keep their manes into adulthood: Cimmaron Bonita Bear, Cimmaron Bonnie Bear, Tuborg, Wetzel's Rafiki and Blackberry. The buck I've mated her with to create this line also has: Cimmaron Bonita Bear andCimmaron Binty Sue (I think she's from Bonnie Bear). I deliberately am mating the two of them because they share Bonita Bear and Bonnie Bear/Binty Sue....to get the manes that stay.

Now I'm wondering - for my 2nd line - should I try to get the same ancestors in the pedigree (I have some others that have these rabbits) - or should I try for other lionheads to widen the gene pool? The ones listed above were great-grandparents of both the buck and doe I'm using!

Thanks for your time!

Peg
 
The Mona Kea line would be an excellent start. You can breed together any of the descendants from that line that have Mona Kea in their pedigree.

Pam
 
I'm just starting to get my own line-breeding program going. I bred Sally to her father, Ben, who is not showable himself but has made some exellent kits, including Sally. From an earlier litter fathered by Ben, I have a junior buck that has even better head and ears than Ben, and fabulous bone structure. I will put him with a steel doe that has the same great head and ears, partly because Sam's (the junior) color is a little too light and I am hoping to get kits with the right heads and bone, and better color.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what they make.
 
I have a newzealand white doe and a brown and white buck and i have 13 babies so far, I need some advice online breeding like sons back to mother or daughter back to daddy. Any advice will be helpfull

Greg
 
I have no idea why this posting was removed from the thread by someone. Fortunately I save my work as I go along. If someone has a problem with this post, please let me know privately.

Inbreeding theory was one of my specialties. Pam has covered pretty much everything of serious interest except a couple things. First off, if a serious fault crops up as a result of inbreeding (linebreeding), the entire line needs to be culled. It's a difficult truth to face for many breeders, but the reality is that you won't know who else in that line may be carrying that defective gene. In this way, inbreeding is extremely useful to find those genes for culling, you just have to be ready and able to do that if necessary.

Also, if you're talking about straight, pure numbers, you can breed back to the *same* individual for roughly 6 generations. At that point, your inbreeding coefficient is going to be so high (greater than 75%) that you're going to see inbreeding depression.Three generations is usually the max as far as I'll go. Think it'd be difficult to use the same individual for 3 generations? Think again, a buck could be 2 years old when his 3rd generation came up for breeding. He could easily be bred to multiple generations, just watch out for that.Generally, I replace a common ancestor at least every 3rd generation or more. It really depends on what I want to accomplish at the time.

I inbreed fairly heavily. No inbreeding is any better or worse than another. Crossing full-sibs isn't any worse than crossing to a parent. You have the same chance of concentrating the same genes. Those who say that it's more variable amond sibs than parents forgets that we can *see* the genes we want to concentrate. If the sibs don't have what you're wanting to produce, don't cross them. I mate parent to offspring, grandparent to grand offspring, full-sibs, half-sibs,cousins, uncle-neice/aunt-nephew, and any other related mating you can think up. Always with a purpose and goal in mind.

I also want to note, it only takes a single generation to remove thein breeding coefficient and put it back to zero. Cross to anon-related individual and it will be gone. Some confuse this return to vigor with hybrid vigor, which is not the same.This form is simply removing all constraints caused by the excessive homozygosity of the line (the inbreeding depression).However, crossing that zero-coefficient individual back into the line and the offspring of that mating will once again have an inbreeding value, but it will be greatly reduced. This is why you need to occasionally add fresh genes into an inbred line. It keeps the depression at a more reasonable level.
 
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