debate between breeders and rescuers for proper diet.

[Flash Gordon]

ok i know this is a touchy subject around here and im not trying to egg it on ..but do you guys think that maybe ur both right when it comes to proper diet...

the breeders say pellet only diet is fine and theyve had great results from it..

the rescuers say 80% of buns diet should be hay and the rest greens with a smidge of pellets...

do u think that maybe since breeders cull and get rid of all their buns with any kinda genetic or flaw that most of the buns that they keep for any amount of time are the perfect specimen of rabbit....no teeth issues no weak immune systems...thats all been culled out hasnt it.....all pellet diet is fine for good bred rabbits....

but the rescuers who seem to get the buns that rabbitries dont keep ,the so called rejects(only word i could think of sorry)...then rescuers have to alter the diet more for genetic health issues....gotta tweak the diet for those fast growing teeth...so more hay...
.....just a thought.

 

[Happi Bun]

I absolutely believe rabbits need to have hay available (if a rabbit refuses hay then veggies or fresh grass are used as a replacement), regardless of pet or breeder. This is known by the anatomy of the rabbit and how its digestive track works. So I do not believe in all pellet diets. To me it is not a matter of opinion. Hay is essential. Veggies are something I don't believe is absolutely necessary when the right amount of hay and a bit of pellets is given, since both of those should provide all the nutrition needed.

I think it's important to question just how successful a pellet only diet (so no hay or anything of that nature) truly is. The 'stock' in rabbitries is constantly moving and changing. So how exactly do they know this kind of diet is all that successful? With pet homes a rabbit may stay with one person its whole life, up until it dies. For example I know someone that has had two of their rabbits live to 12 and currently one that is 14 years old.

JMHO :bunny24

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Flash Gordon wrote:

but the rescuers who seem to get the buns that rabbitries dont keep ,the so called rejects(only word i could think of sorry)...then rescuers have to alter the diet more for genetic health issues....gotta tweak the diet for those fast growing teeth...so more hay...

Rescuers don't tend to get the rabbits that rabbitries don't keep. Without going into further detail, I can guarantee you that 90% of rabbits from reputable breeders stay within the breeding circle or are placed in carefully selected pet homes. Most of what rescuers are seeing are rabbits from other outlets.

But with that being said, I definitely think that diets vary depending on the purpose of the animal. You're correct in saying that. But I think most breeders even would agree that an all-pellet diet is not ideal.

 

[Flash Gordon]

i agree rabbitries do deal with alot of bunnies but mostly short term...not all of u..so im not poking a stick at u guys.....

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Happi Bun wrote:

The 'stock' in rabbitries is constantly moving and changing. So how exactly do they know this kind of diet is all that successful?

Rabbits are passed around between breeders, but don't just disappear from everyone. I am able to keep up on a majority of the rabbits I've sold and evaluate how well their diet works for them. Much of an animal's health is determined by its ability to reproduce, so that in itself is an indicator of good health- if the herd is productive.

Also, raising rabbits from babies all the way to adults gives us a broad idea of the correct diet for different age groups. I have rabbits in my rabbitry right now from age 4 weeks to 8 years.

 

[Flash Gordon]

 

[Myia09]

Happi Bun wrote:

I absolutely believe rabbits need to have hay available (if a rabbit refuses hay then veggies or fresh grass are used as a replacement), regardless of pet or breeder. This is known by the anatomy of the rabbit and how its digestive track works. So I do not believe in all pellet diets. To me it is not a matter of opinion. Hay is essential. Veggies are something I don't believe is absolutely necessary when the right amount of hay and a bit of pellets is given, since both of those should provide all the nutrition needed.

I think it's important to question just how successful a pellet only diet (so no hay or anything of that nature) truly is. The 'stock' in rabbitries is constantly moving and changing. So how exactly do they know this kind of diet is all that successful? With pet homes a rabbit may stay with one person its whole life, up until it dies. For example I know someone that has had two of their rabbits live to 12 and currently one that is 14 years old.

JMHO :bunny24

Agreed. This can be touchy,because I am so anti-pellet only..I think anyone who thinks pellet only has some serious research issues they need to go do.

Not only does hay provide most of thier nutrition, but the hay also helps trim teeth due to chewing.

 

[TinysMom]

Flash Gordon wrote:

i agree rabbitries do deal with alot of bunnies but mostly short term...not all of u..so im not poking a stick at u guys.....

I actually have kept rabbits in my rabbitry for 4-5 years (thats how long I've been breeding) and will be keeping them longer.

As someone else said - in the rabbitry world - you oftentimes keep up with where many of your rabbits are and how they're doing.

