Can you p leaseexplain the Extension and NonextensionGene , I am curious as to themeaning and what it does, now keep in mind I am notoverly bright on this Uselittle words lol , noseriously I would really loveto know what it means and entails .
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pamnock
Well-Known Member
The E series isn't too complicated. Here is the order of dominance (from most to least dominant):
Es -- The steel gene. "Fills in" agouti/tanpatternmarkings. Has no effect on selfs.Homozygous Es Es can produce a rabbit that appears to be aself. Heterozygous (one copy) is most desired in combinationwith the agouti gene.
E -- Full extension gene -- this is the "normal" gene that most rabbitshave. (black, blue, chocolate, lilac, chestnut, chinchilla, lynx (truelynx, not faux lynx), opal, squirrel, pointed white/himi/cal, seal,smoke pearl), tan, otter, sandy, light gray, gray, martens).
ej -- The harlequin gene. Gives the best effect when combined with the agouti gene.
e -- The non-extension gene (the least recessive in theseries). This gene limits the extension of black pigment onthe hair shaft creating colors such as tort, orange, red, frosty, sablepoint orcream depending on what other gene series it iscombined with.
REW and BEW can have any of the above E series genes.
Pam
Es -- The steel gene. "Fills in" agouti/tanpatternmarkings. Has no effect on selfs.Homozygous Es Es can produce a rabbit that appears to be aself. Heterozygous (one copy) is most desired in combinationwith the agouti gene.
E -- Full extension gene -- this is the "normal" gene that most rabbitshave. (black, blue, chocolate, lilac, chestnut, chinchilla, lynx (truelynx, not faux lynx), opal, squirrel, pointed white/himi/cal, seal,smoke pearl), tan, otter, sandy, light gray, gray, martens).
ej -- The harlequin gene. Gives the best effect when combined with the agouti gene.
e -- The non-extension gene (the least recessive in theseries). This gene limits the extension of black pigment onthe hair shaft creating colors such as tort, orange, red, frosty, sablepoint orcream depending on what other gene series it iscombined with.
REW and BEW can have any of the above E series genes.
Pam
dajeti2
Well-Known Member
Gypsy, thank you so much for bringing this up.
Pam, as always thank you so much for explaining it so well.
Tina
Pam, as always thank you so much for explaining it so well.
Tina
Thank You Pam Iwas going bonkers trying to figure outwhat it all meant , this makesit so much clearer ,even for a gentic dummy such as myself .
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Your Pals (Golden or Lynx) would benon-extension colors. (The Pal Lynx are not true Lynx, butbasically "blue fawns" or what is know as "cream" in the Lops).
Pam
Pam
OH OOHHOW cool that is Ididnt know that , My Palominosare Lynx , Blue fawnssounds awsome , im not surewhich name for them is actuallyprettier , ok lets see ifI got this correct ,
If a normal gene'd Palominodoesnt have the the Non Extensiongene it would just bethe normal blonde color ofthe Goldens ? But with the NonExtenision it changes the genepattern to a blue creatingthe Lynxing ?
If a normal gene'd Palominodoesnt have the the Non Extensiongene it would just bethe normal blonde color ofthe Goldens ? But with the NonExtenision it changes the genepattern to a blue creatingthe Lynxing ?
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Think of the non-extension gene as stripping thecolor from the Chestnut colored rabbit. If you replace theChestnut's full "E" with "ee", you get the Golden Pal. TheLynx Pal would be an Opal (dilute Chestnut) if you replaced the Lynx's"ee" with the full extension "E".
Here are the full genotypes:
Chestnut: A_ B_ C_ D_ E_
Golden: A_ B_ C_ D_ ee
Opal: A_ B_ C_dd E_
Lynx: A_ B_ C_dd ee
(Note that the "Lynx" genotype above is for the blue fawn "fauxlynx". A true Lynx is a lilac agouti A_ bb C_ ddEE). Note that the genotypes are very different, but thephenotype (appearance) is very similar.
Pam
Here are the full genotypes:
Chestnut: A_ B_ C_ D_ E_
Golden: A_ B_ C_ D_ ee
Opal: A_ B_ C_dd E_
Lynx: A_ B_ C_dd ee
(Note that the "Lynx" genotype above is for the blue fawn "fauxlynx". A true Lynx is a lilac agouti A_ bb C_ ddEE). Note that the genotypes are very different, but thephenotype (appearance) is very similar.
Pam
I think Ipartially get it I am going tohave to re read it a coupletimes to get it straight in my mind .
pamnock
Well-Known Member
It gets more complicated when you try to put allthe genes together and attempt to understand their interaction and theresulting colors.
Throwing in the Wide Band gene can further complicate things-- I've seen geneticWide Band Chestnuts that appeared to besooty reds. :?
Pam
Throwing in the Wide Band gene can further complicate things-- I've seen geneticWide Band Chestnuts that appeared to besooty reds. :?
