Bonding Questions!

[Yield]

So I've started bonding Solara and Sabriel.

Two days have gone by.

Specific questions in bold!

Other comments appreciated

I wanna get as many questions in one post as I can, and I hope to get a lot of answers Especially before the next bonding session tomorrow....

First session was 20 minutes.

(we have been running the vaccuum cleaner outside of the door of the bathroom (it doesn't appear to bother them as much any more)

We've been placing them in the bathtub.

Second was 35 minutes. It was going THAT well.

(I think Solara has a crush on Sabriel )

There was a lot of humping in the first session, in which Solara grunted after a couple seconds of said humping.

Did she grunt to say "Stoppit, I'm done with you doing this"?

Sabriel was also pulling Solara's fur out before the humping.

(She sits there if she's humped, and looks traumatized)

I feel like he's just grooming her because she is molting currently. (or so it seems. she's got the lines in her fur that agoutis get when they molt. He seems to be molting as well... anyways her fur comes out easily to him it appears. She doesn't seemed pained by it and it doesn't seem to hurt her..)

Was the pulling out of Solara's fur for grooming or to prep her for humping?

Should I prevent him from pulling her fur out?

How soon should I stop Sabriel from humping?

I can tell when he is about to hump, and I usually stop him before he can, because Solara gets really mad when he does it for too long, and it's hard to get him off when Solara gets angry. I know some people let their buns hump each other as long as it doesnt get out of hand, but Sabriel seems to not know when to stop.

Also, when Sabriel would come around, Solara would put her head down and Sabriel would lick her head.

She'd let out a squeak.

Is this a good or bad squeak?

What exactly in your guys' opinions does it mean?

When Sabriel would lick Solara or push his face to hers, he would pull away eventually, and Solara would still be in that same position, her eyes half-lidded, and just breathing calmly.

Does this mean she liked it and is content?

Sabriel also seems to like Solara's butt... he's tried on more than one occassion to get to it.

Why do you thing he has a fascination with her butt?

Solara seems to like Sabriel's ears a lot as well.

Is she just cleaning his ears, or do you think there is a deeper meaning to it?

Annndddd according to what I have already said, and the pictures I am about to show you, how well do YOU think the bonding sessions are going? I feel like they skipped the indifference stage.. how long should I keep them in the bathtub? When should we move them somewhere else? And where?

(she's licking him.. it looks like she's sitting on him though XD)

(cuddles!)

(lying close)

(Sabriel grooming Solara)

(Solara grooming Sabriel)

(this is from the first bonding session)



I know you are supposed to end things on a good note... and we do each time. But it makes me feel so bad. They love being by each other.

What is the max time they should be together at this stage?

I feel like I can relate to Solara a whole lot. She is more... abrasive, I guess the word would be independently, but when a relationship shows up, she's more submissive. I'm totally the same way XD

 

[kirbyultra]

I think that they definitely like each other. They are a bit beyond tolerating each other since they are grooming. Humping is merely a sign of dominance. No bun likes to be humped, but if the one being humped is not reacting negatively to it, then I would let it play out for now. It's still very early in the bonding so the purpose of it would be to let them sort out their dominance between each other. I think if the one being humped reacts negatively (lashes out, makes grunting or sad murmur noises) then I would separate them. Some buns also hump without end. I would separate them if you find that the humping never stops.

Fur pulling could just be overzealous grooming. Again, if the one being groomed is not complaining, I would let it play out for now. Some bond mates groom each other to the point of having bald spots -- that's when some intervention may be needed. But it doesn't sound too severe with Solara and Sabriel.

BTW, fascination with butt seems to be an animal thing. They're checking out each other's scent

 

[renaelock]

Here's my response, I'm a new to the rabbit scene so I don't know if my "facts" are truly facts for everyone, but I believe them to be true.

Did she grunt to say "Stoppit, I'm done with you doing this"?
Usually when a rabbit gunts, as far as I know.., it’s an unhappy noise. She’s probably just grunting to say, This isn’t fun.

Was the pulling out of Solara's fur for grooming or to prep her for humping?
I’d consider the pulling of hair to be a bad thing, UNLESS you can tell it’s the hair that is moulting. If it’s the moulting hair and he’s not pulling out attached hair, I’d leave it, but if he’s pulling out hair that is attached to Solara, I’d just redirect him or squirt him with water to make him stop for a little bit. I have two males bonding now, and whenever I saw hair being pulled, it was NOT a good thing.

How soon should I stop Sabriel from humping?
What I’ve read is let the humping go for a little bit and then gently remove the humper to get him to stop. Also stop the humping if Solara looks overly terrified. Humping is a dominance thing and after a couple of visits with my two boys the humping stopped because Potter is ok with Polo being the dominant one.

