Cecotrope smearing..everywhere

[Krulala]

Hello!

I am a new mother of a human baby (5 months old now), have 2 kitties, one of which has some digestive problems and started pooping outside of the litter box about 1.5 months ago, and have 2 house bunnies, one of which has been smearing her cecotropes for quite some time on hard surfaces. The ceotrope smearing used to only be occasional, but now it is every day. Now my life basically revolves around cleaning poo whether it be baby poo leaking out of diapers, kitty diarrhea on the carpet and bed or ceotropes smeared across our tile and hardwood floors.

I'd love some help with the bunny poo issue (kitty is under care of vet, and we are hopeful will soon go back to using the litter box).

We have two 2-yr-old rabbits, Coco and Rufus. Both are litter box trained and always pee inside the litter box. They are also really good at keeping their fecal pellets in the litter box, although there are always a couple that escape the box when the rabbits jump out. We do find occasional fecal pellets in the odd corner, but never more than one or 2 outside their litter box areas.

They both eat the same diet of ~ 1/2 cup fresh veggies in the morning with 1/2 cup of pellets given out at 4 different times during the day. We do not separate the rabbits for feeding and hope that they each get an equal share of the above amounts. Unfortunately, Coco continuously eats until everything is gone, while Rufus only eats until he is full. So, I'm sure Coco gets more than half of everything.

Coco is definitely overweight, but she has been steadily loosing weight since her peak about a year ago. We have been measuring and limiting their food diligently to get her back to a healthy weight. About a month ago (last vet visit) she weighed 7 lbs, compared to Rufus who is ~4.5lbs. We believe Rufus eats much more hay than Coco, as we see him in his litter box munching away much more often than Coco.

We make sure they never run out of Timothy hay or water and keep both in several locations through the house, always near a litter box.

Soon after Coco was spayed, she gained weight very quickly and occasionally would smear her cecotropes across the linoleum in our kitchen or sometimes the bathroom.

We thought this was due to a combination of her weight issue and furriness. She is very furry, and we have to keep her "bloomers" trimmed short or the sticky cecotropes will accumulate and eventually form a matted mess. Since she is overweight, we believe she has a hard time reaching her bum to clean them from her fur. I've actually seen her smear her rear-end on the floor, then turn around and lick the floor to eat the smeared mess.

I was hoping that once she got back to a healthier weight and if we kept her bloomers trimmed, we could minimize these messy smears. Unfortunately, they have gotten much, much worse despite the lose of weight and diligence at trimming her rear end.

Every day she smears on our hardwood floors, the tiled foyer, the linoleum in the laundry room, or the tile in the kitchen. At least she keeps it off the carpet, I guess. There is now so much poop smeared everyday, that I have a hard time believing she consumes any of it. When the problem started, it was maybe once a week, in a 1-2 sqft area. Now, it literally is every day and can be over a 6'x6' area. I wonder if she just started a habit and now prefers to get rid of it that way.

I am sure that she still produces fecal pellets as well, as I've seen her produce piles in the litterbox. I often find non-smeared cecotropes from her in the same vincinity, which are mostly spherical and solid but soft (basically the consistency that I would expect), so I'm fairly sure it isn't diarrhea. Her behavior hasn't changed in any other way. We have had the vet check her out on numerous occasions (she also has semi-chronic ear infections, which now seem under control with frequent cleaning) and been given a clean bill of health.

Has anyone else experienced this issue or have any ideas on how to remedy the issue? Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

We have two out of our 12 that get almost no veggies or else they get the same problem. Need to cut down on pellets for her and get her to eat more hay too. That will help bring down her weight--that can also be a factor as most rabbits will eat them as they are secreted, but an obese rabbit can't reach as easily. We do have one that never eats them so they get vacuumed.

 

[Krulala]

Yeah, we've been decreasing both the veges and the pellets over the past few months, but haven't seen any change. Since Rufus is not at all over weight, I am worried about reducing them any more. We are already underfeeding using their weight as a guide for the pellets. (1/4 c./5 lb)

How much more would be safe to reduce to?

