tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Generally, I trust what Dana Krempels says as she is one of the top rabbit health people I know of. I am not sure though, about the immodium. I'll look into it more in a second.
Diarrhea? Suddenly sick bunny. (RIP)
- Thread starter DazyDaizee
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tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
On this page, they also mention it from a 1987 article
http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/questran.html
The article is here:
http://la.rsmjournals.com/cgi/reprint/21/4/314
And more from Dana Krempels
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2008/9/Bunny-Enterotoxemia-2.htm
Personally, I'd call the vet and ask if they know anything about giving imodium to rabbits before doing it. Since I've not heard of it until now, and I've heard a lot of stories about bunnies with diarrhea, I'm still not sold on the idea. Simethicone is a safer choice, I think.
I am so sorry about your guinea pig. It sounds like he had a wonderful life with you, all 5 years, and very good treatment. It's a testament to your good care that he lived as long as he did. Popcorn at the bridge, piggie.
http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/questran.html
The article is here:
http://la.rsmjournals.com/cgi/reprint/21/4/314
And more from Dana Krempels
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2008/9/Bunny-Enterotoxemia-2.htm
Personally, I'd call the vet and ask if they know anything about giving imodium to rabbits before doing it. Since I've not heard of it until now, and I've heard a lot of stories about bunnies with diarrhea, I'm still not sold on the idea. Simethicone is a safer choice, I think.
I am so sorry about your guinea pig. It sounds like he had a wonderful life with you, all 5 years, and very good treatment. It's a testament to your good care that he lived as long as he did. Popcorn at the bridge, piggie.
DazyDaizee
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the links.. once my internet is cooperating more I'm going to read through them.
I've given 3 doses of Simethicone and still no improvement. He's looking really uncomfortable. Passing soft stools regularly now. I'm trying to keep him clean, but he's stressing so much. I'm trying not to wash the area more than once a day, but toweling isn't helping and his skin is irritated. I tried to shave some of the fur away to make it easier to clean, but my clippers are terrible and I couldn't get much off.
Any advice on how to keep him cleaner?
Anything I can use to soothe the skin? (he is grooming, so I know he'll lick it off, but if there's something safe that can help before he gets it all off, that would be great)
Anything else I can be doing to help him?
I'm going to email my friend who's a vet, I'll ask about the imodium (maybe she can check VIN for me), the Marquis, and biosponge, but she doesn't routinely see exotics, just has an interest and a general broad knowledge. I don't know if I should wait a while longer to see if he'll make an improvement or if I should try to get him to the vet again. I am hesitant because of the cost and because I'm not sure there's actually anything else that WOULD be done that I'm not already doing..
I've given 3 doses of Simethicone and still no improvement. He's looking really uncomfortable. Passing soft stools regularly now. I'm trying to keep him clean, but he's stressing so much. I'm trying not to wash the area more than once a day, but toweling isn't helping and his skin is irritated. I tried to shave some of the fur away to make it easier to clean, but my clippers are terrible and I couldn't get much off.
Any advice on how to keep him cleaner?
Anything I can use to soothe the skin? (he is grooming, so I know he'll lick it off, but if there's something safe that can help before he gets it all off, that would be great)
Anything else I can be doing to help him?
I'm going to email my friend who's a vet, I'll ask about the imodium (maybe she can check VIN for me), the Marquis, and biosponge, but she doesn't routinely see exotics, just has an interest and a general broad knowledge. I don't know if I should wait a while longer to see if he'll make an improvement or if I should try to get him to the vet again. I am hesitant because of the cost and because I'm not sure there's actually anything else that WOULD be done that I'm not already doing..
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
You can use Preparation H, Udder Cream, or baby cornstarch to soothe the skin. I think it is good to have a vet you know and trust evaluate whether or not to give the immodium. I was about to say that Biosponge would be very difficult to get a hold of, but then I found this:
http://www.entirelypets.com/platbio15cc.html
Interesting, I would have thought it would be prescription only? It may be worthwhile...
As for keeping him clean, I really don't know how to help with that. I have heard of people using preemie diapers on bunnies, but I doubt Wally would tolerate that. My only butt-bath experience is from a bunny I pet sat who couldn't eat his cecals and they all mooshed up on his bum and I had to clean him off right after he passed his cecals. Luckily, I soon figured out that he only did that in the morning, so I would just wash him once a day, pat dry, add udder creme, and get lots of dirty looks from him. I have heard that clippers are supposed to be better for clipping rabbit hair than scissors but it's still really easy to get the skin...
http://www.entirelypets.com/platbio15cc.html
Interesting, I would have thought it would be prescription only? It may be worthwhile...
