Advice

I thought i'd remind everyone out there to sift the advice of moderators and members. Some may have good intentions, and still be terribly wrong. If something doesn't seem right to you, please use your common sense.

If in doubt CONSULT A VETERINARIAN. PLEASE. They are educated and licenced. And even then, QUESTION EVERYTHING! The lives of helpless animals are at stake. They need and deserve their caretakers (us)to be responsible.

Irresponsiblilty, bad care, and bad advice are deplorable. And SHAME ON THOSE WHO ARE GUILTY OF THESE THINGS.

PS- KARMA DOESN"T FORGET!

:highfive:couldnt have said it better!

Sometimes an excess of information can be confusing. Access to a bun-savvy vet is crucial, yet we all still learn by trial & error. Sometimes there is no single right answer because rabbits & their conditions can differ.

I would try to get a consensus of views, proceed cautiously, & then turn to my vet if things get out of hand. If you have doubts from the get-go, then see your vet first. Better to pay for what may be a small problem than to have things turn serious. In time you will gain confidence in handling many common bun ailments. Also bookmark some solid online sites dealing with bun health issues.

Bunman wrote:

Sometimes an excess of information can be confusing. Access to a bun-savvy vet is crucial, yet we all still learn by trial & error. Sometimes there is no single right answer because rabbits & their conditions can differ.

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This is so true - about the BUNNY-SAVVY vet. As I read the original post I was thinking about how important it is to make sure that the vet you see knows bunnies - because they can do far more harm than those of us on the forum can do.

For example, there are vets that say "don't feed your rabbit after X pm if they're coming in for a neuter" and we know that it is important that the rabbits still eat since they don't throw up.

I've heard of vets who said spaying isn't really that important - when we know for does - it is important that they get spayed to decrease the risk of cancer.

Remember - when you choose a vet - you are quite literally - putting your rabbit in THEIR hands. So choose wisely.

Peg

Bunman wrote:

Sometimes an excess of information can be confusing. Access to a bun-savvy vet is crucial, yet we all still learn by trial & error. Sometimes there is no single right answer because rabbits & their conditions can differ.

I would try to get a consensus of views, proceed cautiously, & then turn to my vet if things get out of hand. If you have doubts from the get-go, then see your vet first. Better to pay for what may be a small problem than to have things turn serious. In time you will gain confidence in handling many common bun ailments. Also bookmark some solid online sites dealing with bun health issues.

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Great reminder, Nicky, and excellent advice Bunman!

It's a very complicated business, and the smallest differences in situations can make a huge difference in the treatment. Case in point:someone complained that another site was recommending mineral oil for bunnies going into stasis, something that's probablyrecommended by some vets and breeders. However, many other sites and other vetsrecommendhydration-- water, unflavored Pedialyte, etc.When there's that kind of confusion,many people will simply do both. But the mineral oil blocks the water fromhydrating the mass, so they can eliminate each other's benefits. While the vets may not even agree on this course of treatment, given much thought and research, the LOGICAL solution is to try and hydrate the mass first, and if that doesn't work, then try mineral oil.

But for people to dig in their heels and say one treatment is wrong and one is right, it's just not that simple.

Another case: gut motility drugs. What a difference a millimeter makes. If there's a mass that hasn't entirely blocked the system, they can work. But ifthe mass has moved just a fraction and the system is blocked, they can be detrimental. Only an xray will give that info. And Nutrical:some nutritionists have pointed out that for underweight and many ailing bunnies, its great, butif it'sgiven to a young bunny that's not eating anything else, its no different than sudden and drastic diet change that bunny owners are always warned about. Pain meds: One school of thought is they can suppress the appetite. Another is that pain suppresses the appetite and the drugs are crucial.

It's not so much knowing who to believe asmuch as when to believe them.

Also, while breeder tricks passed on through the years can certainly work, as evidenced by the second hand story passed along by Peg, its also agood idea to check and see what the most recentopinions are.Bunny health is an ever-evolving science.

SAS and PIPP :bunnydance:

I was given a rabbit that turned out to have a major abcess/lump type thing. My vet was out of town when I discovered it and I talked to another breeder who had been breeding for years and sent her photos of it. It was in the dewlap area.

I was told to take a string or elastic band and tie it around the abcess as tight as possible - and to keep tightening it as the abcess would shrink. It took about a month but the abcess fell completely off - I think we adjusted the string 3 times during that month - making it tighter each time.

In this case - it was obviously an older abcess type thing and it was barely attached to the dewlap at all. It was about golf ball size.