Maybe we'll try to eliminate veggies all together for a couple of weeks to see if that helps. I can try to sneak in some to Rufus when he's alone.

Coco is now at a weight that I would think cleaning herself would be much easier. I see her reaching around to lick her back heel from time to time. I'm wondering if she just got out of the habit of cleaning her bum, since it has been so long since she could reach.

 

[gmas rabbit]

There are several articles on this on the internet. But basically the above. Cut down on pellets and increase hay. The cecum is a delicately balanced ecosystem. If the intestine is moving too slowly or if the rabbit is getting a diet too rich in digestible carbohydrates and too low in crude fiber, the complex population of bacteria in the cecum become unbalanced. This condition is known as CECAL DYSBIOSIS. Basically it means that the beneficial bacteria are outcompeted and outnumbered by less desirable inhabitants such as yeast or even harmful bacteria. The cecotropes are often mushy, pasty or even liquid. The are often foul smelling and stick to the bunny's back end. They need a diet of mostly grass and herbs. Treats such as oatmeal, crackers, bread and fuits can cause this problem, also commercial pellets. Check your pellets, maybe they are too high in protein, fat and too low in fiber. Oxbow is a good brand. Being a mommy is hard enough, without extensive poop cleaning. Good luck.

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Gus had this problem when we first got him, even though he was underweight. He was being fed a mix of high protein alfalfa pellets and dried seeds and Manna Pro. WAAAYYY too high in carbs for him! We switched him to a timothy pellet andstarted feeding him unlimited hay. We also gave himchildren's chewable acidophilus (because we couldn't findBeneBac or any other probiotic made for animals). In a few weeks, he stopped leaving mushy cecals everywhere.

One thing I noticed in your post: You say you're giving two rabbits (one 7 lbs, one 4.5 lbs) 1/2 C of pellets 4 times a day? That's a LOT of pellets! Gus (7.5 lbs) gets 1/4 C once a day! I'd recommend cutting them back to about 1/4-1/3 C pellets twice a day, especially because you're offering unlimited hay. Also, you may have to consider feeding them in separate bowls or even at separate times. It sounds like Coco is filling up on the pellets and not eating her hay!

Hope that helps!

Rue

 

[Krulala]

Thanks again for the help

My feeding amounts were worded a little funny above, but we do not give out 1/2 c. 4 times a day. We divide 1/2 c. by 4 for 4 separate feedings; so we feed 1/8 c. at each of the 4 feedings. That's the amount that is recommended for 10 lbs of rabbit, and we have ~11.5 between the two.

We do so many separate feedings because if we put 1/2 c. out at once, Coco would probably eat it all at one sitting, or at least most of it. We also have a cat that does the same thing with her food, so all our critters get fed 4 times a day ><.

The pellets we use are Zupreem "Nature's Promise" made from Timothy Hay. We tried a few different brands in the beginning because all of Coco's stools when we 1st got her were small, liquidy, and black. When we switched to Zupreem, she almost immediately had normal pellets. The nutritional information on the back says it has 14% protein, 1% fat, 28% fiber.

The hay we give is Oxbow Timothy Hay; it is in unlimited supply at several locations throughout the house. The only other food they get is a 1" piece of banana right before bedtime, and occasional a couple of raisins (we play a game with them called "raisin hunting").

So, if you still think I should reduce the pellets, by how much should I reduce?

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Ah! Okay, totally misread that! I'd say you're feeding them the right amount.

I'd still consider giving Coco her pellets in a separate dish, becauseif she's filling up on pellets, she's not going toeat enough hay.

I'd also recommendgetting some probiotics for her (not yoghurt). Since she's on a good diet, it's probably, asgmas said, an inbalance of thebacteria in her gut.

Have you spoke to your vet about it? What did he/she say?

Hope that helps!