As for keeping him clean, I really don't know how to help with that. I have heard of people using preemie diapers on bunnies, but I doubt Wally would tolerate that. My only butt-bath experience is from a bunny I pet sat who couldn't eat his cecals and they all mooshed up on his bum and I had to clean him off right after he passed his cecals. Luckily, I soon figured out that he only did that in the morning, so I would just wash him once a day, pat dry, add udder creme, and get lots of dirty looks from him. I have heard that clippers are supposed to be better for clipping rabbit hair than scissors but it's still really easy to get the skin...
DazyDaizee
Well-Known Member
Oh good.. I ordered the biosponge. Waiting to hear from the vet about Imodium.
Preparation H is okay if he licks it off?
I did use clippers, definitely no scissors.. I'm actually a groomer apprentice and worked as a vet tech, so I'm pretty comfortable with the clippers. I know how thin and easily cut bunny skin is, so I'm very careful. Maybe I'll pick up some better clippers to keep at home, the ones I have here are just terrible..
Preparation H is okay if he licks it off?
I did use clippers, definitely no scissors.. I'm actually a groomer apprentice and worked as a vet tech, so I'm pretty comfortable with the clippers. I know how thin and easily cut bunny skin is, so I'm very careful. Maybe I'll pick up some better clippers to keep at home, the ones I have here are just terrible..
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
I looked into that a lot because people recommended Prep H for that bunny I was pet sitting. It contains a drug that's an antihistamine if taken orally, I think, and the amount is very low, so if he licked it off it would be ok. There was also a lot of anectdotal advice from breeders who've used it. I haven't used it on bunnies myself, but I think if you only put enough on to cover the area (not gobs etc) it would be fine.
SilverBirchRabbitry
Well-Known Member
I hope Wally pulls through! I have no advice, because I'm not all that great in this department.
But maybe you could try to take away his food except hay and give him some oats? I find it works with my buns and I give kits oats with their food when I wean them to prevent diareah!
I hope he pulls through though
But maybe you could try to take away his food except hay and give him some oats? I find it works with my buns and I give kits oats with their food when I wean them to prevent diareah!
I hope he pulls through though
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
I worry about oats in this situation because the carbs in them can actually get some of the bad bacteria in the intestines to be worse--especially clostiridium. I don't know exactly how they make diarrhea clear up, because I've heard of them doing that before, but on a medical level it doesn't make a lot of sense. :shrug:
DazyDaizee
Well-Known Member
For diet I'm sticking with the greens and hay, which is also what the exotic vet at the emergency hospital was giving him. He's had greens every day since I've had him, and that's what's most enticing to get him to eat, not to mention the diarrhea is dehydrating, and he needs all the fluids he can get. The hay for fiber, nutrition. I only offered him pellets starting yesterday, but he's not interested and I prefer to keep them limited and push hay more.
I will try the Preparation H tomorrow when I can get to the store again. It is a large area that's irritated, but I'll use it conservatively and just on the worse areas. I'll try and order some new clippers so I can get rid of most of the fur down there that's just soaking in all that nastiness..
I will try the Preparation H tomorrow when I can get to the store again. It is a large area that's irritated, but I'll use it conservatively and just on the worse areas. I'll try and order some new clippers so I can get rid of most of the fur down there that's just soaking in all that nastiness..
DazyDaizee
Well-Known Member
Okay. Vet says Imodium actually slows down gut motility and the idea is to keep the gut moving and get the bad bacteria out. Not to mention slowing the gut is hazardous in rabbits anyway. So we're not going to use that.
She thought the Biosponge is worth a try (though there's nothing on VIN about it in rabbits), and I've ordered it, so hopefully it will be delivered fast.. I opted for a faster shipment.
There's a lot of debate about Marquis on VIN.. apparently the general consensus is that there's no evidence that it works any better than Albon, yet there haven't been any major side effects. So I could try it if I want, but the Albon should be enough.
And lastly, she didn't think Coccidia would cause an acute onset of diarrhea in Wally or our guinea pig. She mentioned that it could be making Wally's issues worse, but probably didn't cause them.
So, we'll keep up with the current treatment and add the Biosponge once it arrives. I ordered new clippers to keep the fur shorter and easier to clean, and try Preparation H to soothe the irritated areas..
Hopefully we'll start to see more of an improvement soon.
Tried to force feed him tonight.. he just lets it drool out of his mouth.. He did eat a little apple on his own. I would have preferred it to be hay or greens, but he needs to eat SOMETHING...