I was also treating the rabbit with antibiotics (just in case). When I talked to the vet and told her what I'd done - she said she'd never heard of the trick but to keep an eye on it and let her know what happened. She is a great vet but she also said that sometimes older breeders know tricks like these and to save the rabbit the stress of a trip in the hot car during the summer months (no air conditioning) she felt like I could keep an eye on this and treat it with the meds. I called her again when it fell off and described what it looked like and she said it sounded fine and to just watch for it in case it developed again - which it never did.

I'm not saying everyone should do this - in fact, I always recommend going to see the vet for stuff like this if you can. But in this case - the trick seemed to work and I was told it was an 'old trick breeders have used for years'.....

Anyway - the doe does seem fine. I think that a lot of the reason it worked is that this was just barely attached to her though...

Peg


Am I the only one that sees this as insane and some of the worst advice I've ever seen in my life? Are you all so afraid of offending someone that you won't even speak out about things you know darn well are wrong?

People new to rabbits and this forum are going to see this post and think hey what the hell I am going to save money on a vet visit and do this myself. You will have those rabbits pain and possible deaths on your heads.

How hard is it to research the net for information? Since when did you become a darn vet. So many times you say the vet is too far and would stress the rabbits. I hate to say it but sometimes I wonder if it's not just the fact you don't want to spend the money or drive that far. Abcesses are not to be taken lightly and to act as if they are is foolish.

Cutting it open with more or less a box cutter. I am phsically ill just thinking about some novice attempting this at home to save a few bucks. How do you people sleep at night?

I can't believe no onehad the guts to stand up and say this is wrong. You are more or less saying you can treat abcesses at home. Oh sure you say seek a vet but why would they. They see that your barbaric methods work.

You all need to seriously consider what is being said and done. This forum used to be great. But if this is what this forum has been reduced to I can understand why so many left and are still leaving. Now I am ashamed to admit I ever even knew a forum called RO.

Are you all here to help or harm the rabbits? Ask yourself that every time you post or read a post such as this.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

Opinions are deleted but gross misinformation is allowed to stay up unchallenged. I pity the rabbits I really do. With information this bad they have a sad future should they ever get an abcess.

Hopi wrote:

Am I the only one that sees this as insane and some of the worst advice I've ever seen in my life? Are you all so afraid of offending someone that you won't even speak out about things you know darn well are wrong?

People new to rabbits and this forum are going to see this post and think hey what the hell I am going to save money on a vet visit and do this myself. You will have those rabbits pain and possible deaths on your heads.

How hard is it to research the net for information? Since when did you become a darn vet. So many times you say the vet is too far and would stress the rabbits. I hate to say it but sometimes I wonder if it's not just the fact you don't want to spend the money or drive that far. Abcesses are not to be taken lightly and to act as if they are is foolish.

Cutting it open with more or less a box cutter. I am phsically ill just thinking about some novice attempting this at home to save a few bucks. How do you people sleep at night?

I can't believe no onehad the guts to stand up and say this is wrong. You are more or less saying you can treat abcesses at home. Oh sure you say seek a vet but why would they. They see that your barbaric methods work.

You all need to seriously consider what is being said and done. This forum used to be great. But if this is what this forum has been reduced to I can understand why so many left and are still leaving. Now I am ashamed to admit I ever even knew a forum called RO.

Are you all here to help or harm the rabbits? Ask yourself that every time you post or read a post such as this.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

Opinions are deleted but gross misinformation is allowed to stay up unchallenged. I pity the rabbits I really do. With information this bad they have a sad future should they ever get an abcess.


I guess i was trying to be diplomatic about this. i am not a vet, or a vet tech, and therefore didn't feel i had the right to respond directly. i knew it seemed very wrong. i was not trying to be cowardly. What you wrote was exactly what i wanted to say, but couldn't.

Nicole

Just one more thing if I may. When people are giving step by step instructions on how to treat something as serious as an abcess how is that prompting them to see a vet.

There are not one but 2 examples of how to home vet an abcess in the Abcess thread alone. Now are there are going to be people that for lack of funds, ease of treatment, whatever, trying this at home. While it is up to each person to do what they feel is best is it not each and everyone's responsibilty to set the example. What example is being set here.

People will not know a tumor from an abcess so please explain to me how this is helping rabbits? I mean really explain it to me.
Because all I see is some truly horrific and barbaricadvise being dished out and it is being left that way. So now anyone can just do a search and wow look at this home treating an abcess. Please use your heads. You are putting coutless rabbits health, and even lives on the line.

Hopi wrote:

Cutting it open with more or less a box cutter. I am phsically ill just thinking about some novice attempting this at home to save a few bucks. How do you people sleep at night?