Rue

 

[Krulala]

I'll definitely look into the pro-biotics. Anyone like any particular brand?

We'll have to fence off an area to keep Coco separated from Rufus for feedings. When we tried separate dishes, she just eats from where ever Rufus goes. If he switches dishes, so does she. She constantly steals treats from him if we don't guard him to let him finish eating them, too.

We've discussed it with a couple of different vets. They basically had the same general information: reduce veges/pellets, make sure they have enough hay, and make sure the food is timothy hay based. They have given her thorough exams and not found anything to cause alarm.

The last time we took her to the vet, she finally had a good weight. Although she is still borderline and can stand to loose a bit more, we didn't think she should have any problem reaching anymore.

Because of the vet's advice, we have severely cut back on fresh veges and cut back on pellets a bit. So, I was *hoping* for improvement, but it definitely only gotten worse

I'll try the pro-biotics 1st. If that doesn't help, we'll try separating them for feedings. Separation will be a hassle, but no more so than cleaning poop :/

 

[Pipp]

They'll hate me for this, but no more banana. Or raisins. Those are two of the most high-sugar fruits.

Try a bit of apple instead.

And I'd increase veggies, not decrease them, but experiment with that and also to see if she has sensitivities. Introduce them one at a time.

Have you tried canned pumpkin?

What color is she? If she's a spotted rabbit, may be at least in part genetics.

Does she have a lot of jumping opportunities? Having shelving in her area, multi-level play areas (with step stools, boxes, etc) is better exercise than wide areas for straight hopping. I build four-story bunny 'forts' from cardboard boxes and put pellets on top. (Think Stairmaster).


sas :bunnydance:

 

[Krulala]

TAKE AWAY MY BANANAS! HOW DARE YOU...oops, sorry, I don't know how Coco got a hold of the keyboard so quickly. She is an excellent typist!

*sigh* Yeah, I've thought about the bananas for a while. We kinda have a nightly ritual around them. Every night before bedtime we bring up 2 one inch pieces on a plate into our master bedroom. In the beginning, they would smell the bananas and follow us up, circling our feet along the way. Now, as soon as they get drift that we are going to bed, they race upstairs to wait for us. And if we are running late, they come down, and nudge our feet to let us know it's time for bed. As soon as we get to "their corner" of the bedroom, they dance around and coco starts "oinking". It seems to be her favorite part of the day. She never "oinks" for anything else, and never seems as excited as she is that moment. When we substitute for an apple or something else, she sits for a moment before eating it and looks quite dejected.

Luckily, Rufus is always fine with substitutions. His life does not revolve around food like Coco's seems to.

And the raisins...a couple of times a week we hide a few in some crumpled paper somewhere in the house and let them find them. The sound of us shaking the raisin box cues the beginning of the hunt. I'm sure we can get them used to finding another treat. What do you suggest that is aromatic and could survive a day or so before being found (preferably not juicy).

I guess I'm resistant to those changes because they surround some of our bunnies favorite activities, and their routine has already been turned upside down with the new baby. I feel bad making more changes that would cause any increase in stress, like separating them during feedings. So, I was trying everything else 1st

Regarding the recommendation to increase the veggies, the main vet that we use is a big advocate of feeding large amounts of varied veggies (after introducing them one at a time), instead of the primary nutrition coming from pellets. So, that's the diet they were on until about 3 or 4 months ago. They would have a big "mixed salad" in the morning and then get another in the evening. The veggies that we feed are from the list on House Rabbit Society.

When they were on that diet, we did try one veggie at a time to see if anything in particular would make it worse, but didn't notice a difference with any of them.

We had to see a different "emergency" vet over a weekend when Coco looked like she was getting conjunctivitis. That vet recommended reduced veggies, and then most of the material I've read online seemed to recommend the same thing. So, I thought we'd give it a shot. We've been reducing the veggies for a while, and I guess we'll totally take her off them for a couple of weeks just to see how that extreme diet works, and play around with the pro-biotic. If there's no change, we'll definitely bring back the veggies.