Is this a good or bad squeak? Meaning?
I’ve read that when bonding buns in the beginning of grooming they sometimes bite instead of lick. It’s possible the squeak was a pain response from Sabriel nibbling instead of licking. She was probably jus ttelling him it hurt a little.

Does this mean she liked it and is content? Yes.

Is she just cleaning his ears, or do you think there is a deeper meaning to it? I was told by a rescue lady that deep affection is when bunnies nibble on the ears of each other. Since she is licking his ears, it’s probably a very good sign of trust and friendship.

how well do YOU think the bonding sessions are going? Sounds like your sessions are going extremely well!
how long should I keep them in the bathtub? When should we move them somewhere else? And where? I kinda made up my own rules when it came to location, but I noticed any new location or new size of same location there would be more poops outside of the litter box…When I started out, I started the buns in the bathroom, then sometimes if the previous session didn’t go well I’d do the “vibrating box scare” and put them in the bathtub. On a nice day, maybe a week later I put them outside for bonding time. Now their bonding is done in the kitchen but was previously done in the living room (until Polo started chewing on the protective flooring – Potter). Anyway, I would think you can play around with the location of bonding sessions. But KEEP IT NEUTRAL. Everywhere in my home was neutral because I didn’t have the exercise pens before I got the second bun so I can put them anywhere basically and it’s neutral. I’d say keep them in the tub for a week and then move to either the bathroom floor or any other place of neutral grounds.

I'm not sure about the max time. At that stage with my bunnies they would max out at 15 minutes but would sometimes hit 30 minutes in it early sessions. I'd say as long as they are comfortable with each other and no fighting occurs, time doesn't matter. I'd usually have the buns out for a while and then Polo would start something and then I'd split it up and have some time of good experiences and then put them back. In a time frame of 3 weeks, I've gone from 15 minutes to 30, one was 6 minutes (bad session) then 45 minutes, then 1 hour, then 1.5 hours then 2 hours, now we are up to 3-4 hours together. I think I kept the session length the same for a couple sessions and then tried to add more time. Somehow I ended up at the 4 hour mark. Every bonding is different, I don't know if my sessions (the length of time together) are moving too fast or right on track or are too slow, but I don't care. My rabbits aren't fighting and everything is going well.

 

[elrohwen]

The fur pulling sounds like butt nipping. This is very common, even for pairs far into the bonding process, and doesn't hurt. You should supervise, but let them do it. They need to work things like this out for themselves. As long as it doesn't turn into a fight, it's fine.

When Solara grunted, it was probably to tell your boy that she was sick of being humped. I've seen my boy do the same thing. It's all a part of their communication that they'll need to work out. You need to let Sabriel hump sometimes, but stop before Solara can get really ticked off. I spent too much time preventing humping and, as a result, have bunnies who are still working out their dominance issues after a month of living together 24/7. It's hard to watch, and they can get really into it, but try to let it go as much as possible, only stopping it if he mounts her head or if he has mounted her for more than 10 or 20 seconds.

Overall I think they are doing pretty well together. The sessions can go as long as you want, really. The goal is to force them to be together as long as possible without any fighting. As long as they aren't fighting (rolling in a ball, trying to hurt each other) they're just working things out, so it's a good thing. My own personal rule is to wait until you trust them in one area before moving to another. Once you feel you can leave them in the bathroom to run and get a glass of water, or a book, they might be ready to move to another neutral area. Just remember that when you move to a new space, they will revert back to some of the humping and nipping that you may have moved past in the tub. This is normal.

As for grooming - grooming between buns who have never had friends is sometimes awkward. You'll see somebunny nibble at the eyes of the other bun, or focus on just one body part. This is all totally normal and they'll get better at grooming as time goes on. The fact that you have any grooming at this stage is hugely positive.

 

[Yield]

Thank you for the tips everyone

Hmm... Sabriel was pulling at Solara's whiskers today. My first instinct was to stop him when she flinched, so I did. The next time it happened, I let Solara handle it. He stopped doing it.

They also now seem to be combatting for the other to groom them. They push each other's faces together and down, trying to get the other to give in and groom them first. Solara usually gives in, but Sabriel ended up giving in a bit later. It was cute.

There was only one humping incident this time, Sabriel humped Solara's head, and I stopped him after a couple seconds- cause no one wants to be humped on the head, but as you guys said, dominance needs to be established...

I am pretty sure they are molting, they are shedding much more than usual, and the fur pulling didn't appear to hurt Solara, so yeah.. he didn't do it as much this time. They both seem to be getting the hang of grooming. They seem like they're getting the feel of it, and it probably feels more natural now.

The squeaking part- he wasn't really even grooming her. He'll hop past her, and brush her and she'll squeak... seems more like a submissive thing I'm thinking now.