 

[Flash Gordon]

i agree myia trust me i give unlimited hay and they get veggies and some pellets... but dont certain buns have teeth issues .isnt that a genetic thing..if they "get rid" of the genetically teeth flaws bun //maybe they end up with the bun that actually goes thru his whole life without hay and his teeth are fine.......or do i need to just shut up ...? this is really over my head but i thought shoot u breeders can get the perfect exterior on a bun why not get the inside perfect too......

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Flash Gordon wrote:

i agree myia trust me i give unlimited hay and they get veggies and some pellets... but dont certain buns have teeth issues .isnt that a genetic thing..if they "get rid" of the genetically teeth flaws bun //maybe they end up with the bun that actually goes thru his whole life without hay and his teeth are fine.......or do i need to just shut up ...? this is really over my head but i thought shoot u breeders can get the perfect exterior on a bun why not get the inside perfect too......

I didn't want to go into more detail than I already did, but I'm not sure you caught my hints. lol Usually with bigger problems like misaligned teeth, the rabbits are euthanized. Not always, some breeders sell them as pets to specifically chosen, good pet homes. But rabbits with these problems are few and far between because most teeth problems have been long bred out.

By choosing good stock, genetically, I've been breeding for around 10 years and have not encountered any cases of misaligned teeth.

Most health problems like this arise because there are irresponsible pet owners who let their rabbits breed, or even what we call "Backyard Breeders", people who intentionally breed but overproduce and do not work towards any health standards. These people are working with little knowledge of genetic issues and may be mass producing amounts of rabbits with genetic problems.

You're right that many of those animals probably do need special diets, or may do better with particular dietary supplements. I'm just trying to point out that most breeders are working with the same quality of animals that they are selling as well. So many pet rabbits should be just as "perfect".

Since most breeds have been more developed at this point in time, most of what I cull for in my herd are type faults, like longer ears. Those aren't generally things that affect the health of the rabbit, just traits that aren't ideal on the show table.

But in the end, that's what reputable breeders are trying to do. Breed healthier, more sound rabbits so that their rabbits can live a happy, healthy life. I guess it's just a roundabout way of saying that as far as my herd goes at least, the pet quality rabbits are no less healthy than my own show quality rabbits. I hope that explained a little better this time.

 

[Mrs. PBJ]

I can say this in my situation I feed pellets and hay a set amount of pellets and unlimited hay. Why honestly money issues and Storm issues he has a very hard time with vegys.

*I can say that if I had the money they would be getting more vegys a couple times a week.

 

[Yield]

I was going to start a thread like this, cause someone on one of my topics said:
"Veggies cause a lot of un needed GI Intestional problems" or something like that.

And I was thinking "That is so crap!"

And "I would never buy from a breeder if the buns hadn't been introduced to veggies once they were old enough!"

And such.

I think bun-buns NEED veggies. Some veggies have some protein that helps with their coat as well.

Also, how would you like it if all you got was the same old boring pellets EVERY DAY!?

 

[kirbyultra]

Yield wrote:

I was going to start a thread like this, cause someone on one of my topics said:
"Veggies cause a lot of un needed GI Intestional problems" or something like that.

And I was thinking "That is so crap!"

And "I would never buy from a breeder if the buns hadn't been introduced to veggies once they were old enough!"

And such.

I think bun-buns NEED veggies. Some veggies have some protein that helps with their coat as well.

Also, how would you like it if all you got was the same old boring pellets EVERY DAY!?

This thread is about a discussion, so absolutes don't seem to be fair (and this isn't just in response to Yield's post). We're not attempting to say "this is what all pet rabbits should be fed and anything else would be abuse". Not at all. This is about opening a conversation to see what pet owners feed and what breeders feed and reasons why, perhaps some pros and cons of each. If we have a better understanding of the breeder's world, we might learn something

 

[fuzz16]

i have had pet rabbits for 2 years, been on this forum for the same amount also. my flemish will not touch veggies unless very desperate. they get unlimited hay and pellets according to thier size and what keeps them healthy and fit.

rabbits have lived a long time as pets with no veggies and its a newer thing within maybe the last ten years of feeding them veggies. if you can afford it great, theres pros to it and its a nice treat. but so many rabbits live off simply pellets and hay and it does fine for them and they are healthy. many breeders with a lot of rabbits would not have the money to buy greens. the rabbits in pet stores that are commerically bred prob dont even get hay, btw.

 

[Yield]

kirbyultra wrote:

Yield wrote:

I was going to start a thread like this, cause someone on one of my topics said:
"Veggies cause a lot of un needed GI Intestional problems" or something like that.

And I was thinking "That is so crap!"

And "I would never buy from a breeder if the buns hadn't been introduced to veggies once they were old enough!"

And such.

I think bun-buns NEED veggies. Some veggies have some protein that helps with their coat as well.