Canned pumpkin, no, we haven't tried that, but I love to cook with it, so we'll definitely try it out.

Breed: I know very little about breeds. I only know that she is a lop. Here is a picture of her during molting. I know it doesn't look like it, but we had just brushed her the day before. She's probably lost half a pound since the photo.

Exercise: She has free roam of the house. We have a ~2400sqft split level home with 4 sets of stairs. She jumps up on window sills (like the photo above), up on the couch, and goes up and down stairs all day long. Just about every room she likes is on a different level, so there is always half a flight of stairs to traverse.

I hadn't thought of hiding treats anywhere other than the floor, though. Maybe we'll try the next hunting session with some elevated hiding spots.

Thanks again everyone for all the great advice!

 

[isabelly]

Good thread.



I was looking for more info because Sir Callebutt had an incident of diarhea but was otherwise normal.

He also leaves cecal smears all over. However, when I left on a two week vacation and my parents were looking after him, he seemed to have a lot less as there were none of the usual smears when I came home (I'm sure my parents cleaned some but he has hidden spots that were still clean). I think he only got veggies once or twice a week, exactly 1/4 cup of pellets once a day, all the hay he could eat, but less free roaming time.

I think it really is a diet problem. I'll have to use my willpower and give him a stricter diet to encourage hay consumption. He's just so darn cute. :bunny18

I'm also worried about restricting too much on pellets. Are there nutrients he won't get from veggies or hay alone? How little is too little for his daily pellet portion? Is it possible for him to be under-weight if he has free access to hay?

:threadhijacked:

 

[Krulala]

Yah! I'm glad someone else found this thread useful!

It's been a few months, and quite a roller coster, but I do think we have figured out how to greatly minimize Coco's issue. The short story is that minimal veggies/fruit did the trick.

Unfortunately, shortly after my post, we found out our kitty that had the diarrhea was actually very sick with intestinal cancer. Because that particular kitty and the rabbits were quite close, I did not change anything in the rabbit's diet for a while, as the stress was an unknown variable. We had to put the kitty down in mid-November.

I can say that added stress made Coco leave cecotropes in places she otherwise wouldn't and in general made the messiness much worse. It was all over the house shortly after Jasmine passed. I would see her run around and literally spray the cecotropes behind her, especially in high traffic areas and the stairs.

About a week after we put Jasmine down, I came home to the worst mess in out bunny history. I know rabbits poop a lot, but I had no idea she could make such a mess all over the house in just a few hours. I soon found out that I had accidentally locked her bonded buddy, Rufus, in the laundry room. I'm sure losing Jasmine, and then missing poor Rufus stressed Coco out a lot.

Anyway, about a month after our kitty passed, and the rabbits seemed to be back to a normal routine, I started playing around with their diet again. We slowly took away veggies from their diet and only gave sweet treats once per day (1 in of banana per rabbit at bedtime).

After taking out all of the veggies, we had 0 cecotropes for about 2 weeks. And then suddenly, they came back...with a vengeance. After a few days I found out that Coco and Rufus had broken into my husband's giant bag of sugar he uses for canning. So, Coco had been helping herself to copious amounts of sugar whenever she pleased.

After I made that room off limits (my husband still hasn't cleaned up the sugar mess), we got back to 0 cecotropes.

Because I would rather feed them more fresh veggiess than less, we tried re-introducing them into the diet. Unfortunately, a very small amount triggers a mess for Coco. Also, pretty much any more sweets than the 1" of banana causes problems as well.

Rufus can pretty much tolerate any amount of veggies or fruit without having any issues, so we do sneak them to him as often as possible.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[missyscove]

I'm sorry to hear about your kitty, but glad you managed to find a diet that works for you and your buns! I have to say reading this really impressed me; the effort you clearly put into making your pets happy, even with a new baby, makes me want to come live in your house!