Pam
Would youmind explaining the WideBand Gene , altho complicatedits Highly interesting .
pamnock
Well-Known Member
The wideband gene is not common or non-existantin many breeds, so reference to it is often left out ofgenotypes. In wide band breeds, such as Tans -- they are allwidebands so we don't bother to write it out.
The wide band gene is a recessive allele that fills in agouti markingswith red color (the Tan breed for example). The onlydifference between the Tan and the Otter is that the Tan is recessive"ww". The effect of the wide band gene on theAgouti coat is to widen the intermediate band. This is whereit can make Chestnuts appear to be sooty reds (Belgian Hares, forexample). The gene can also produce very lightChinchillas.
The part that is most confusing to people is that the wide band genehas nothing to do with the "wide band" variety group in the ARBAStandard. They are completely different things.You'll find colors such as orange, fawn, cream and red listed in thestandard as "wide band", but the only true genetic wide band variety ofthat group is red.
Other wide band breeds/colors:
Red Satin & Red New Zealand
Belgian Hares
Tans
Red Satin Angoras
I have also seen photos of stunning red satin lops.
(the "red" Mini Rex/Rex are generally just oranges without the true genetic wide band).
Thrianta (pictured below -- note that it does not have the white bellylike an orange would have) -- these guys are true red, red, wide bands!
"Red" Mini Rex -- note the white eye circles, white under tail and white belly (a severe fault)
The wide band gene is a recessive allele that fills in agouti markingswith red color (the Tan breed for example). The onlydifference between the Tan and the Otter is that the Tan is recessive"ww". The effect of the wide band gene on theAgouti coat is to widen the intermediate band. This is whereit can make Chestnuts appear to be sooty reds (Belgian Hares, forexample). The gene can also produce very lightChinchillas.
The part that is most confusing to people is that the wide band genehas nothing to do with the "wide band" variety group in the ARBAStandard. They are completely different things.You'll find colors such as orange, fawn, cream and red listed in thestandard as "wide band", but the only true genetic wide band variety ofthat group is red.
Other wide band breeds/colors:
Red Satin & Red New Zealand
Belgian Hares
Tans
Red Satin Angoras
I have also seen photos of stunning red satin lops.
(the "red" Mini Rex/Rex are generally just oranges without the true genetic wide band).
Thrianta (pictured below -- note that it does not have the white bellylike an orange would have) -- these guys are true red, red, wide bands!
"Red" Mini Rex -- note the white eye circles, white under tail and white belly (a severe fault)
"Red" Mini Rex -- note the white eye circles, white under tail and white belly (a severe fault)
I am trying tounderstand thishonest but I have to ask withthis Red Mini rex ,with the white showing up ,what went gentically wrong to produce thewhite , was it an introductiona white gene ? Or another color to makethe white under belly and tail and eyebands ? how would it beeliminated from the nextKindle to produce theTrue Red ?
lol My printer is smoking ,this is getting very interesting .
I am trying tounderstand thishonest but I have to ask withthis Red Mini rex ,with the white showing up ,what went gentically wrong to produce thewhite , was it an introductiona white gene ? Or another color to makethe white under belly and tail and eyebands ? how would it beeliminated from the nextKindle to produce theTrue Red ?
lol My printer is smoking ,this is getting very interesting .
pamnock
Well-Known Member
The very white belly indicates the absence ofthe recessive wide band gene -- so genetically, the rabbit wouldactually be an orange. True reds are recessive wide band.
It takes a while for this stuff to click. Little pieces willeventually fit together and you'll get the whole picture
Pam
It takes a while for this stuff to click. Little pieces willeventually fit together and you'll get the whole picture
Pam
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
pamnock wrote:
Gypsy,
I doubt this will help at all - but just to maybe make you feelbetter....I've been studying genetics since before I decided to startbreeding. I've bought a book on color genetics....and I'veread and reread and reread parts....
....and I'm still LOST when it comes to lots of this stuff.
I'm happy that I'm learning about the dilute genes and recognizing thedifference between say "agouti" and "shaded" families...and I stilldon't really understand it enough to talk about it - just enough to aska dumb question and go "aha aha" as Pam explains it!
However, every time I read it - I do grasp a bit more than I did before -and the pictures really help!
Peg
Ittakes a while for this stuff to click. Little pieces willeventually fit together and you'll get the whole picture
Pam
Gypsy,
I doubt this will help at all - but just to maybe make you feelbetter....I've been studying genetics since before I decided to startbreeding. I've bought a book on color genetics....and I'veread and reread and reread parts....
....and I'm still LOST when it comes to lots of this stuff.
I'm happy that I'm learning about the dilute genes and recognizing thedifference between say "agouti" and "shaded" families...and I stilldon't really understand it enough to talk about it - just enough to aska dumb question and go "aha aha" as Pam explains it!
However, every time I read it - I do grasp a bit more than I did before -and the pictures really help!