They haven't been fighting at all, though if Solara gets frustrated she'll hop away and flick her tail as if I had just picked her up. I feel like I can trust them (not enough to move on to the next stage) enough to relax a little while I watch them interact, and even text while they do so (obviously I still keep a constant eye on them since I can text and not even look at the phone)

 

[elrohwen]

They sound pretty good! It will take you a while to get comfortable enough to do anything else while they're bonding, but that's a good thing. I know too many people who have stepped out of the room and come back to a huge fight. Sometimes they behave while we're there, but do whatever they want as soon as you walk away. My guys have been living together for a month, but my girl still chases. If I'm there, I just have to look at her and she'll stop. If I'm not there, she'll do it over and over until my boy gets ticked off and snaps at her. So your presence can make a big difference and you want to use it to your advantage in the early stages.

Don't worry about the fur pulling - it doesn't hurt them.

You were right to stop him from face humping. Getting his boy bits bitten off would not be good!

Not sure about the squeaking. Could you post a video where we can hear the sound? It might be her saying "Don't try any of that humping stuff, buddy!"

 

[Yield]

elrohwen wrote:

They sound pretty good! It will take you a while to get comfortable enough to do anything else while they're bonding, but that's a good thing. I know too many people who have stepped out of the room and come back to a huge fight. Sometimes they behave while we're there, but do whatever they want as soon as you walk away. My guys have been living together for a month, but my girl still chases. If I'm there, I just have to look at her and she'll stop. If I'm not there, she'll do it over and over until my boy gets ticked off and snaps at her. So your presence can make a big difference and you want to use it to your advantage in the early stages.

Don't worry about the fur pulling - it doesn't hurt them.

You were right to stop him from face humping. Getting his boy bits bitten off would not be good!

Not sure about the squeaking. Could you post a video where we can hear the sound? It might be her saying "Don't try any of that humping stuff, buddy!"

Yeah, today Sabriel insisted on humping and chasing Solara. She was NOT happy. She kept grunting and he wouldn't stop, so I moved them each to opposite sides of the tub until they calmed down, and let each other approach each other again. They cuddled for a few minutes, and then we ended the bonding session. They'd been in there for around an hour.

As soon as I left to get a piece of romaine lettuce for them (earlier in the bonding session) (my mom was still in there) Sabriel started hump Solara's head. He obviously knows better (for the most part) when I'm around.

Is pulling fur while humping normal?

Yeah, I heard about how boy parts get bitten off.. sounds very painful! Now when he humps her head, he like slides up so he's completely on top of her, she hates it. I try to stop it as soon as possible. Sometimes its hard because he acts like he's gunna groom her, then randomly starts humping her, but she hasn't gotten too angry, just some grunting when he comes close and running away.

[flash=425,344]http://www.youtube.com/v/BNMUC8NpU50&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

That is sorta the squeak she's making (of course that isn't solara though, I didn't get this reply until after the bonding session so I wasn't able to get a video).

 

[elrohwen]

Fur pulling while humping is totally normal - they usually grab a mouthful of it to help them hang on.

Not sure how to stop the face humping other than pulling them off. In my experience, they do kind of figure out that humping the correct way is the only way you'll allow it.

Still not sure about the squeaking! I've never heard a bunny make that sound and in this context, it's really hard to tell if she's being friendly or aggressive, especially because Sabriel is known to hump her against her will ;-)

You're definitely on the right track though. If you are able to take videos during the session (I know it's hard when you're paying attention) that would help for others to read their body language and see what's going on.

 

[Yield]

elrohwen wrote:

Fur pulling while humping is totally normal - they usually grab a mouthful of it to help them hang on.

Not sure how to stop the face humping other than pulling them off. In my experience, they do kind of figure out that humping the correct way is the only way you'll allow it.

Still not sure about the squeaking! I've never heard a bunny make that sound and in this context, it's really hard to tell if she's being friendly or aggressive, especially because Sabriel is known to hump her against her will ;-)

You're definitely on the right track though. If you are able to take videos during the session (I know it's hard when you're paying attention) that would help for others to read their body language and see what's going on.

XD thank you!

Yeah, he's really persistant with face humping though.. I really need to get him to stop that.. The thing is, Solara loves when he grooms her face, so she holds still, and he gets the chance to hump her head. She knows if she stays still with Sabriel behind her though, that he'll hump her or go for her butt. So he never has a chance to hump her the proper way, and if he does, he rides all the way up her body! (He's so obnoxious.. lol)

You've never heard a bunny squeak!? It's cute, because it seems like a submissive noise to me.. because putting their head down is submissive, and that's when she squeaks. She used to do that sometimes when I pet her as well. I'll try to record a video during the next bonding session. I'll need to get batteries for my camera. And hope the file-type works on the computer XD

 

[tonyshuman]

That squeak sounds like a happy little chirp. I have heard it from some shelter bunnies, and from Muffin once or twice.

