To Hay or Not to Hay!

I'm not an expert at all, but i do know thatloads of research has been done with horses and hay. alfalfa is high insugars and things of that nature. timothy hay is the optimum choicethat the majority of the horse owners such as myself opt for, it'shealthier for the horse and keeps them slimmer. i personally feedtimothy.

hay needs to be:

• sweet smelling
• dust free
• green, not brown
• free of lots of flowers and stem "heads" (this means it was cut later in the season, with less nutritional value)
• the important nutrients in hay gets destroyed over time

ellie

My vet who is a rabbit specialist (he hasspecialised for ten years) has always said to me that Timothy hay isbest. Alfalfa is too rich. He actually recommendsthat you should feed less food to encourage them to eat hay (obviouslynot starving them) but he can't recommend hay use highly enough.

How's the experiment coming along, Buck?

Ellie

*bump*

Bramble Briar86 wrote:

How's the experiment coming along, Buck?

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Hmm, it would appear five of the six rabbits we own are enjoying thenew, expensive compressed grass hay quite extensively. Ourwidowed doe does not appear to eat it more readily than any other hayspreviously given. The problem with the two bonded couples isit is difficult to be sure both hutch mates are eating itequally. There is no doubt Ernestine has taken toit and I have to replace hay much more frequently in the couples'hutches, indicating one or more is digesting quite a bit. Inspite of its "compressed" state it is still be used up quickly, so itis fair to say it will not prove to be more economical in the long run.

Every bun gets about a cup of greens daily under this newregimen. They have largely been spinach or hearts of romaineand they all disappear readily. Each bun also receives 1/6 thto 1/4 th of a piece of fruit daily, usually apple or pear because theyare inexpensive and keep so well. In addition, they receivethree to five pieces of dried papaya or pineapple weekly. I,then, reduced pellet rations to less than one ounce of pellet per poundof rabbit.

Results....inconclusive. All the buns appearhealthy. Usually, all pellets are gone, but occasionally somewill be left over. In those cases I often do not add anypellets, or only enough to go back to slightly less than an ounce perpound.

I've cut back more on the pellets with our widowed doe, Mitzie, becauseshe has a tendency to deposit excessive cecotropes on thewire. Than tendency has been minimized under the new regimenand she show no adverse reactions that I can tell.

Ernestine(house rabbit) ran into a molt....normal, diet changeinduced? I do not know, but because her coat was so dry, Ibegan to add wheat germ oil to her greens. That seemed tomoisten up her coat to a shiney appearance and help her get through themolt relatively quickly.

Problem with "experiments" like this, is that "stuff" comesalong. We'll be in California for three weeks and I cannotexpect the bunny sitter to spend the time and effort on feeding thebuns I would. I don't expect her to "vege" them or monitorMitzies' cecotropes, or keep track of who is or is not eating hay, orbuying and chopping fruit daily....so it is "bread and water" for theoutside buns for the three weeks. Pellets, hay and whatevertreats the sitter does on her own.

Ernestine, comes out the best here because I saw Tucker Town residentssupplying her with "human" greens on more than one occasion last weweekend when we visited. I wouldn't and didn't expecttreatment anything different than Tucker Town residents receive, sothat was, indeed, a bonus for Ernestine.

Conclusions....I will buy the hay again, if still available.Even if it is not any better, it sure is fun watching Ernestine pack itaway here in her cage in the house. She didn't eat as muchwith the previous hay.

I will continue feeding greens and fruit when I return because it itobvious the buns do enjoy it so. It is supposed to be fairlyhealthy for them and if they enjoy it so, I'll provide it for them.

All the buns appear healthy under this regimen, other than Ernestine'sbout with ivermectine poisoning, which was another matter alltogether. Are they healthier? I cannot saythat in all honesty. Certainly not appearing any the worsefor wear.

Buck

Cool, Buck. So, the whole "study" was to seewhether or not a more "natural" or alfalfa diet would be healthier? Didyou notice any weight gain or other "little" stuff like that?

Ellie

All but one gained slightly, however I had wantedthat to occur for the winter. Synopsisthen: pellets reduced slightly; newexpensive hay free feed; greens almost every day; fruitalmost everyday. Results: five buns increasedweights; one bun held her own weight; five buns ingested new hayprofusely.

All buns appear healthy.

Buck

*Bump* for Kyo.

