My females... don't know what to do

I have 4 buns:
Mom, Dad, Son and Daughter.
Parents are 1year 3month old, children are 8 months old.
Both males are neutered, both girls are not spayed.
When I brought home my first rabbits (The parents) I didn't know much about rabbits. All my friend told me was "They are very easy to take care of", which of course proven false afterwards.
Anyway... I am just trying to tell that I didn't think well about all the things back then.
No, I don't have lots of problems. Nobody fights, they are getting along pretty well all together. Sometimes females demonstrate little dislikes to each other but this doesn't go too far.
The only thing that saddens me is that Daughter seems to be a loner, or maybe other three just don't let her in. She is often seen on her own while three others like to be together.
The problem is that I don't know what to do with my females. At first, I didn't plan to spay them. I know about that cancer deal. Well, I was thinking that age when it becomes dangerous is far away. I don't know a good vet and I don't have that much money. Neutering Dad was 160 and it was absolutely the cheapest I could find.
My husband never supported idea of having the rabbits. My daughter was the one who wanted rabbits and when our friend got kits, we took couple from them. Several months later they got babies (it was a happy time), and we kept two of them as I couldn't find good homes for everybody.
I try to take good care of my rabbits, I spend quite a lot for food and veggies and I don't work (I am at school). I don't have money to spay.... at all.
What worries me is that Mom looks absolutely unhappy, after she realized there is no males to chase her. Daughter is just a bit hyper, but I don't see that unhappiness in her eyes yet.
I was thinking to breed them one time, but again, I understand it will bring even more problems. Summer is coming, weather is becoming miserable (and they are mostly outdoor rabbits), I wanted to leave to my native country during summer for couple of months. My husband WILL take care of them, of course, but certainly babies would make it more complicated.
What would you do in such situation? Is it dangerous for female health when she has nobody to mate with?

Breeding her really won't solve any problems. She would need to be separated from the others before she gives birth. You said you had trouble finding homes for 2 of the babies last time, it isn't going to be easier this time. Can you really take on another few rabbits if you can't find homes? Most breeders will not stud out males, especially to people they don't know. Usually if you want to breed, you need both the buck and doe as yours.

Not breeding should not affect her health. She may have hormonal behaviours and be wanting to breed, but she won't get sick or depressed by not breeding. There are risks to breeding from stuck kits to infection and death.

I would strongly suggest you work on getting them spayed. Time can pass quickly and by the time something does come up health wise, it could be too late to do anything about it. Even if you can put away $20-50 a month, you should be able to pay for the spay. There might be a low cost option where you live as well. In the long run, spaying does mellow them you and make it easier for them to live with other rabbits, helps prevent health problems related to reproduction and prevents the possibabilty of pregnancy.

it does not hurt your rabbits to not be bred.
you may be reading your own thoughts into her eyes.
if your does are not hurting each other and they aren't spayed and all are living together well then I'd would inclined to leave well enough alone.

BUT if you really want to get them spayed (I always tell people to take the spay/neuter thing on a case by case basis) then slowly save up the money to do so, or find something at which you can make some money and put that aside for the surgery. AND I would advise getting both done at the same time if at all possible, just to minimize upset.

Korr_and_Sophie said:

Breeding her really won't solve any problems. She would need to be separated from the others before she gives birth.

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why?
Dad and Her were kept together when she was pregnant last time.

some rabbits will do well in a colony situation.
You do need to be aware that if you breed her you are changing the hormones within the colony and that might (just MIGHT) cause problems between mother and daughter.

Please save up for the mother's spay, so it can be done in another year, 18 months. Then start saving for the daughter's spay. Having more babies is fun for you, but not helpful for the rabbits.

LakeCondo said:

Having more babies is fun for you, but not helpful for the rabbits.

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Personally I don't need any baby buns - I have my own human child.
The other day I was looking at the calendar in the store called "Mommy and Me" that pictured motherhood in animals. I sadly thought that I took away this opportunity from my pets in such a cruel manner (when suddenly her partner loses interest). If we don't account for increasing rabbit's population and difficulties to find quality care, how could fulfilling natural instincts be bad? Why is it not helpful for the rabbits, I mean parent rabbits? Or did you mean children rabbits?

Thank you all!
The main question was if lack of mating could harm the bun in any manner - first of all, psychologically (depression). Some people answered this question. If somebody can add something about it, please do.

I had an unspayed female living with a neutered male, for a couple years. The fact that he didn't have any of 'that' kind of interest in her, did't stop her from humping him, or make her seem frustrated with his lack of mating interest. They both liked each other, would snuggle together, and occasionally she would try and hump him. Now she is spayed and their relationship is pretty much the same, but she just doesn't hardly ever hump him anymore. Maybe it's just your rabbits personality, and doesn't really have all that much to do with the lack of hormonal male attention, but it can be hard to tell sometimes, what is going on with rabbits.

If you ever decide that you might want to get the spays done, sometimes you can find lowcost spays. Check with the humane society, rescues, or a spay/neuter clinic. Most of the vets around my area, charged $100-200. I found a spay/neuter clinic that did it for $65., and that included pain meds.