My Muffin does the groom face, then hump face thing. She's always done it. It's weird because it's a dominant/submissive behavior switch. You can push him off if he humps too much.

 

[elrohwen]

Putting their head down is actually dominant - it's a "groom me now, slave!" signal. Not saying the squeak is or isn't dominant though. It might just mean "Can you groom me now?"

My boy is also into face humping, though he hasn't done it in a while. My girl would ask for grooms and sometimes he would groom and other times he would face hump. I think it's a way of saying "You're asking for grooms, but I'm in charge so I'm going to hump you." But then it is odd when they do choose to groom, because that's a submissive behavior. My girl never face humps and only does it the correct way. Funny how the boys can't seem to figure out which way is the right way ;-)

 

[JadeIcing]

Keep in mind submissives will also put their heads down for grooming hoping for some affection.:biggrin:

 

[kirbyultra]

JadeIcing wrote:

Keep in mind submissives will also put their heads down for grooming hoping for some affection.:biggrin:

So true... I think during bonding, both buns'll probably try and see what they can get away with as they work out their dominance decisions. It's like "you do me first", "no, you do me first!"

 

[tonyshuman]

Oh I meant that Muffin will groom Tony's face and then immediately hump his face. It sounds like Sabriel is doing the same thing to Solara. That way it's a dominant-submissive behavior switch.

 

[elrohwen]

Claire, I agree with what you said. My comment was just about Yield's earlier comment that Solara was being submissive because she's putting her head down - I was just pointing that that's not necessarily what she's doing. Solara requesting grooms is typically more dominant than submissive.

 

[Yield]

elrohwen wrote:

Putting their head down is actually dominant - it's a "groom me now, slave!" signal. Not saying the squeak is or isn't dominant though. It might just mean "Can you groom me now?"

My boy is also into face humping, though he hasn't done it in a while. My girl would ask for grooms and sometimes he would groom and other times he would face hump. I think it's a way of saying "You're asking for grooms, but I'm in charge so I'm going to hump you." But then it is odd when they do choose to groom, because that's a submissive behavior. My girl never face humps and only does it the correct way. Funny how the boys can't seem to figure out which way is the right way ;-)

I must have gotten that mixed up.. though as Ali said, I believe Solara puts her head down for some grooming submissively. She's a VERY submissive bun. (I thought she'd act more dominant than Sabriel XD) She not ONCE has humped Sabriel. She is the one always obeying and squeaking for attention (though she doesn't take bullcrap!)

Sabriel does seem to put his head down in a dominant "GROOM ME NOW" way though XD

Solara grooms the most- Sabriel always is very hesitant before he grooms. It takes a lot of convincing from Solara for him to do so.

 

[elrohwen]

Both bunnies will request grooms, so that's normal. It's also normal for them to take a while to figure out who is dominant. I have an extremely submissive boy who went through a 2 week period (after moving in together full time) of humping my girl. Not sure what he was thinking and I was very surprised to see him switch over like that, but now it's gone back to my girl being in charge.

 

[Yield]

elrohwen wrote:

Both bunnies will request grooms, so that's normal. It's also normal for them to take a while to figure out who is dominant. I have an extremely submissive boy who went through a 2 week period (after moving in together full time) of humping my girl. Not sure what he was thinking and I was very surprised to see him switch over like that, but now it's gone back to my girl being in charge.

yeah, they're taking a while. solara is still demanding grooms and Sabriel is humpinghumpinghumping! XD She doesn't take it though, she runs away and flicks her tail and back feet at him as she runs, like, "No wayyy!" Lately he's been even more interested in her butt. He like groomed her butt yesterday (under her tail, not the above XD) and she just sat there, so she like pushed her face under his butt today, and he ran off XD.

we had them eat some veggies together today, and a piece of an apple. They're doing great, really. We moved the bonding sessions from the tub, to the tiled floor.

They aren't ready to be placed together yet, but how do you do that? Who's cage do you pick? etc,etc,etc.

 

[tonyshuman]

If you can, combining cages is best. I put Muffin into Tony's cage because her cage wasn't very big. I know with breeding rabbits, you put the female into the male's cage. Females are really territorial, so they might do better getting a new territory than having to share the one that is already theirs with the male.

 

[Yield]

tonyshuman wrote:

If you can, combining cages is best. I put Muffin into Tony's cage because her cage wasn't very big. I know with breeding rabbits, you put the female into the male's cage. Females are really territorial, so they might do better getting a new territory than having to share the one that is already theirs with the male.

I ended up putting Sabriel in Solara's cage. She was fine with it, and now they live together in Solara's cage and are out in a huge pen every day They cuddle and love on each other all the time.