Bump

Before the pelleted rabbit feed was widespread,breeders typically fed their rabbits alfalfa hay, grain mixtures andgreens. This was very time consuming but the rabbits tended to do well.Then a "balanced diet" pellet was marketed, it contained all thenutritional requirements of rabbits. This was great! best thing sincesliced bread, allowed breeders to increase numbers raised. but thenMucoid Enteritis (now more correctly called Mucoid Enteropathy) rearedit's ugly head, causing wide spread losses in many herds. At that timemills made rabbit pellets by regrinding alfalfa pellets, adding otheringredients and then producing the rabbit feed. This resulted in a veryfine fiber component in the feed, usually too fine to be of use inscrubbing the gut lining. breeders began adding fiber to their rabbits'diet.They wanted acoarse fiber sourcew/oupsetting the balanced diet provided by the pellets. Many began usingtimothy hay as it was often available, others used orchard grass orsome other grass hay or even straw. Breeders feed hay daily, along withtheir pellets, things were great. This was how things were when I beganbreeding show rabbits in 1978. Then through research at OSU RabbitResearch Center (closed in 1992), Purina's research farm and others, itwas found that less grinding of the alfalfa gave a pellet with coarserfiber and less, if any, fiber supplementation was needed. Even withthis coarser pellet many people continue to feed extra fiber, more outof habit, or because somebody told me to, than out ofnecessity.About ten years ago I began feeding grass hay onlyduring molt, to does pulling fur and to kits during transition periodbetween dam's milk and solid food. For the past 5 years, or so, I'veused Purina Show Formula (blue bag).

With the relatively new role of the domestic rabbit as a pet many seeka more "natural" diet. A natural diet for the European Rabbit, fromwhich all our domestic breeds are derived, would be pants and grassesand brush of the countryside of continental Europe and UK. It wouldn'tbe hay or pellets, little grain.

My one and only pet rabbit was a New Zealand White I won in an Easterdrawing when I was 12 (long, long......long ago). We were unable tofind rabbit feed anywhere in our county (1960) and were able to raiseBugs to a ripe old age on a diet of greens, Quaker Oats, carrots anddried grass from our lawn. Bugs grew up big and strong, grazed our backlawnand delighted in chasing our neighbor's dog out of ouryard.

If I were to raise a pet rabbit today, I think I'd feed alfalfa hay,occasional treats of dry cob (Corn, Oats, Barley w/o molasses) andgarden greens and since no pellets to provide salt I'd provide a saltwheel. And lots of fresh water. I'd let it run on an enclosed lawn, toplay and graze. Escapees from my barn have lived and multiplied formany years in the field around my barn. If I were to give pellets, itwould be a small measured amount, 1 oz (weight) per pound, then I'd usea grass hay, like timothy or orchard grass, and still keep grains andgreens to status of occasional treat.

Well....that's my thoughts and opinions, what's been working for me.

Thank you So Much, Rick. :bouquet:

That definitely helps me to understand a lot.

I had called the people in Australia who had Flopsy - the oldest rabbitin the Guiness Book of World Records. The conditions of what Flopsy wasraised in were much like you describe, however, he was a wild rabbit;from what I understand, not too much different from our own.

Will "bump up" the post on Flopsy and his story. Buck and I used to goback and forth on the diet issues and we had to find out what they fedthat rabbit for it to live 18 years, 10 months, and 21 days. It seemsto me that the lifestyle Flopsy had is the one you say you'd give forlongevity and good health.

Pictures are included of the family and Flopsy that they had sent me via snail mail. I hope you enjoy.



-Carolyn

Remember that "wild" rabbits in Australia areferal European Rabbits, physiologically identical to our domesticatedrabbits and the wild rabbits of Europe. Our wild rabbits (Cottontail)and hares (jack and snowshoe) differ in genetics and physiology.

*Bumping for myself*

I have just recently introduced 'Pure Driedgrass' into Pernod and Perry's diet - mixed in with their hay. I haveto say that they absolutely love it. They even pick through the hay toget to it (although they do still eat the hay as well). It says on thepack that it has more nutrients than hay -

Protein 12%, crude fibre 28%, oil 2%, vitamin C 150mg/kg

Their poos seem to be larger, and not as dark, and they seem livelier than usual. It also smells wonderful

Jan

This is a very interesting thread; I will haveto re-read it when I can take the time to absorb what's been written(when at work I tend to skim very quickly).