Peg
I am so glad to hearit will all come together, I want to ThankYou for taking the time toexplain it all to me , I amgoing to read and reread ittill it gets thru my head, I am sureI will have other Questions , Would youmind If I called onYou again for answers ? .Its getting more and moreinteresting as I read, and that" I just have toknow" bug is settingin .
pamnock
Well-Known Member
It will eventually click
I don't mind if you "pick my brain" -- I find genetics very interesting.
Pam
I don't mind if you "pick my brain" -- I find genetics very interesting.
Pam
Thank You I appreciate your time .
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
Personally, I think Pam ought to have a genetics thread going all the time anyway.....because it IS so fascinating!
Of the various parts of the color genetics...I understand A, B& D. C & E though always throw me....(E isthe extension part she was talkingabout).
Peg
Of the various parts of the color genetics...I understand A, B& D. C & E though always throw me....(E isthe extension part she was talkingabout).
Peg
Peg : what a wonderfull Idea, !!!! I know theres a lot toGenetics and would most likelyn eed a new printer beforeit came to a near endbut It would be worth it .
One of the Main reasons Istarted this thread was becauseI didnt understand the Non Extension, and now have the tiniestgrasp on it , which makes me feellike I actually learned something. I would love to know more ,The reason being MyFirend just had a litter of 2Mini's born The Mother is aBroken black and white andthe Father is a Self Steel, One of the babiesis Black , possible Steel, But the OtherBaby is a Broken Orange , and Icant figure out where itcame from , as Far as Iknow there is no reds ororanges in the liniage . But the NonExtension explination gave me thethought that somewhere along herLine or the Fathers thatthe Factor was there buthidden from sight.
One of the Main reasons Istarted this thread was becauseI didnt understand the Non Extension, and now have the tiniestgrasp on it , which makes me feellike I actually learned something. I would love to know more ,The reason being MyFirend just had a litter of 2Mini's born The Mother is aBroken black and white andthe Father is a Self Steel, One of the babiesis Black , possible Steel, But the OtherBaby is a Broken Orange , and Icant figure out where itcame from , as Far as Iknow there is no reds ororanges in the liniage . But the NonExtension explination gave me thethought that somewhere along herLine or the Fathers thatthe Factor was there buthidden from sight.
pamnock
Well-Known Member
The C series is one of the most complicated,simply because it has the most known alleles and because of itsdifferent effects when combined with other gene series.
The "C" series restricts red (yellow) pigment in the coat. Asyou go down the series, more pigment is removed from thecoat. Here is the order of dominance . . .
"C" is the most dominant. "C" colors include black, blue,chocolate, lilac, chestnut, copper, gray, tan, otter, tort, opal, lynx,orange, japanese harlequin, fawn and red.
"Cchd" is the dark chinchilla gene. Combined with the agoutigene "A", it produces colors such as chinchilla and squirrel.Combined with the tan pattern gene "at" it produces the martencolors. There is little change in the coat when combined withself "a". The coat may be lighter or the rabbit may have thewrong eye color (a black with blue eyes for example).
"Cchl" is the light chinchilla gene (to avoid confusion, generallycalled the shaded gene). When conbined with agouti "A"(generally avoided in most breeds), colors such as sable agouti areproduced.Combining with tan pattern "at" producessable marten or smoke pearl marten. Combining with self "a"produces sable point, siamese sableand siamese smoke pearl.
"ch" is the himalayan gene. (called pointed white or californian insome breeds). Combining with agouti "A" or tan "at" is not desiredbecause it produces tan pattern marking on the himi (a DQ).
"c" is the albino gene which in the homozygous state, completely removes all color from the coat and eyes.
BEW can possess any of the C series (except homozygous "cc" which would make it REW).
The "C" series restricts red (yellow) pigment in the coat. Asyou go down the series, more pigment is removed from thecoat. Here is the order of dominance . . .
"C" is the most dominant. "C" colors include black, blue,chocolate, lilac, chestnut, copper, gray, tan, otter, tort, opal, lynx,orange, japanese harlequin, fawn and red.
"Cchd" is the dark chinchilla gene. Combined with the agoutigene "A", it produces colors such as chinchilla and squirrel.Combined with the tan pattern gene "at" it produces the martencolors. There is little change in the coat when combined withself "a". The coat may be lighter or the rabbit may have thewrong eye color (a black with blue eyes for example).
"Cchl" is the light chinchilla gene (to avoid confusion, generallycalled the shaded gene). When conbined with agouti "A"(generally avoided in most breeds), colors such as sable agouti areproduced.Combining with tan pattern "at" producessable marten or smoke pearl marten. Combining with self "a"produces sable point, siamese sableand siamese smoke pearl.
"ch" is the himalayan gene. (called pointed white or californian insome breeds). Combining with agouti "A" or tan "at" is not desiredbecause it produces tan pattern marking on the himi (a DQ).
"c" is the albino gene which in the homozygous state, completely removes all color from the coat and eyes.
BEW can possess any of the C series (except homozygous "cc" which would make it REW).