Spaying made my female rabbit a lot happier. She used to have false pregnancies where she'd stop eating for a few hours, make a nest, and growl at me. After being spayed, she doesn't do this anymore, and she won't get uterine cancer either. Lucy is very happy and doesn't display hormonal behaviors any more. I don't think rabbits have a concept of having motherhood stolen from them.

So it would probably be a good idea to save up for spays. Maybe you could try calling your local animal shelter and asking if they know where you can get low-cost spays for rabbits.

In summary, not mating isn't dangerous, but not spaying is. The statistic is 80% of rabbits will develop uterine cancer by the age of three years. Those are pretty bad odds.

http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/resources/content/info-sheets/uterine.htm

minmelethuireb said:

Spaying made my female rabbit a lot happier. She used to have false pregnancies where she'd stop eating for a few hours, make a nest, and growl at me.

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What makes you think that Lucy was unhappy when she did what she did before she got spayed, and spay made her much happier? From what you have said, I conclude that spay certainly made the owner happier. I mean, at the beginning her behavior was natural and I don't think it was making her unhappy.
But sure, cancer is a good point when you choose spay. Thanks for the link, it is interesting.
So, does spay completely exclude possibility of cancer? I didn't know they completely cut everything out.
When female is actively breeding, does it decrease chance of cancer or not?

Thumperina said:

What makes you think that Lucy was unhappy when she did what she did before she got spayed, and spay made her much happier? From what you have said, I conclude that spay certainly made the owner happier. I mean, at the beginning her behavior was natural and I don't think it was making her unhappy.

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The same question could be asked of your assumption when you said of your bunny that "What worries me is that Mom looks absolutely unhappy, after she realized there is no males to chase her." How can you possibly make the connection that the lack of a male chasing her is making her unhappy?

For that matter, why do you think she's unhappy? There could be any number of factors that could cause her to be behaving differently.

I think assuming that instinctual behavior makes an animal "happy" is itself a bit presumptuous. One could argue that a fixed bunny pair that is bonded lead relatively stress-free and happy long lives, while a female that's constantly bred lives a shorter life full of physical stress.

Your argument seems to suggest (if followed to its logical conclusion) that a domestic rabbit would be happiest if set free in the wild to live its life "as intended." Of course that would surely mean an extremely stressful and likely very short life for the rabbit.

I say happier, but I guess it's more like friendlier. She used pull her fur out every month or so and make a nest, then hunch in a corner and growl at me. This doesn't really seem normal because she wasn't bred or pregnant, so why is she making a nest? It happens because of hormones, and it seemed stressful.

Now she never growls and always wants out to play, never hunches in a corner.

Here's another article. I don't know about breeding keeping cancer away, but it does decrease a rabbit's lifespan, because pregnancies do take toll on the rabbits' bodies.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/breeding.html

"In addition to the danger of cancer, gestation, birth and raising a litter take a large toll on a doe's health. Wild rabbits live only one or two years before the rigors of natural life (including the high expense of the high rate of reproduction) take their toll.

Most breeder rabbits, often forced to raise several litters a year, don't last beyond the age of four or five, when the body begins to break down under the constant strain of reproduction, and their "productivity" starts to lag.

In contrast, a well-cared for spayed/neutered house rabbit can live more than ten years. Spay/neuter will allow your bunny to have rabbit companions without the stress of constant sex drive, and will reduce aggression and destructive behaviors such as carpet chewing, digging and spraying"


They remove the ovaries and the uterus, just like with cats and dogs, so they won't get those kinds of cancer. The only danger is if you wait too long and the rabbit develops cancer in those areas before you spay her, because it may have already spread. Often the cancer spreads to the rabbits lungs, and that's what kills them.


I hope I don't sound like I'm lecturing or arguing with you, I just think it's good to be well-educated about this issue.

Blue eyes said:

Your argument seems to suggest (if followed to its logical conclusion) that a domestic rabbit would be happiest if set free in the wild to live its life "as intended." Of course that would surely mean an extremely stressful and likely very short life for the rabbit.

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Honestly... I think that they would be happiest when they are as near to the natural conditions as possible (sure it is just my personal opinion). Do you think that wild rabbits live life full of stress? I am not so sure. I mean, the stress they have is in their nature. I think that wild rabbits live short but pretty happy life in the wild (if they live in the climate with abundant resources). At least, I can see them happily hopping around. My bunnies sometimes look at wild rabbits through the fence with envy.

minmelethuireb said:

I hope I don't sound like I'm lecturing or arguing with you, I just think it's good to be well-educated about this issue.

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Not at all - thank you!

As for living for more than 10 years, it may sound strange but I am a little scared by this pretty long term. I would certainly prefer shorter but brighter life, rather than long but dull. Right now it just seems to me that after all the hormones being removed, all they live for would be eating. Hopefully I am wrong

my bunnies live for destroying things more than eating (cardboard boxes especially).