She thought the Biosponge is worth a try (though there's nothing on VIN about it in rabbits), and I've ordered it, so hopefully it will be delivered fast.. I opted for a faster shipment.
There's a lot of debate about Marquis on VIN.. apparently the general consensus is that there's no evidence that it works any better than Albon, yet there haven't been any major side effects. So I could try it if I want, but the Albon should be enough.
And lastly, she didn't think Coccidia would cause an acute onset of diarrhea in Wally or our guinea pig. She mentioned that it could be making Wally's issues worse, but probably didn't cause them.
So, we'll keep up with the current treatment and add the Biosponge once it arrives. I ordered new clippers to keep the fur shorter and easier to clean, and try Preparation H to soothe the irritated areas..
Hopefully we'll start to see more of an improvement soon.
Tried to force feed him tonight.. he just lets it drool out of his mouth.. He did eat a little apple on his own. I would have preferred it to be hay or greens, but he needs to eat SOMETHING...
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Interesting about the Immodium. I also thought that coccidia could develop in just a day or two, but the vet sounds good!
Yeah, it's not good that he's not eating. This is one of those situations in which it might be good to use a bit of Nutri-Cal. It has B vitamins that stimulate the appetite. It's best if you can give them B vitamins via a shot called B comp, but that is prescription only and is an intramuscular shot, which is quite difficult. Nutri-cal is kind of greasy because it's a bit like Pet-Lax, but I have seen it stimulate appetite. Maybe give him a bit of that and leave him alone with a big pile of fresh hay for a while?
Yeah, it's not good that he's not eating. This is one of those situations in which it might be good to use a bit of Nutri-Cal. It has B vitamins that stimulate the appetite. It's best if you can give them B vitamins via a shot called B comp, but that is prescription only and is an intramuscular shot, which is quite difficult. Nutri-cal is kind of greasy because it's a bit like Pet-Lax, but I have seen it stimulate appetite. Maybe give him a bit of that and leave him alone with a big pile of fresh hay for a while?
DazyDaizee
Well-Known Member
I think I have some Nutrical, otherwise I'll pick some up and try that. He did go right for his lettuce this am, but still not eating much (if any) hay.
With the Coccidia it was more that most rabbits who carry it don't get sick from that alone, usually it's when the immune system is compromised from something else. Don't know what it was that set Wally off.
That vet did get a look at his molars and one side is worn more than the other, but no spurs or overgrowth. Do you think this would be uncomfortable for him chewing and have caused a problem eating?
With the Coccidia it was more that most rabbits who carry it don't get sick from that alone, usually it's when the immune system is compromised from something else. Don't know what it was that set Wally off.
That vet did get a look at his molars and one side is worn more than the other, but no spurs or overgrowth. Do you think this would be uncomfortable for him chewing and have caused a problem eating?
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
That's strange. Might his tooth roots on one side be hurting him morel, so he chews unevenly? That obviously wouldn't be a good thing, but it's possible. Also, might it be simply due to his tilt--the food falls down to one side because of gravity so the bottom teeth are more worn?
I understand what you're saying about Coccidia now. Makes sense.
I understand what you're saying about Coccidia now. Makes sense.
DazyDaizee
Well-Known Member
I'm thinking it probably has to do with his head tilt. I'll have to recheck which side it was.. But I wonder if it's excessive wear on that side and maybe it's painful.. or maybe he does have a problem tooth on that side, and that's the main side he uses to eat... or if they have become too uneven, maybe they don't meet right and he can't grind up food as well...
I'm just not sure what to do about it because I don't think he should be put under anesthesia until he's doing well again.. but if the teeth are the problem, it needs to be resolved...
I'm just not sure what to do about it because I don't think he should be put under anesthesia until he's doing well again.. but if the teeth are the problem, it needs to be resolved...
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's true. I don't know what the protocol is for putting an already ill bunny under anesthesia.
DazyDaizee
Well-Known Member
Okay.. another problem.
I just started rinsing off Wally's hind end like I have been doing at least once a day for almost a week and he started screaming and thrashing. I wrapped him in the towel, he continued to scream as I set him down on the floor on the towel. He just laid there on his side breathing really heavily, at first open-mouth breathing, then just very labored. This went on for a few minutes. He's pick his head up but just lay back down on his side breathing hard. Eventually the breathing slowed and he sat back up.. now he's eating again and seems okay..
How worried should I be? I've never seen such a dramatic reaction, even from him, over stress (especially when this isn't a new experience for him and I only had the water-lukewarm- running for about a minute, maybe less). I'm really concerned... It just doesn't seem normal to me...