Also, how would you like it if all you got was the same old boring pellets EVERY DAY!?

This thread is about a discussion, so absolutes don't seem to be fair (and this isn't just in response to Yield's post). We're not attempting to say "this is what all pet rabbits should be fed and anything else would be abuse". Not at all. This is about opening a conversation to see what pet owners feed and what breeders feed and reasons why, perhaps some pros and cons of each. If we have a better understanding of the breeder's world, we might learn something

I wasn't saying anything absolute. I was just saying my opinion. I though that was what discussions were... I never said anything about abuse either. :/

 

[tamsin]

Neutered pet rabbits and breeding rabbits do need different diets, but then there is variation in the diets needed by pet rabbits too.

I didn't realise that in the US breeders advocated pellet only diets. Certainly in the UK breeders would supply hay. I can't think of a reason not to supply hay, it's cheaper than pellets, it's better for the digestion, it provides enrichment...

A breeding rabbit is likely to require more pellets but to exclude hay completely IMO is inappropriate.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Yield wrote:

I was going to start a thread like this, cause someone on one of my topics said:
"Veggies cause a lot of un needed GI Intestional problems" or something like that.

And I was thinking "That is so crap!"

I think bun-buns NEED veggies. Some veggies have some protein that helps with their coat as well.

Also, how would you like it if all you got was the same old boring pellets EVERY DAY!?

That first quote isn't "crap". A lot of domestic rabbits do struggle with digestive upsets when they are fed heavy green or veggie diets. This doesn't mean that veggies can't be a useful part of the diet to some rabbits, but I don't feel that they are necessary and in many cases, are not ideal because they can cause loose stools and gas if not fed correctly and knowledgably. In some cases, it doesn't matter what you do, the rabbit just doesn't digest them properly.

To back track a little, the reason I don't feel they are necessary is because pellets or diet supplements such as oats, sunflower seeds, calf manna, etc. that many breeders use also include proteins that help with coat condition. Pellets pull nutritional elements from varied plant matter to include a diet that is balanced in vitamins and nutrients. At one time, I'm sure pellets were not an ideal diet. But at this point in time, rabbit pellets have been intensively researched and formulated to be an all-inclusive rabbit diet.

The reason I supplement hay, then, is because my pellets don't include as much fiber as I feel my rabbits should have. So the hay is a supplement in a sense, because it adds to their pellets. I also occasionally add oats (usually in the winter) when the rabbits' bodies are preparing themselves for cold weather.

There are many different ways to formulate a rabbit diet. Veggies can certainly be included. But I don't feel that anything is necessary- only the "ingredients" are necessary, so to say. As long as the rabbit is recieving proper amounts of all it's necessary nutrients, it is a fine diet.

I don't think anyone, even breeders, would say that an all-pellet diet is ideal. Nor is an all-veggie diet. Variety is key.

 

[Happi Bun]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

That first quote isn't "crap". A lot of domestic rabbits do struggle with digestive upsets when they are fed heavy green or veggie diets.

A lot of domestic rabbits do just fine with a variety of veggies added to their diet as well.


OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

I don't think anyone, even breeders, would say that an all-pellet diet is ideal. Nor is an all-veggie diet. Variety is key.

Agreed!

 

[tamsin]

I think you have to be careful with the promises on packaging. Nutritionally complete doesn't necessarily mean that it contains everything required for digestion. Indigestible fibre does not provide any nutrition for rabbits (or humans) but exclude it from a nutritionally complete diet and your digestive system soon starts protesting! Of course for rabbits there is also the issue of teeth wear. It means that manufacturers can label a product nutritionally complete when on it's own it doesn't actually meet all the requirements.

I do think food manufacturers are beginning to label more appropriately. Certainly the foods aimed at pets are better labelled than they used to be explaining that hay is a necessary addition. Quite a few companies have extended into providing hays and forages to meet this need (and make more cash).

I agree that fresh veggies are not strictly necessary though they do have benefit. I think hay or grass is a necessity though.

 

[CiaraPatricia]

I'm a breeder but only have a few rabbits. I feed them lots of greens, fresh grass, hay, veggies and pellets too. I don't give them enough greens really, but I give them as much as I can afford really, more than most pet owners I'd say.

I think fresh food is great for rabbits. But I can understand why breeders with large numbers of rabbits would only feed pellets. Then again, lots of people with pet rabbits (in Ireland anyway) don't even know they need veggies.

And a lot of people would just feed their dogs and cats on dog or cat food, and not give them raw meat or other fresh foods (my dogs love veggies ) but that surely is as important as giving rabbits fresh food? Well maybe not quite (because of rabbits' teeth and GI issues) but of a similar importance . . .