I can't believe no onehad the guts to stand up and say this is wrong. You are more or less saying you can treat abcesses at home. Oh sure you say seek a vet but why would they. They see that your barbaric methods work.

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Per ARBA handbook "Official Guide Book: Raising Better Rabbits & Cavies" - from the American Rabbit Breeders Association, Inc. Copyright 2000. Page 193 under "Medical Management"

I am not going to type all of it because it is fairly long - but here is the clinical signs & prognosis.

Abcesses:

Clinical Sign: A lump may be found anywhere on the body, however, commonly they are found around the head and shoulders.

Prognosis: Good if treated early... (NOW HERE IS THEIR TREATMENT FOLKS!)..

The abcess should be lanced with a scalpel, making a large incision from which to drain the pus. The wound should be flushed with hydrogen peroxide or iodine solution daily. Use of a broad spectrum injectable antibiotic for 3-5 days may be indicated.

~~~

The same method is discussed in these books:

Encyclopedia of Pet Rabbits by David Robinson - copyright 1979 pgs 302 & 303

Lop Rabbits as Pets by Sandy Crook - copyright 1986 - pg. 122 & 123 (which gives VERY detailed instructions on how to do this - even down to the needle size for flushing but it is pretty gross to read)

Rabbit Production by Cheeke, Patton, Lukefahr & McNitt - 6th edition - pages 216 & 217

I may be able to find it in more of my books also. However, in these books it instructs people how they can do it themselves.

And I don't use a box cutter...sorry if I made it seem that way!

Peg

The contested thread is this one:

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11329&forum_id=1&page=1

Hopi has already posted this same note in that thread. The opposing opinion has been displayed. We thank her for that.

The thread alsoincludes a dozen other different opinions and experiences, most of them saying to call a vet, including the one that seems to have offended a group of people. The two opinions specified by Hopi are both clearly stated as personal experiences, they do not strongly recommend the treatment or profess to be experts.

The forum is working as it should.

ALL opinions are welcome here, and it is a very good thing people are not accepting treatment ideas as gospel.People are very welcome to disagree! However, for future reference, they are not welcome to beat it into the ground, so now that people have aired their side of the issue,they can let it can rest, although more personal experiences are always welcome.

It should also be pointed out that the group of people complaining about the posts in question do havea history of 'ill will' with one of the posters, which may be 'coloring' thoseopinions. They may be valid, sothose opinions will remain on the board so members can make up their own minds, but its best when all facts are stated, and that is a fact.

We trust this will not become a personal issue. (We will insist on that!)

Thank you all for your input!

RO Staff

I may read a book on how exactly open heart surgery is performed. it doesn't mean i'm qualified to perform such a task.

the main problem is to suggest, or encourage someone to do a procedure they are aren't qualified to do. anything that risks an animals health is very bad, and when information is put out there, you must consider how it will be taken.

TinysMom wrote:

Hopi wrote:

Cutting it open with more or less a box cutter. I am phsically ill just thinking about some novice attempting this at home to save a few bucks. How do you people sleep at night?

I can't believe no onehad the guts to stand up and say this is wrong. You are more or less saying you can treat abcesses at home. Oh sure you say seek a vet but why would they. They see that your barbaric methods work.

Click to expand...

Per ARBA handbook "Official Guide Book: Raising Better Rabbits & Cavies" - from the American Rabbit Breeders Association, Inc. Copyright 2000. Page 193 under "Medical Management"

I am not going to type all of it because it is fairly long - but here is the clinical signs & prognosis.

Abcesses:

Clinical Sign: A lump may be found anywhere on the body, however, commonly they are found around the head and shoulders.

Prognosis: Good if treated early... (NOW HERE IS THEIR TREATMENT FOLKS!)..

The abcess should be lanced with a scalpel, making a large incision from which to drain the pus. The wound should be flushed with hydrogen peroxide or iodine solution daily. Use of a broad spectrum injectable antibiotic for 3-5 days may be indicated.

~~~

The same method is discussed in these books:

Encyclopedia of Pet Rabbits by David Robinson - copyright 1979 pgs 302 & 303

Lop Rabbits as Pets by Sandy Crook - copyright 1986 - pg. 122 & 123 (which gives VERY detailed instructions on how to do this - even down to the needle size for flushing but it is pretty gross to read)

Rabbit Production by Cheeke, Patton, Lukefahr & McNitt - 6th edition - pages 216 & 217

I may be able to find it in more of my books also. However, in these books it instructs people how they can do it themselves.

And I don't use a box cutter...sorry if I made it seem that way!

Peg

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The comparison box cutter was another post in the same thread.



Also look at the dates on the sources you are quoting, From 2000 and the other is 1986. Both are at least six years old.

You are still missing the whole point. You are setting a precident for others to attempt these procedures at home. It doesn't matter how many sources you quote it is STILL WRONG!

There are young members, impressionable kids on this forum with parents thst are not willing to spend money on vet care. What are you going to tell that kid that tries this crap at home and their rabbit dies. Opps sorry.

It sure as hell won't bring that rabbit back. Why is it so hard to admit that perhaps that and home lancing SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSTED.

Nicky Snow wrote:

I may read a book on how exactly open heart surgery is performed. it doesn't mean i'm qualified to perform such a task.

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LOL!Moderators aren't supposed to express opinions, but that's a pretty good line!


Nicky Snow wrote:

the main problem is to suggest, or encourage someone to do a procedure they are aren't qualified to do. anything that risks an animals health is very bad, and when information is put out there, you must consider how it will be taken.

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I think we're all in agreement here. Take all advice with a grain of salt (if not a pound) and see a vet. If you see advice that you think is detrimental, by all means post something about it.

We're approaching the 'beating' phase, people. We don't want to see this thread locked.

RO Staff

RO STAFF wrote:

It should also be pointed out that the group of people complaining about the posts in question do havea history of 'ill will' with one of the posters, which may be 'coloring' thoseopinions. They may be valid, sothose opinions will remain on the board so members can make up their own minds, but its best when all facts are stated, and that is a fact.

We trust this will not become a personal issue. (We will insist on that!)

Thank you all for your input!

RO Staff

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I will ofificially say that I am also complaining about the post in question and I have no 'ill will' against anyone, so my opinion is in no way 'colored' as you put it.

And just as an after thought - you shouldn't really bring personal issues between members of the board up onthe public board as THIS is making it into a personal issue. JMO.

By the way - I love rabbits. :bunnydance:

________
Nadia

People have a right to post whatever advice they want, and other members have the right to disagree or ignore it as they see fit. If a member feels that something is dangerous or harmful, they are certainly welcome to discuss it with the poster and offer their own opinions in a respectful manner. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The whole point of this board is to see everyone's advice and then make an educated choice.

If the person that ones the abscessed rabbit don't want information they should not have asked in the first place. They were asking for peoples opinion and got it. nobody said to do any thing they were just giving there opinion. It is there choice what they want to do after all it is there rabbit.

bunnydude wrote:

People have a right to post whatever advice they want, and other members have the right to disagree or ignore it as they see fit. If a member feels that something is dangerous or harmful, they are certainly welcome to discuss it with the poster and offer their own opinions in a respectful manner. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The whole point of this board is to see everyone's advice and then make an educated choice.

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i considered this dealt with. I don't feel this response was necessary. We as members are already aware that "personal attacks will not be tolerated"

I'd like to add something--just personal experience, and not intended to cause discord--but another perspective.

It is very true that information can be used wrong and should be offered with great care and a disclaimer: NOT INFALLIBLE ADVICE!However, this has been my experience: I have often personally had better luck in emergencies with breeders' tipsthan vet wisits, and after 13 yrs. of raising, I often find, just because they deal only with cats and dogs, that an inexperienced vet can create major problems. I lost a buck that I loved very much because of a vet's very preventable mistake. He was careless in his prescription and didn't check safety for rabbits. A breeder saved me a vet visit with Fenny recently because she'd experienced the same thing with one of her lops. She was right. And then I go to the vet here and they don't even know how to pick a rabbit up.....:X

The breeders' and others' advice on the forum has been very valuable, often saving both time and money and lives. It's not infallible, and it's everyone's responsibility to sift it through objectively. And if you have a good vet, that's pretty near heaven. Trust them, and go there first. I don't have a good vet, and if it weren't for local breeders and the like, I would not have known what to do in many situations.

It's good to have perspectives and opinions, but none are infallible. I'm glad we have both on the forum: people recommending vet care, and people offering alternatives, because each situation is different. Some young owners are starting out with their first rabbit, and shouldn't try to deal with things alone. Other frustrated people like myself have no vets as resources, have gotten badly burned, are experienced in handling, and are desperate for something to doin an emergency when there's no one to call.I don't necessarily abide by all of the advice I'm given, but I like to know what others have tried and been through. One nice thing about a forum is that you get so many ideas to discuss.

It is TOUGH to be "on the ground" dealing with an emergency when no vet is available. I will say from experience, that in heartbreak and fear,I'm thankful from the bottom of my heart to all those who offered advice of all sorts, because they cared--whether I took it or not.

So thank you all for opinions freely and kindly expressed. :great:

Rose