When I had rabbits years ago, I raised them on a diet consisting ofmainly commercial rabbit pellets, with 'treats' every evening (usuallya bit of carrot, apple, or a touch of leaf lettuce). I also allowedthem to graze in the good weather...I had a portable pen in the yardand the rabbits would take their turns using it. They didn't have hayvery often at all...in fact if I remember correctly, for the first fewyears none of my rabbits had hay...it was just too hard for me to getsome. However, I do recall - after having them for some years - makingmy own hay for them. Our yard sat at the edge of a schoolgrounds, andthere was a huge open field that wasn't used by the children. Theschool never cut the grass - which was Timothy for the most part - so Iwould go out there and cut down huge sections of it, then spread it outin the sun to dry. (This was way back in the days before pesticide usewas wide-spread.) LOL...so my buns had *homemade* hay for quite sometime. From time to time I would give the rabbits peelings from thehumans' dinner...potato, carrot, etc...and at Christmas time I alwayssimmered the leftover raw veggie peelings and made a broth that therabbits loved. These guys seemed to thrive very well on their diet. Oh,and they all had wood in their cages to chew on, to keep their teethtrim.

Now with Raph, I feed him commercial rabbit pellets, along with a bitof rolled oats and as much hay as he wants.He also gets toroam the yard when I'm out there to watch him, so he grazes on grassand my raspberry bushes (and the mint and parsley). At first I worriedabout him free-grazing, as I didn't want his digestive system to getout of balance should he eat too many greens, but for the first fewdays I limited his time so he could adjust. Now he seems okay...if Ihave him out for 2 hours or more, he will eat a bit here and there, butnever stuffs himself on greens. And the balance seems to workwell;Raph eats a healthy amount of pellets and hay along withthe free-grazing.

I do wonder if supplementing with greens would negate the actual needfor hay. Pellets contain a pretty well-rounded balance of vitamins andminerals, and if the rabbit can either graze, or is given a blended mixof greens in some form, then would hay be necessary? (Forgive me ifthis has already been addressed, as I didn't read every post in thethread.) I did read somewherethat hay is actually good forpromoting the wearing down of their teeth...though you would think thatpellets would do so as well. And hay also promotes a healthy digestivetract/bowel movements, does it not? Does feeding pellets and greenswith the exclusion of hay provide enough roughage? Perhaps it dependsupon the breakdown of the pellets to seewhat percentage offiber is in them. However, the rabbits I had years ago (pre- myhaymaking days for them) seemed to do fine without hay in their diet.

LOL...don't know if what I wrote actually adds anything to thediscussion (I just seem to be rambling here), but thanks for letting meponder...

Bassetluv wrote:

I do wonder if supplementing with greens would negate theactual need for hay. Pellets contain a pretty well-rounded balance ofvitamins and minerals, and if the rabbit can either graze, or is givena blended mix of greens in some form, then would hay be necessary?(Forgive me if this has already been addressed, as I didn't read everypost in the thread.) I did read somewherethat hay is actuallygood for promoting the wearing down of their teeth...though you wouldthink that pellets would do so as well. And hay also promotes a healthydigestive tract/bowel movements, does it not? Does feeding pellets andgreens with the exclusion of hay provide enough roughage? Perhaps itdepends upon the breakdown of the pellets to seewhatpercentage of fiber is in them. However, the rabbits I had years ago(pre- my haymaking days for them) seemed to do fine without hay intheir diet.

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Technically, most pellets are made to be a rabbit's onlyfood. Many people have fed their rabbits on mainlypellets without any health problems. That being said, fewhave anywhere near the same fiber content of hay. Most hayhas around 30% fiber, while most pellets have around 20% orless.

Pellets are crushed, not chewed, with the back teeth. Thiscrushing motion is different from the motions they use in eating hayand greens. Pellet-only diets can contribute to uneven molarwear in some rabbits. Pellets generally don't get cut withthe incisors, so they don't get worn down from them. However,greens get eaten in the same way as hay so they can help wear down theteeth in a more normal way. They just aren't as tough to chewas hay.

I personally feed hay and a high fiber pellet, Oxbow Timothy which has25-29% fiber. I've seen an improvement in bowel functions andsuch since I switched to this.

I have just found out that Snowy's eyes were doto hay fever. This caused a lot of stress to both him and me and he hadme really worried for a time.

I was just wondering if anybody else has a rabbit with hay fever andwhat they do because Snowy loves his hay so much. Its the totalelimination of the hay that has made his eyes clear up.

I know he can live on just his food and the occasional green, but thisis my rabbit foods nutritional content. I think maybe the fibre maybe abit too low. If so is there anyone in the UK that can reccomend a goodpellet based food as I am currently giving mine the Wagg Bunny Brunch(says it is whole health nutrition but..)

Protein..............14%

Oil......................4.0%

Fibre..................9.0%

Ash....................5.0%

Vitamin A............5.0%

Vitamin D3..........6000 iu/kg

Vitamin E as Alpha Tocopherol..........40 iu/kg

Copper as Cupric Sulphate...............16 mg/kg

I think I have heard too that Ash is not healthy.

This food is nugget based with pellets.However,thereis no bright coloured things in it. I am just worriedabout the actual nutritional content, if I was toleave Snowywithoutthehay.

Daisy and Buster are having hay like normal.

Thanks

Vickie

I wonder if the nutrition info has differentstandards than in the US? I've never seen fiber that low inrabbit food before! Sorry I can't recommend abrand. I don't know what you have over there.

Have you tried using compressed timothy? It eliminates thedust and may not cause the allergic problems. It's worth atry.

Pellets are crushed, not chewed, with theback teeth. This crushing motion is different from the motions they usein eating hay and greens. Pellet-only diets can contribute to unevenmolar wear in some rabbits. Pellets generally don't get cut with theincisors, so they don't get worn down from them. However, greens geteaten in the same way as hay so they can help wear down the teeth in amore normal way. They just aren't as tough to chew as hay.

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Naturestree, thank you...LOL...I had a big "duh" moment when I readwhat you wrote! Guess I wasn't thinking when I was questioning whetherpellets would promote the wearing down of a rabbit's incisors. What youwrote makes perfect sense.

Vickie, I found one article online that addresses nutrition in rabbits,and according to this one it claims that a rabbit should get a minimumof 18% fiber in commercial pelleted feed. I checked the label on myrabbit pellets (which is called 'Hi-Fiber Diet') and it contains 25%fiber. There's quite a bit of difference between yours and mine...minealso contains twice as much ash as yours (10%). I'd be interested toknow what a good balance actually is in all of the essential nutrients.Some opinions seem to have changed over the years too...I found an oldarticle I had that was put out in the mid-60s by the National ResearchCouncil about rabbits, and it recommended alfalfa hay as the best tofeed to rabbits. Now they say that alfalfa should be switched totimothy as the rabbit matures.

Here's a portion of the article, along with it's link:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=1638

The nucleus of any good adult rabbit diet consists of qualitypellets, fresh hay, water, and fresh vegetables. Anything other thanthese basics should be considered a "treat" and be given in limitedquantities. The amounts of these diet essentials varies with the age ofthe rabbit. Diet essentials
Pellets: Pellets are most important in the younger stages of rabbitdevelopment because they are highly concentrated in nutrients, helpingto ensure proper weight gain. A quality pelleted food should be high infiber (18% minimum) and nutritionally balanced. As a rabbit reachesmaturity, however, pellets should make up less of the diet – replacedwith higher quantities of hay and vegetables. Overfeeding pellets inmature rabbits can lead to obesity and other medical conditions.
Hay: Rabbits should have fresh hay available 24 hours a day. Rabbitsless than 7 months old may have alfalfa hay, but older rabbits shouldhave grass hays such as timothy or oat hay. Hay is essential to arabbit's good health, providing the roughage that helps reduce thedanger of hairballs and other blockages.
Water: Fresh water should be available to your pet around the clock,as well. Each day, change the water in the dish or water bottle withfresh water. On a weekly basis, sanitize the water dish/bottle with amild dish detergent and rinse thoroughly before adding drinkingwater.
Vegetables: Vegetables provide valuable roughage, as well asessential vitamins. As early as 3 months of age, you can begin to offervegetables. Introduce new vegetables one at a time. This way, if adigestive upset occurs, you will know which food may be the culprit.Eliminate those that cause soft stools or diarrhea. Continue to add newvarieties, including both dark leafy vegetables and root vegetables,and serve vegetables of different colors. Once your rabbit is used toseveral vegetables, feed him or her at least three different kindsdaily for a mix of nutrients.

Vickie, the pellets I use are called ScienceSelective, and I think most of the larger pet stores have it - my vetsalso sells it. It has 19% fibre in it. I don't feed a lot of pellets -they mostly get hay, veggies, greens and graze outside.

Jan