I feel like you're trying to put human emotions on animal behavior - animals don't go through the same emotional experiences as humans regarding childbirth and parenting. they raise their babies for a few weeks and then kick them out into the world on their own and that's that.

I got a pregnant hamster at the pet store last fall. she seems a LOT happier these days than she did when she was raising all those babies - she looks less tired and less stressed. her weight has filled out a bit more and she looks healthier. she was *definitely* ready to be rid of all of them when it was finally time for me to take her babies away and she doesn't appear to miss being a mom.

spaying takes away the urge to mate/reproduce completely, so a spayed rabbit is oblivious to what she's "missing out on". my two girls are happy and healthy bunnies who have never had a litter.

minmelethuireb said:

Here's another article. I don't know about breeding keeping cancer away, but it does decrease a rabbit's lifespan, because pregnancies do take toll on the rabbits' bodies.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/breeding.html

"In addition to the danger of cancer, gestation, birth and raising a litter take a large toll on a doe's health. Wild rabbits live only one or two years before the rigors of natural life (including the high expense of the high rate of reproduction) take their toll.

Most breeder rabbits, often forced to raise several litters a year, don't last beyond the age of four or five, when the body begins to break down under the constant strain of reproduction, and their "productivity" starts to lag.

In contrast, a well-cared for spayed/neutered house rabbit can live more than ten years. Spay/neuter will allow your bunny to have rabbit companions without the stress of constant sex drive, and will reduce aggression and destructive behaviors such as carpet chewing, digging and spraying"

They remove the ovaries and the uterus, just like with cats and dogs, so they won't get those kinds of cancer. The only danger is if you wait too long and the rabbit develops cancer in those areas before you spay her, because it may have already spread. Often the cancer spreads to the rabbits lungs, and that's what kills them.

I hope I don't sound like I'm lecturing or arguing with you, I just think it's good to be well-educated about this issue.

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I just wanted to add some stuff because I actually have experience with breeding. I have a doe who is about 4 years old. She is nowhere close to dying because of reproducing. I have known lots of breeders who have breeding rabbits live to be in the high teens, male and female. The reason most rabbits in the show/breeding world do not last after they stop producing is because breeders utilize means of harvesting these animals and it is usually not due to the strains of breeding(apart from no longer producing).

i find it interesting...I breed rabbits. I've had well bred rabbits live for 14 years. The whole....breed a rabbit shorten it's life thing...I'm sorry...that's for the birds.

The reason breeding rabbits have shorter lives is that once they are no longer useful in a breeding herd they are removed from it. Can that mean a shortened life span? yes. but it can also mean a life in a different type of setting.

There are people who buy retired herd animals and have them continue to live with them quite nicely for several years.

I DO NOT buy into the "you have to spay/neuter them" in order for them to live longer.

In the past year I've had TWO people come to me. They want a new rabbit because their's developed uterine cancer and has since passed away, one gal in TEARS because she was told that the surgery would stop that from ever happening. BOTH rabbits had been spayed. So I KNOW for a FACT that spaying DOES NOT remove all possibilities of cancer. Cancer happens..sometimes due to age, sometimes due to pre-existing genetic factors.

What spaying/neutering does is remove the behaviours associated with bunny hormones. That's all it does.

AND if your bunny is either predisposed to being a "pain in the rear" well...neutering isn't going to stop that. That's where training and understanding YOUR particular bunny comes into play. Many rabbits do not need to be spayed/neutered to make for being an excellent pet, but for others it becomes a life saver.

So do what seems right for YOUR particular bunny. That's all you can really do.

uhh... spaying, at least the way 95% of the vets in the US do it, prevents uterine cancer **100%** of the time because the uterus is REMOVED during the spay. you can't get cancer in an organ that doesn't exist. I realize not ALL vets do it that way - spays where only the ovaries have been removed are common in the UK and, judging from your post, apparently Canada as well... but when talking about spaying in the US (where the OP lives), it's very rare for a vet to not remove both organs.

also, just because spaying doesn't remove ALL possibility of all cancers of the reproductive system doesn't mean that it doesn't *drastically* reduce the chance from "almost certainly will get cancer" to "almost certainly won't". not all unspayed females get cancer and not all spayed females don't... but you can't dispute the FACT that spaying dramatically changes the odds to be in the bunny's favor.

as for breeding shortening a rabbit's life... yeah, BAD breeding (constant back-to-back litters) probably does. good breeders, however, won't over-breed their rabbits and will give their bodies enough of a break for it to not take a toll on them in the long run.

Thanks everybody. It is an interesting discussion.
Having children is certainly stressful for human beings as well, but it doesn't stop anybody from doing it
Yes I know that rabbit mom would not need her babies longer than she is nursing, but we got extended family as a result of one time breeding (which really changed my older rabbits' lives to better, as I think). I know you can say that I could go to shelter and adopt some bunnies. I always amazed to read about difficulties people have bonding rabbits together, even saying that some rabbits can't be bonded. At least, we didn't have any problems with this. They always lived all together just fine.