I'm scared to give meds now, hoping he won't react the same way again...
I just started rinsing off Wally's hind end like I have been doing at least once a day for almost a week and he started screaming and thrashing. I wrapped him in the towel, he continued to scream as I set him down on the floor on the towel. He just laid there on his side breathing really heavily, at first open-mouth breathing, then just very labored. This went on for a few minutes. He's pick his head up but just lay back down on his side breathing hard. Eventually the breathing slowed and he sat back up.. now he's eating again and seems okay..
How worried should I be? I've never seen such a dramatic reaction, even from him, over stress (especially when this isn't a new experience for him and I only had the water-lukewarm- running for about a minute, maybe less). I'm really concerned... It just doesn't seem normal to me...
I'm scared to give meds now, hoping he won't react the same way again...
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Oh no! I'm so sorry that happened! I don't know what could have caused him to do that. Did you get a chance to look at his bum to see if it was really irritated or something? Might you have held him in the stomach area, which could have been painful?
I think he sounds ok now, but I would take him in to the vet for a progress update to see if he's got tons of pain in his gut or something. If he's eating, not doing the hard breathing, and seems otherwise ok it's probably not an emergency. It's just that rabbits give us so few signs of their discomfort that completely ignoring this doesn't sound right. If there's a chance to get him in to the vet tomorrow, that would be good. If it will cost the same to go to an emergency vet that's competent, I'd do it tonight.
Sorry it took me a while to answer.
I think he sounds ok now, but I would take him in to the vet for a progress update to see if he's got tons of pain in his gut or something. If he's eating, not doing the hard breathing, and seems otherwise ok it's probably not an emergency. It's just that rabbits give us so few signs of their discomfort that completely ignoring this doesn't sound right. If there's a chance to get him in to the vet tomorrow, that would be good. If it will cost the same to go to an emergency vet that's competent, I'd do it tonight.
Sorry it took me a while to answer.
DazyDaizee
Well-Known Member
I held him on his back, cradled, which is how he usually stays most calm.. so no pressure on his stomach. The skin is still red, but no open sores or really irritated areas.
I gave him his meds and he was unusually still for it. I gave a little Nutrical as well. I offered him some Kale a little while later and he went to eat it, but seemed like he couldn't chew. I was watching him.. he's been hopping funny, and I thought it was because of his back end being sensitive, but now I see at least one of his front legs sort of sliding backwards. He went for the Kale again on his own and couldn't seem to chew it and gave up quickly. The leg posturing reminds me of the foster bunny I had with E.C... His breathing has slowed, but does seem deeper/heavier than usual?
The emergency vet is supposed to be calling me tomorrow, so I plan to discuss it with her, but I kind of want him to see his regular vet.. I'm just worried about stressing him in any way, and any vet I can take him to is at least a half hour drive.
I gave him his meds and he was unusually still for it. I gave a little Nutrical as well. I offered him some Kale a little while later and he went to eat it, but seemed like he couldn't chew. I was watching him.. he's been hopping funny, and I thought it was because of his back end being sensitive, but now I see at least one of his front legs sort of sliding backwards. He went for the Kale again on his own and couldn't seem to chew it and gave up quickly. The leg posturing reminds me of the foster bunny I had with E.C... His breathing has slowed, but does seem deeper/heavier than usual?
The emergency vet is supposed to be calling me tomorrow, so I plan to discuss it with her, but I kind of want him to see his regular vet.. I'm just worried about stressing him in any way, and any vet I can take him to is at least a half hour drive.
DazyDaizee
Well-Known Member
Here's a picture of the front foot way back. You can't really see the back feet in the picture.. this is the position he's been sitting in. When he walks, the front legs slide out to the side and he seems to have difficulty placing them.
I got a video of another strange thing he's doing now.. sort of popping up while he's sitting still.. hard to describe, I don't know if it's discomfort or neurological.. once it uploads I'll post it..
I got a video of another strange thing he's doing now.. sort of popping up while he's sitting still.. hard to describe, I don't know if it's discomfort or neurological.. once it uploads I'll post it..
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Oh that is strange. Do you think he's perhaps scanning (looking side to side across the room with jerking movements, a sign of neurological issues)? Perhaps it was a pain in his spine or leg, or his movement is really deteriorating quickly... I think the vet will have the best answers for you. I really can't think of anything other than brain or spinal trauma to cause that leg issue on both sides, unless both legs were hurt. I guess it's possible that the onset of sudden illness is from EC. :dunno: ray:
ray:
